26-07-2003 03:16									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The PSOE is the closest there is.. and Spain doesn´t want them in power ever again.

Actually some people doubt if the PSOE exists because it follows a different policy at every place. That's why I said that "I doubt if there is a socialist party in Spain".

quote: That would be great... this is kinda off topic, but did you support the war in Iraq? I did... most polls say 90% of my people didn´t, but when it came to the election those polls were wrong.

Another sample of propaganda. Polls said 90%. Newspapers said 100% and some even 150%, showing their maths knowledge. Looking at the media it was like absolutely everyone was against the Iraq war (only the Iraq war. They don't care about all the other wars around the world). I am sure that if we would had a thread about supporting the war in Spain the majority would have said that Spanish people were anti war, but then the elections come and the victory is for "the war party". What happened? Did all that "peace supporters" changed their mind. Of course not. It was just propaganda. A lie that becomes true because it is said many times. Exactly the same happens with the basque region.

	26-07-2003 03:23									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course, OliverFA completely omits how Franco terrorized the region out of its desire for autonomy. Fascism's first lessons in state terror began in the Basque region.

Do you want to speak about the Spanish Civil War? This is another common place for lies and propaganda.

First, Franco was not a fascist. He was a conservative dictator. In fact there are documents that prove that Hitler didn't like him and that he would have attacked Spain if he hadn't had more important problems. Of course he would have won without problems because Spain was devastated after the civil war.

Second, the "Republican" side was not Republican at all. They wanted to cancel the Republic and install a communist regime controlled by Moskow.

Third, The democracy in Spain arrived when Franco died and the regime itself did the change. The first president of the democracy was also the last president in the Franco's regime.

Fourth, even if what you said was true that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the Basques want to be Spanish, and that the ones that terrorize right now (and since before the Franco's regime ended) is the ETA. So the sons have to pay their father's fault?

	26-07-2003 03:27									#63
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Nationalists can be fun. But often they're one track records. "My country is the greatest ever and never did anything wrong, ****ers!"



No one cares, and only Fez believes you.

	26-07-2003 03:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course, OliverFA completely omits how Franco terrorized the region out of its desire for autonomy. Fascism's first lessons in state terror began in the Basque region.

You out of all people don´t have credibility to talk about Spain´s past.

	26-07-2003 03:28									#65
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I rarely agree with panag on politics, but really, Spain should hang those bastards on the very next tree. The basques have no reason whatsoever to claim independence, even less by means of terrorism.
Not only that it makes no sense in a Europe becoming every time more closely united, but because the Basques enjoy an autonomy any other minority can only dream of!
Corse and Breton people in France have it much worse, by French centralized policy and although there is some corse terrorism, it's far from being even comparable to ETA.
ETA are nothing but criminals, the worst and most senseless terrorist group I've ever heard about.

	26-07-2003 03:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nationalists can be fun. But often they're one track records. "My country is the greatest ever and never did anything wrong, ****ers!"

I supose you are calling me Spanish nationalist? Well, sadly Spain did many things wrong. One of them for example not informing enough about the basque problem and leting all that misinformation and propaganda campaign go on.

	26-07-2003 03:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You out of all people don´t have credibility to talk about Spain´s past.

More than you.

	26-07-2003 03:30									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nationalists can be fun. But often they're one track records. "My country is the greatest ever and never did anything wrong, ****ers!" No one cares, and only Fez believes you.

Shut up.

My uncle was almost killed in an ETA bomb blast. And I personally would like to see all the ETA ****ers shot and fed to sharks.

	26-07-2003 03:31									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara More than you.

I am from the country. And communism doesn´t have a place in my country.

	26-07-2003 03:36									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I am from the country. And communism doesn´t have a place in my country.

Right. Communism doesn't even have a place in Russia nowadays. Which is very good for Russians!

Communist party is part of the Basque government by the way. it isn't surprising that the communists are suporting murderers and thier blackmail policies.

By the way, communists brought Spain to Civil War. At least we ended with the lesser evil. I'd rather not to think what would happen if the communists had won the war.

