26-07-2003 00:22									#31
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quote: Para entonces, el PNV confía en que ETA cumpla y decrete un tregua, prueba evidente de que los terroristas son un instrumento más para conseguir los objetivos políticos.

This says it all IMHO (quickly translated: for once, the PNV is confident that the ETA will stop terrorist actions, proof that terrorism is one more means to reach their objective).
I just want to point out that the Basque independentists are indeed quite hard against their own people. I suspect that a lost refernedum would be considered moot becuase they'd say that non-basques have influenced the vote, and a won referendum would probably have much more to do with the fear of those who wouldn't want to be oppressed for having voted no than the will of the basques.
The situation, btw, is quite similar in Corsica. Most corsicans don't want to be independant. The point is that many of them, and many basques in France (probably much less in Spain) leave their region to live in other areas of the country, but still, culturally and from all points of view, remain basques or corsicans.

And about losing something, I wouldn't want to lose the Biarritz Olympique, l'Aviron Bayonnais, and the songs. I also think that in Spain, the Pais Vasco is relatively rich in comparison with the southern regions. In France, it is much smaller, and doesn't have much weight (they can't even get a departement separate from the Bearn even though it's been promised to them many times).

	26-07-2003 00:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten No offense, Oliver, but I'd be willing to let Spain be destroyed as long as the Basques are taking down France as well. You guys need to take one for the team.

	26-07-2003 00:58									#33
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These are terrorists and nothing but terrorists. They need to be shut up. You foreigners have no say in the affairs of my country. There is one thing the former socialist PM Gonzalez did right and that was set up hit squads that went after terrorists and killed them.

	26-07-2003 01:18									#34
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Federalism is not a magic bullet to solve all problems. I really couldn't care less about the statehood or otherwise of Europe's tiny little nationalities, and I'm a member of one.

	26-07-2003 01:20									#35
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I think the Spanish central government has done a lot for the Basque region. And I think most people there, though would like some autonomy, would not want to be independent. It will never happen.

	26-07-2003 01:21									#36
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From what I've gathered, the problem is that while the Basques might admittedly have legitimate demands for more autonomy or even independence, as long as a small percentage of them resort to terrorism to promote these (and other) objectives, the Spanish government, most of its citizens and even an important part of their own people simply will not listen nor support them.

They must stop the violence before anything can seriously be negotiated.

	26-07-2003 01:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You foreigners have no say in the affairs of my country.

Then kindly refrain from commenting on U.S. politics from now on. Thank you.

	26-07-2003 01:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Then kindly refrain from commenting on U.S. politics from now on. Thank you.

I got American citizenship aswell you know.

	26-07-2003 01:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA (Spain news have not much impact outside our borders you know)

Yeah, I know.

	26-07-2003 02:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed OliverFA is an excellent example of precisely why Basques want independence in the first place-

First: Basques don't want independence. Even acording to the basque government statistics.

Second: You a sample of the triumph of the basque government propaganda. Please inform yourself better before opining about what you don't know

Third: I won't discuss why someone that insults me. That's the last time I've ever answered you.

Fourth: I am Catalan, but feel Spanish, like the majority of Catalans. What does it turn me in?

quote: Main reason I'm for the EU- weakens the national state and allows regions to flourish outside the yoke of power-mad bastards like Oliver.

No comment. Your own words cancel all your credit.

	26-07-2003 02:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it is my opinion, though, that ethnic strife tends to go down when ethnic groups are separated by national borders, rather than when they are forcibly mixed.

The problem is believing that they are a different ethnic group. They are the same race, have the same story, and (the most important thing) the majority of them want to continue being Spanish.

	26-07-2003 02:14									#42
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I guess Europeans are... what would be the word, hate other people that aren't the same ethnicity as they are... Racist? No... hmmm...

Silly, that there has to be divisions in such a socialist state...

	26-07-2003 02:14									#43
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quote: Originally posted by panag can we leave the personal insults , .........

Thanks for defending me, Panag. But honestly I prefer he to insult me. That shows which kind of person he is, and tells a lot about the positions he defenses.

By the way, is very common among the basque terrorists to acuse the Spanish of what they do. He must have studied at the same school than them.

