25-07-2003 20:00									#1
	Basque independentists create a plan to destroy Spain and France Remove this text

I have no English link to this (Spain news have not much impact outside our borders you know) but if someone wants to check it in Spanish here it is:

El borrador del plan Ibarreche confirma su proyecto secesionista como elemento de persuasión

[EDITED]Here you can find information in English and other languages about the real situation in the Basque Country

ĄBasta ya!
[/EDITED]

And here the translation of the most important points:

- The basque autonomous government has created a draft the "Political Statute of Free Associated Comunity of Euskadi".

- This statute pretends to annul the present Guernica Statute. It also annuls several articles from the Spanish Constitution "by basque will" and contradicts what it is said in the European Constitution draft.

- The document says that "the basque people" have the right to split from the rest of Spain, and it considers that "the basque people" are the Basque autonomous region, the Navarra autonomous region and three French departments of Behenafarroa, Lapurdi and Zuberoa.

- The document gives to the basque parlament the esclusive right to decide which political parties are legal or illegal and negates any right for the Madrid institutions to say anything about this issue,

- It creates a "Tribunal of conflicts Euskadi-Spain" which has the right in exclusive to judge the basque people, instead of the National Court, the Supreme Court and the Consitutional court.

- It creates a "basque nationality" and a basque social security.

- And the most amazing thing: If the Spanish parlament doesn't aprove this in 5 months, they "reserve for themselves the right" to approve it. So the "negotiation" period called in the document is a negotiation in one sense. Either you agree with me or I will do it anyway.

Last edited by OliverFA on 26-07-2003 at 03:46

	25-07-2003 20:07									#2
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hi ,

and just how are those two bit terrorists planning on the take over of france and spain , ......

with paratroops or icbm's , .....

hang all those terrorists on the highest trees you can find , .....

have a nice day

	25-07-2003 20:10									#3
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I think they are trying to do it by cultural conversion They are using Civ4 in which some parts of your country can invent their own culture and become indpendent.

And thanks for the advice!

	25-07-2003 20:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA I think they are trying to do it by cultural conversion They are using Civ4 in which some parts of your country can invent their own culture and become indpendent. And thanks for the advice!

hi ,

they generate about one point zero one culture , ......


have a nice day

	25-07-2003 20:16									#5
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Give them a devolved government. They will be so busy arguing over what to do with even a little power that nothing significant will happen.

	25-07-2003 20:19									#6
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In fact they do have a lot of power. Spain is one of the most decentralized estates in the world. Probably only after Switzerland.

They were given some competences and power as a cake to make them content, but they always want more. (And by the way they have governed terribly poorly because 300,000 basque people have emigrated to other parts of Spain in the last 20 years) For them anything less that total independence is too few.

	25-07-2003 20:25									#7
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quote: They are using Civ4 in which some parts of your country can invent their own culture and become indpendent.

Hmm. Invent their own culture. The oldest surviving people in Europe. Right.
What's the problem with independence for the Basques anyway? I mean, what's the big deal anyway?

	25-07-2003 20:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA And by the way they have governed terribly poorly because 300,000 basque people have emigrated to other parts of Spain in the last 20 years.

That is just the point. Carry on for another twenty years and there will be no-one left in the Basque region to argue about independence.

	25-07-2003 20:32									#9
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV That is just the point. Carry on for another twenty years and there will be no-one left in the Basque region to argue about independence.

True. It is called "ethnic cleaning" or something like this (I don't know the exact translation to English.

	25-07-2003 20:37									#10
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yep, let them be independend. end of story.

	25-07-2003 20:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Firelad Hmm. Invent their own culture. The oldest surviving people in Europe. Right.

Of course. Everyone knows that the basque people are older than anyone else in Europe. All of them are 2000 years old (but very well conserved )

Everyone knows that the "ikurriņa" is not an invented flag. The story about that basque independentist getting the British flag and changing its colours is invented by Madrid

Everyone knows that the "typical basque restaurants" have existed forever. In fact the Chineese inspired in them to create their own variety of local restaurants...

quote: What's the problem with independence for the Basques anyway? I mean, what's the big deal anyway?

For starting, the majority of basques themselve don't want the independence. So this independentist groups is imposing their criteria to all the others and arrognatly speaking in the name of everyone.

On the other hand which right do they have to destroy our country? They can decide about something that will affect the whole Spain and the Spanish cannot say nothing about it? That's a curious way of understanding democracy.

	25-07-2003 20:48									#12
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being a believer in primordialism, i don't think you'll be able to acheive peace so long as ethnic groups like the basque have a huge chip on their shoulder for feeling second class in other countried dominated by other ethnic groups.

let them have a small country. let them keep it. it might lower the incidence of terrorist acts.

	25-07-2003 20:49									#13
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Yes, but has their local Government the Right to Declare Independence of their Territory?

If yes let them declare Independence.
Or demand that there has to be a poll within the Basque Region about declaring independence and that it will only be ratified, if a majority of the Basques is pro Independence.