	26-07-2003 03:39									#71
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My grandfather was in the Nationalist Army and almost killed by communists. That is why I have such resentment.

	26-07-2003 03:48									#72
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Here you can find information in English and other languages about the real situation in the Basque Country

¡Basta ya!

	26-07-2003 03:51									#73
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Thanks for the link...

	26-07-2003 04:01									#74
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Oliver, is that the Basque parliament (term?) making those demands? Or is it a non-governmental organisation fancying itself to be the 'government' of the basques.

btw, you are correct. The sovereigntists lose a vote in Quebec and begin speaking of the next one while conceding defeat. There may be some hope though. It is reported that younger Francophones aren't very interested in the program for the most part.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I dislike nationalists of most kinds, but I especially dislike nationalists who say to some smaller group, you have no right to your own identity and you are part of us whether you like it or not. Every group has the right to self-determination. Whether or not the Basques leave or stay with Spain is up to the Basques, not the Spanish (unless the Spanish decide they don't wish to associate with the Basques). It is not the right of the United States to decide for Puerto Rico (though it alone has that power), it is not the right of the Spanish to hold the Basques, it is not the right of the Turks to keep the Kurds.

Yeah right. And Virginia's right to secede was respected, yes?

	26-07-2003 04:09									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oliver, is that the Basque parliament (term?) making those demands? Or is it a non-governmental organisation fancying itself to be the 'government' of the basques.

Every region of Spain has its own government with a congress. It is like the middle institution, being the lower the municipalty and the higher Spain itself. The institution making those demands is the president of the basque region.

quote: btw, you are correct. The sovereigntists lose a vote in Quebec and begin speaking of the next one while conceding defeat.

I wonder if they would agree to repoll again if they had won. Anyway, if I remember correctly, the vote in Quebec was very close, almost 50%-50% What would have happened to the half of the Quebec people if the independentists had won?

quote: Yeah right. And Virginia's right to secede was respected, yes?

Completely I wonder if he would say the same if, let's say, California, decided to turn independent from the rest of the USA.

	26-07-2003 04:30									#76
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Oliverio, macho, me gustó como empezaste el hilo, hablando de que hay que eliminar a ETA y a toda esa peste del PNV que se alimenta de ella.

Pero algunas de tus recientes afirmaciones me han decepcionado hasta tal punto que empiezo a pensar que eres un DL de Fez o algo así.

BTW, It seems you are identifying the left with the basque nationalism, when indeed the PNV (Basque Nationalit Party, the main basque nationalist party) is a very-right-wing and religious party.

	26-07-2003 04:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course, OliverFA completely omits how Franco terrorized the region out of its desire for autonomy. Fascism's first lessons in state terror began in the Basque region.

And how long has Franco been dead? That's a pretty silly argument. If the majority of Basques today don't want independence, what the hell difference does it make what the Basques of several decades ago wanted?

Franco's gone, and now there's no one holding a gun to their heads...except, of course, the ETA. I'd say since they are murdering terrorists and that most Basques don't agree with them or want what they want, independence is out of the question. If they want to have a democratic referendum for independence, that's one thing. Using car bombs is quite another.

	26-07-2003 04:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Completely I wonder if he would say the same if, let's say, California, decided to turn independent from the rest of the USA.

Said it before, and I'll say it again: Texas is free to go.

	26-07-2003 04:40									#79
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quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg Oliver, macho, me gustó como empezaste el hilo, hablando de que hay que eliminar a ETA y a toda esa peste del PNV que se alimenta de ella.

De paso eliminemos a EA a HB y a IU, que también se alimenta de ella

quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg Pero algunas de tus recientes afirmaciones me han decepcionado hasta tal punto que empiezo a pensar que eres un DL de Fez o algo así.

A mi me ha decepcionado tu bandera, así que ya somos dos.

quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg BTW, It seems you are identifying the left with the basque nationalism, when indeed the PNV (Basque Nationalit Party, the main basque nationalist party) is a very-right-wing and religious party.