I, of course, will never insult him.

	26-07-2003 02:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin that document sounds like rubbish. The government should continue to point out how illegal and extreme it is and then smear it's writers.

Thanks for your opinion Oerdin

	26-07-2003 02:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten No offense, Oliver, but I'd be willing to let Spain be destroyed as long as the Basques are taking down France as well. You guys need to take one for the team.

France might have their bad points, sure. We've seen many of them in the recent international political events. But it also has lot of good things and (in my opinion) is among the best and most democratic countries in the world. You can be sure that the result would be a lot worst, and you would miss France...

	26-07-2003 02:20									#46
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From the Old Empire and we colonials: ha ha!

Tough luck boys... (that is what Spaniards get for being so utterly rude)

	26-07-2003 02:21									#47
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I dislike nationalists of most kinds, but I especially dislike nationalists who say to some smaller group, you have no right to your own identity and you are part of us whether you like it or not.

Every group has the right to self-determination. Whether or not the Basques leave or stay with Spain is up to the Basques, not the Spanish (unless the Spanish decide they don't wish to associate with the Basques). It is not the right of the United States to decide for Puerto Rico (though it alone has that power), it is not the right of the Spanish to hold the Basques, it is not the right of the Turks to keep the Kurds.

	26-07-2003 02:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I suspect that a lost refernedum would be considered moot becuase they'd say that non-basques have influenced the vote

In fact there are predences about this. The Alava province, where the Partido Popular has te majority is considered a "traitor province" of the Basque Country.

quote: , and a won referendum would probably have much more to do with the fear of those who wouldn't want to be oppressed for having voted no than the will of the basques.

Completely right again. Youhave understood it.

quote: The situation, btw, is quite similar in Corsica. Most corsicans don't want to be independant.

I was really surprised how the Paris government betrayed the Corsicans with that referendum about uniting the two departments. And the Corsicans have sent a very clear messages to all the politician (and the people around the world that want to hear them) that they don't want to be independents. Despite that all the major parties and specially the Paris government made campaign for the yes they've said no. That's a clear defeat for the independentists. They should have stopped immediatly their purpouses, but instead of that they consider that "the people is wrong" and continue with all the propaganda. France is following the Spanish path with Corsica, which only goes to the destruction. After obtaining the unique department they would have continued asking for something else, and they won't stop until Corsica is independent (or in their language "free").

quote: The point is that many of them, and many basques in France (probably much less in Spain) leave their region to live in other areas of the country, but still, culturally and from all points of view, remain basques or corsicans.

Which means that something is going wrong there. When so many people leave their land something happens. As it was pointed in this thread. They just have to wait until all the "traitors" have left and then call for a referendum.

quote: And about losing something, I wouldn't want to lose the Biarritz Olympique, l'Aviron Bayonnais, and the songs.

Specially becuase there is no historic evidence that they ever formed part of the Spanish basque region.

quote: In France, it is much smaller, and doesn't have much weight (they can't even get a departement separate from the Bearn even though it's been promised to them many times).

The day they have their own department France will have another problem.

	26-07-2003 02:33									#49
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Should nationalists who represent a minority of their own people's desires have the right to hijack their provinces away from Spain? If most people living there want to remain with Spain, isn't that the most important consideration?

	26-07-2003 02:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oliver, Just a little bit of history please: Wasn't the Basque territory part of the Roman Empire?

It was, but some campaigns of disinformation say that "they were the only ones that proudly resisted the Romans. And no, it is not some cartoon like Asterix.

quote: But if it was, why didn't Latin take hold there as it did elsewhere in Gaul and Hispania?

Another piece of misinformation here. Acording to the own basque govern statistics, 80% of basque people speak Spanish. So Latin did take hold there. Also an interesting fact. The Spanish language was birth in the basque region.

	26-07-2003 02:36									#51
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In the United States, we have sovereign nations w/i our borders — namely, the Native American people whose tribes survived the early onslaught of settlers from Europe and elsewhere in the world.

The tribes have no say in foreign affairs, nor can they make treaties or other such agreements with other countries, but other than for that, they're pretty much on their own. Oh, and we have a lot of them addicted to federal monies — admittedly, mainly due to treaty obligations and whatnot.