If you say that a majority of the Basques are against it there wonīt be much danger that the Poll will be successful (of course there have to be observers which grant that there are no tries to manipulate the poll )

After all, what does Spain loose with the Basque Territory?
Are there many important Resources or large industrial Plants, which are important for Spain?

Even if they really get Independence, as other posters already mentioned, it sounds as if they might return to SPain after a few years, with their head bowed low.

And as France will never give them those Territorys they seem to claim out of french soil, they will have little to work with, to create a functioning state

	25-07-2003 20:51									#14
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Has the issue of independence ever been put to a vote?

	25-07-2003 20:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it might lower the incidence of terrorist acts.

Which reason do you have to believe it? None of the MANY concessions given to them, which are not only but a group of all the basque people has lowered it.

	25-07-2003 21:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Yes, but has their local Government the Right to Declare Independence of their Territory?

No, for many reasons being the first the article 1 of the Spanish constitution.

quote: Or demand that there has to be a poll within the Basque Region about declaring independence and that it will only be ratified, if a majority of the Basques is pro Independence.

A few weeks ago there was a poll about conceding more auto govern to the Corsica island. The majority voted no. Which was the independentists answer? The next week they put a bomb. Has this stopped them from asking for independece? No. There was a poll in Qebec about becoming independent from Canada. Did the result have any effect? No, they wanted to make another poll. Probably they think that if they do enough polls they will end winning. Has the North Ireland autonomous government solved anything? I thik not. The palestinian got their own autonomous region and a plan to become a completely independet country. Did that stop them from attacking Israel? No. The colombian government offered the guerrillas an autonomous region to low down the violence and a negotiation period. Did it have any effect? no. I could continue with many other samples.

quote: If you say that a majority of the Basques are against it there wonīt be much danger that the Poll will be successful (of course there have to be observers which grant that there are no tries to manipulate the poll )

Sadly there is no guarantee of that. In many villages people go to vote by fear. They have to choose their vote in front of everyone or they will be accused. If they choose the "wrong" option they will be prosecuted. if they come with their option made from house they will be prosecuted.

quote: After all, what does Spain loose with the Basque Territory?

What does the basque people who still want to be Spanish lose? They will probably lose their freedom, as the new government will likely be a fascist one judging from their past actions. They have a well known historial of acting against the Law, and their model is the Cuban state.

quote: Are there many important Resources or large industrial Plants, which are important for Spain?

This is not a civ game. The issue is not about giving a city which has little importance to the other player. It is about people and their way of life.

quote: And as France will never give them those Territorys they seem to claim out of french soil, they will have little to work with, to create a functioning state

Why France can hold the territories and not Spain?

	25-07-2003 21:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Has the issue of independence ever been put to a vote?

The right question is: Will the people who has had to abandon the basque country because of fear or disagreement with the government be allowed to vote? Will the people murdered by the terrorists be allowed to vote?

Sadly there is a lot of misinformation about Spain inside our borders. Lot of people still believe that the basque culture really existed (they even beleive the Romans didn't conquer the area!) ot that those terrorists are freedom fighters. They are plain assassins. That's the reason because Spain supports the US in their fight against terrorism. Sadly we know it very well.

	25-07-2003 21:15									#18
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I think anyone originally from the region should be allowed to vote on the issue of independence. We, the US, constantly give the peoples of our territories, such a Puerto Rico, the right to vote on the issue of independence. I don't understand why this is not the right solution for the Basque territories as well.

	25-07-2003 21:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think anyone originally from the region should be allowed to vote on the issue of independence. We, the US, constantly give the peoples of our territories, such a Puerto Rico, the right to vote on the issue of independence. I don't understand why this is not the right solution for the Basque territories as well.

Among many reasons because the government has made a very good propaganda and brain washing job. The school books for children tell lies about Spain and make them hate our country. On the other hand the situation isn't the same. Puerto Rico is a free state that might join or not join the US. The "basque country" (even the name is a triumph of the propaganda) is a completely different thing.

	25-07-2003 21:19									#20
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Well, Northern Ireland remains part of the UK because the people of those counties voted to stay. If the people of the Basque territories voted to stay with Spain and France, then I would agree that armed resistance should be fought. Otherwise, I am not so sure that armed resistance is not "legal" in the same sense as our own rebellion against Britain 200 years ago was legal.

	25-07-2003 21:23									#21
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If you haven't noticed it yet, the independentists don't care about what people think. There is no freedom to speak or to act there. A referendum cannot be done at those circumstancies. Would you believe the results of such a referendum?

	25-07-2003 21:24									#22
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Oliver, Just a little bit of history please: Wasn't the Basque territory part of the Roman Empire? All the maps that I have seen seem to suggest that it was.

But if it was, why didn't Latin take hold there as it did elsewhere in Gaul and Hispania?

	25-07-2003 21:25									#23
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On the issue of a referendum, I think if it was a secret ballot conducted by the UN, yes I would trust the results.

	25-07-2003 21:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA No, for many reasons being the first the article 1 of the Spanish constitution.