Did I identify the left with the basque nationalism? If that can be understood for what I said I apologize for this. As you say, the PNV is a rightie. What they all have in common is that they (lefties, righties, and others) are authoritarian, anti-system (go against the established power) and more important, want as much power as they can. It is better to be the owner of my little basque estate with a seat in the UN and all the estate's advantages than to be a simple regional leader, even if that means that my people will live better.

And you are right, the basque church supports the separatism. Even one of their leaders was from the church when he was younger. And this is one of the problems that Spain has. Despite all the different independentist forces are united no mater they are from the right or the left, the "Spanish" left (honestly I doubt it can be called "Spanish") doesn't defend Spain with strength and determination. And it is very bad, because Spain, like many other countries need an strong right party like we have, but also an strong left party, which we don't have.

	26-07-2003 04:42									#80
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You guys didn't understand me when I said that culture was a killer. Look at how the Basques use culture as a weapon. Remember that the Nazis emphasized the importance of German culture. Culture is a killer. Look at Wales, where they are trying to ressurect a dead language. Let it die.

And could someone link to a site or provide some information on the extent of Basque territory, etc. Don't really understand where it is.

	26-07-2003 04:45									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And how long has Franco been dead?

Listening to some people it seems like Franco is still alive.

quote: If they want to have a democratic referendum for independence, that's one thing. Using car bombs is quite another.

Completely agree. If things reach to a point where the result is secession (majority of people willing it, not just 50!; environment in which everyone can express himself freely, no dirty tricks...) then I wouldn't be against independence. I, now and then, will be against arrogant people speaking on behalf of all their neighbours, using dirty methods while at the same time acusing their victims of being the ones that do it.

	26-07-2003 04:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Every region of Spain has its own government with a congress. It is like the middle institution, being the lower the municipalty and the higher Spain itself. The institution making those demands is the president of the basque region.

Damn. That's unfortunate. It sort of sets a collision course, doesn't it?

quote: I wonder if they would agree to repoll again if they had won. Anyway, if I remember correctly, the vote in Quebec was very close, almost 50%-50% What would have happened to the half of the Quebec people if the independentists had won?

Good question. There was a debate on whether 50% +1 would have been enough. The bigger problem was the question polled itself. There was a case being made that it was misleading. The federal government may have refused to recognise the legitimacy of it. We now have a Clarity Act. That act sets out the terms under which the Government of Canada and all of the provinces would negotiate if one of them held a vote for secession and it gained a majority, or what looked like a majority.

The most interestest thing about the whole issue is the Cree of Northern Quebec. They have treaties with the Crown (Federal Govt in this case). The land was added to Quebec after Confederation. The Cree have stated in no uncertain terms that they are not leaving Canada with a seperate Quebec. Their position is mentioned in the Clarity Act.

	26-07-2003 04:52									#83
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quote: Originally posted by TCO You guys didn't understand me when I said that culture was a killer. Look at how the Basques use culture as a weapon. Remember that the Nazis emphasized the importance of German culture. Culture is a killer.

In fact there are some interesting similarities between the independent basques (not all the basques!) methods and the nazis methods used in Germany at the early XXth century.

quote: Look at Wales, where they are trying to ressurect a dead language. Let it die.

I am Catalan and I don't care about Catalan language. Of course if someone wants to speak and to use it is ok for me. They are free. But I freely choose Spanish as my mother language. I even use English for many things along the day, like write at these forums, communicate with people at work, and even with some friends. I agree with you that the Wales' language cannot bring them any advantage but problems, and be used as a weapon. Again, basque was spoken by very few people. Independentists even speak in Spanish! But when they make "important speech" and thinks like that and for slogans they use basque. I'm sure that the majority of people in that forum believes that Bilbao speaks in Basque, and that Barcelona speaks in Catalan.

quote: And could someone link to a site or provide some information on the extent of Basque territory, etc. Don't really understand where it is.