Would an arrangement like that work with the Basques?

Gatekeeper

	26-07-2003 02:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Fez There is one thing the former socialist PM Gonzalez did right and that was set up hit squads that went after terrorists and killed them.

Actually I disagree here. Those squads didn't solve anything (look at the problem we have now) and they were so uncompetent that they kidnaped and killed normal people instead of terrorists...

The Estate have enough instruments to fight this. (including in the most extreme case the army, but I like to think that the case is not so extreme, not yet) all that it has to do is use those instruments instead of being full of complexes.

	26-07-2003 02:43									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I dislike nationalists of most kinds, but I especially dislike nationalists who say to some smaller group, you have no right to your own identity and you are part of us whether you like it or not.

There are two things I even dislike more:

1) People who comment about foreign affairs without being informed enough about them.

2) "Smaller groups" that use the force, the blackmailing and the murder to tell the "bigger group" (the majority of basques) "you have no right to want to continue being Spanish. You are a traitor and you will do what we want... Or you won't do anything else".

	26-07-2003 02:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Should nationalists who represent a minority of their own people's desires have the right to hijack their provinces away from Spain? If most people living there want to remain with Spain, isn't that the most important consideration?

In most cases is very similar to Chechenia. That's why I simpathize with that case.

Terrorism and independentism is the manifestation of the same problem all around the world. And there are probes that Al Qaeda and Sendero Luminoso have been suporting ETA. They want to destroy Spain as a part of their plan to destroy all the civilized world, from the US to the Phillipines passing through Colombia or Russia.

By the way, the ETA terrorists arrested in Mexico had information about how to build biological weapons.

	26-07-2003 02:49									#55
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About Spain:

Una mona en seda, mona se queda.

	26-07-2003 02:50									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper In the United States, we have sovereign nations w/i our borders — namely, the Native American people whose tribes survived the early onslaught of settlers from Europe and elsewhere in the world. [...] Would an arrangement like that work with the Basques?

Sadly not. If they really wanted to keep their identity, or to administrate their own affairs it would. But they only want one thing: power. They don't care about their people. Specially because the majority of "their people" think different than them.

	26-07-2003 02:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Actually I disagree here. Those squads didn't solve anything (look at the problem we have now) and they were so uncompetent that they kidnaped and killed normal people instead of terrorists... The Estate have enough instruments to fight this. (including in the most extreme case the army, but I like to think that the case is not so extreme, not yet) all that it has to do is use those instruments instead of being full of complexes.

I´ll have to give you that point. I should of thought about that point before posting it.

I just want to restate I think the Basque people want to stay with Spain as the central government has brought them prosperity. Oh and who said Spain was socialist? That is not true.

I myself was born in Madrid, but my mom is from a small town outside Salamanca... and I would like to see my country stay together like the way it should be. There is only prosperity if the country is united. Aznar has done well keeping the country in one piece bringing a great amount of prosperity.

	26-07-2003 03:04									#58
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I agree with you.

quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh and who said Spain was socialist? That is not true.

We are lucky that Spain is not socialist. In fact some of us have doubts about if there is a socialist party in Spain at all!

quote: Originally posted by Fez I myself was born in Madrid, but my mom is from a small town outside Salamanca... and I would like to see my country stay together like the way it should be.

Specially when the majority of the "offended" part of the country also want to stay united.

quote: Originally posted by Fez Aznar has done well keeping the country in one piece bringing a great amount of prosperity.

Aznar rocks! He should be the first president of Europe!

	26-07-2003 03:06									#59
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA I agree with you. We are lucky that Spain is not socialist. In fact some of us have doubts about if there is a socialist party in Spain at all!

The PSOE is the closest there is.. and Spain doesn´t want them in power ever again.

quote: Specially when the majority of the "offended" part of the country also want to stay united.

quote: Aznar rocks! He should be the first president of Europe!

That would be great... this is kinda off topic, but did you support the war in Iraq? I did... most polls say 90% of my people didn´t, but when it came to the election those polls were wrong.

	26-07-2003 03:07									#60
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Of course, OliverFA completely omits how Franco terrorized the region out of its desire for autonomy. Fascism's first lessons in state terror began in the Basque region.