Thatīs great, so by no means it can be allowed for the Basques to become independent

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA A few weeks ago there was a poll about conceding more auto govern to the Corsica island. The majority voted no. Which was the independentists answer? The next week they put a bomb. Has this stopped them from asking for independece? No. There was a poll in Qebec about becoming independent from Canada. Did the result have any effect? No, they wanted to make another poll. Probably they think that if they do enough polls they will end winning. Has the North Ireland autonomous government solved anything? I thik not. The palestinian got their own autonomous region and a plan to become a completely independet country. Did that stop them from attacking Israel? No. The colombian government offered the guerrillas an autonomous region to low down the violence and a negotiation period. Did it have any effect? no. I could continue with many other samples. Sadly there is no guarantee of that. In many villages people go to vote by fear. They have to choose their vote in front of everyone or they will be accused. If they choose the "wrong" option they will be prosecuted. if they come with their option made from house they will be prosecuted.

Yes, of course, threatening the people which are against the Independence to either vote pro Independence or stay home seems to be a grave Problem, especially if the Threat goes against the weak spots of the Families, like Children.

As for those examples:
Getting their own government and a part of the territory they fought for at least solved the issue for a lot of those who fought for the Independence of Ireland. Of course there were still people who wanted more (those people who at last also murdered the Heroe of their Resistance, Michael Collins) and continued to fight.
As for the Palestinians getting their own Government, this has to be seen. After all I would evaluate this only after Israel has retreated into the Borders of ī67 and the Westbank isnīt a patchwork of Israeli Settlements, Control Posts and palestinian Territory anymore. Til this day I donīt think that any Palestinian government can be fair assessed

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA What does the basque people who still want to be Spanish lose? They will probably lose their freedom, as the new government will likely be a fascist one judging from their past actions. This is not a civ game. The issue is not about giving a city which has little importance to the other player. It is about people and their way of life.

But for the Basque Government which has to get the money for running the State through Taxes, Export from Ressources and the like I think Ressources and Industry will be of much importance
The same goes for the spanish State as they would loose a lot of tax money if they allow the Basques to become independent and there are important industrial Plants or like things which make the Basque territories important.
That it does matter to the people living there is out of question, if they are against Independence they would face the consequence of either staying with a government they donīt like and not being spanish anymore, or to emigrate into spanish territories.

As for the form the Government will have. Dunno, I mean there will be a big difference in how they conduct the formation of their new Government. If htere is a cliuque of leaders which are in power since a long time, there will be the danger, that they will try to manipulate things so they stay in power, of course.
If there isnīt, dunno, maybe the Basque Population will get the chance to elect their own government and it might be much more democratic (and maebe even more Spain-friendly) than you assume?

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Why France can hold the territories and not Spain?

If Basque could readily declare Independence, backed up by spanish Articles the Reason would be, that France hasnīt granted their Departments the same amount of Independence and those Departments canīt become independent by themselves, whereas that spanish government has enabled the Basques to gain Independence and now has to face the consequences.
But of course, as the Spanish Artivcles (according to the things you wrote) donīt enable the Basques to declare Independence, backed by the Constitution, this question is meaningsless, as it would be against the spanish constitution.

	25-07-2003 22:19									#25
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OliverFA is an excellent example of precisely why Basques want independence in the first place- Spain (and to an even greater extent France) has spent centuries attempting to deny or romanicise their unique culture, insulting or oppressing their leaders, implanting the area with fiercly oppositional settlers, lauding the supposed virtues of imperialism. I bet a couple of decades ago Oliver here would have been against the teaching of euskadi in schools and the limited autonomy the region actually has...

Main reason I'm for the EU- weakens the national state and allows regions to flourish outside the yoke of power-mad bastards like Oliver.

	25-07-2003 22:27									#26
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quote: Which reason do you have to believe it? None of the MANY concessions given to them, which are not only but a group of all the basque people has lowered it.

oliver, i will admit that i don't have strong feelings about this situation, nor do i have any real experience with it outside of what i've read.
it is my opinion, though, that ethnic strife tends to go down when ethnic groups are separated by national borders, rather than when they are forcibly mixed.
the balkans, subsaharan africa, central asia and the kurds are all examples of ethnic strife arising due to artificial borders that forcibly mix hostile ethnicities.

	25-07-2003 22:39									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed OliverFA is an excellent example of precisely why Basques want independence in the first place- Spain (and to an even greater extent France) has spent centuries attempting to deny or romanicise their unique culture, insulting or oppressing their leaders, implanting the area with fiercly oppositional settlers, lauding the supposed virtues of imperialism. I bet a couple of decades ago Oliver here would have been against the teaching of euskadi in schools and the limited autonomy the region actually has... Main reason I'm for the EU- weakens the national state and allows regions to flourish outside the yoke of power-mad bastards like Oliver.

can we leave the personal insults , .........

	25-07-2003 22:39									#28
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that document sounds like rubbish. The government should continue to point out how illegal and extreme it is and then smear it's writers. Follow that up with state sponsored force if need be and assert the state will not allow any session from it's territory.

	25-07-2003 22:41									#29
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I jut love the title of this thread.

	25-07-2003 23:37									#30
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No offense, Oliver, but I'd be willing to let Spain be destroyed as long as the Basques are taking down France as well. You guys need to take one for the team.