I've aded a link at the first post. But anyway here it is again

http://www.bastaya.org:8080/index.html

	26-07-2003 04:54									#84
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quote: De paso eliminemos a EA a HB y a IU, que también se alimenta de ella

Creo que Llamazares está cometiendo un grave error aquí. Pero IU no se esta alimentando de ETA, más bien se está viendo perjudicada con esta alianza.

quote: A mi me ha decepcionado tu bandera, así que ya somos dos.

Pues no puedo imaginarme ni remotamente que tienes tú contra el pueblo iraquí, la verdad.
Ahora si quieres me lo explicas y autosecuestras tu propio Thread.

	26-07-2003 04:56									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Franco's gone, and now there's no one holding a gun to their heads...except, of course, the ETA.

And the Spanish government. The Death Squads are Spanish, and the repression during the 70s and 80s in Basque country was rather severe. And since you have no historical perspective on the matter, the current Basque resistence began during Franco's last decade.

I'm not saying I support the ETA, cuz I don't. But I don't support the Spanish either. That's like saying because you don't support Hamas you must support Israel. That's crap.

Let's look at what they've given us. 90% of Basques speak Spanish. Well, 90% of the Irish speak English. Does anyone suggest that they still wish to be part of the UK? Hell, most of Latin America speaks Spanish, and they sure as hell don't want to be part of Spain, so why make that assumption about the Basques?

What else? Oh yes, many Basques have moved out of the region. Well, again, look at Ireland, which has hundreds of thousands, if not millions of ex-pats living abroad, including in England. Must be a sign they want to be part of the mother country again. There are as many Palestinians living outside Palestine as in it. Just because you move to find a job doesn't mean you support union.

The truth is, as in almost all situations, most of the people just want peace and to be left alone. The ETA and the Spanish are both gangs of armed thugs who murder the innocent. A pox on both houses and a pox on all nationalists!

	26-07-2003 05:02									#86
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Damn. That's unfortunate. It sort of sets a collision course, doesn't it?

That was a concession given during the creation of the constitution in 1978. It was supposed to keep the nationalists content so they would stop asking for more. Now it is clear that it had the oposite effect.

In theory the central government has some powers and the "local" government other powers, so in theory there is no collision. In the practice the Constitutional Court is full of these collisions.

The President has talked about "a second decentralization" in which some powers (in theory the most convenient ones) would be transfered from the autonomous governments to the municipalties, something like the Swiss "communes". But the independentists are completely against this because it removes power from their hands.

quote: The most interestest thing about the whole issue is the Cree of Northern Quebec. They have treaties with the Crown (Federal Govt in this case). The land was added to Quebec after Confederation. The Cree have stated in no uncertain terms that they are not leaving Canada with a seperate Quebec. Their position is mentioned in the Clarity Act.

Of course! If Quebec has the right to leave Canada. Why Northern Quebec hasn't the right to stay? I am sure that the Quebequian independentists disagree with that and say they don't have any right to "leave Quebec". That's a common way of acting for independentists. And what if a city inside a part that wants to leave doesn't want to leve? Secession is not as easy as it seems!

I've also heared that Quebec wanted to leave but wanted to "freely associate" with Canada. Of course that would be to keep all the commerce. Is that true?

	26-07-2003 05:08									#87
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That site was useless. I want to know what the borders of Basque are. Is Andorra covered. Stuff like that.

	26-07-2003 05:09									#88
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And you never answered the Roman Empire question.

	26-07-2003 05:13									#89
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The Basque country was part of the Roman Empire. Andorra is not part of the Basque.

	26-07-2003 05:13									#90
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Sovereignty Association. Yes, there were ideas of keeping the Canuck buck and free access to markets, etc. That is what the sovereigntists were selling in the last go 'round. KH or Richileu could explain it better.

The bottom line is that the sovereigntists were selling a bill of goods to the electorate. Hense the Govt. of Canada passing the Clarity Act. One of the provisions being that no other issues could be tied to the question of secession. Secession, yes or no? is the standard.