28-07-2003 17:07									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident blah! blah! growing plants takes up more space. *yawn* Show me a plant that has as much protein (and B12 for that matter) as meat and tastes just as good. I'm waiting. I'll eat it in a heartbeat if it meets the above qualifications.

To raise livestock, you have to grow plants. (no matter how much 'filler' they add to the feed) A hamburger is the equivelant of 2 loaves of bread, from the grain that the cow ate. And it only takes less space to raise livestock when you factory farm them.

And you don't need as much protein as there is in meats (atleast not for as much meat as the average western eats in a day). Western diet has way too much protein in it in the first place, and it really is not difficult at all to get the protein you need as a vegetarian.

	28-07-2003 17:13									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Complete vegetarianism isn't healthier actually. According to my biology teacher from a few years back, there's a certain vitamin that the human body doesn't produce in sufficient quality out of itself, and which can only be found in meat. You need to eat meat at least once a month to stay completely healthy, so he said.

There are certain amino acids that most people usually get from meat that also occur in nuts and fungi but not vegetables. Not getting enough of these can be a problem for people on extreme vegetarian diets (no dairy products, eggs, that kind of thing).

	28-07-2003 18:34									#93
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quote: This is your (and several others) problem man.. Your sense of superiority over other living things. It's not because you are able to thing abstractly that you are worth more... It's a ridiculous point of view because there isn't such a thing as being worth more than another animal. Like that animal is not worth more than you. It's you who seems barbaric to me... Now was it Ghandi that said you could rate a civilization by looking at the way they treat their animals?... A civilization with the best technology or the biggest population isn't necessarily the best one you know..

A crock of ****. Humans are responsible for themselves, noone else.

I'd kill a million mice to save a human being.

	28-07-2003 21:14									#94
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I don't eat vegetables because I cannot stand the thought of these poor beings being killed just to give me something to eat

	28-07-2003 21:42									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel [q] I'd kill a million mice to save a human being.

Same here. But I would make some effort not to torture these mice while killing them. Such an effort I'd like to see in slaughterhouses.

	28-07-2003 21:44									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus A civilization with the best technology or the biggest population isn't necessarily the best one you know..

The one that gets to Alpha Centauri first is! :banana:

	28-07-2003 21:46									#97
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My argument:

If it wasn't for Meat eaters and certain religious customs Cows, Chickens, and Pigs would be extinct or on the endangered species list by now.

	28-07-2003 22:29									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Japher My argument: If it wasn't for Meat eaters and certain religious customs Cows, Chickens, and Pigs would be extinct or on the endangered species list by now.

Cows Chickens and Pigs are all man-made species for the purpose of farming.

	28-07-2003 22:31									#99
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That still does not negate the fact, Osweld...

We also culturvate vegies...

Besides, eating meat is then, obviously, a human thing to do...

	29-07-2003 00:08									#100
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Vitamin B12 is the one you need from meat.

but you can get that from a vitamin suppliment.

	29-07-2003 00:09									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Vitamin B12 is the one you need from meat. but you can get that from a vitamin suppliment.

Or dairy, or yeast.

	29-07-2003 00:11									#102
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well vegans don't eat dairy.

	29-07-2003 00:13									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well vegans don't eat dairy.

Vegans eat loads of soy and tofu though. Don't these vegetables replace animal proteins and vitamins to some extent ?

	29-07-2003 00:13									#104
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you can also get a lot (of protein) from soy

jon Miller

	29-07-2003 00:15									#105
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not aminos though

	29-07-2003 00:18									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Vegans eat loads of soy and tofu though. Don't these vegetables replace animal proteins and vitamins to some extent ?

Not B12, unless it is fortified with it (which it often is).

I'm kind of sceptical of B12, personally. I've heard that it is needed, but have never been told what it does, and why it's needed. Why do humans need it, but other mammals not? (yes yes, different species... but for something as important as B12 is made out be, you would think it would be pretty fundemental)

	29-07-2003 00:22									#107
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http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html#esse
http://www.olympus.net/messina/answers.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/

Jon Miller

	29-07-2003 00:25									#108
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I hate the term Organic, as it pertains to food... I know they mean Organically Grown, but even that doesn't make it "better"...

	29-07-2003 00:26									#109
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B12 deficiency leads to anemia (reduced number of red blood cells). However, the body can store the vitamins for more than ten years. You may actually also get enough B12 from bacteria in the food if you don't cook it too well, although that way is not highly recommended

	29-07-2003 00:47									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Not B12, unless it is fortified with it (which it often is). I'm kind of sceptical of B12, personally. I've heard that it is needed, but have never been told what it does, and why it's needed. Why do humans need it, but other mammals not? (yes yes, different species... but for something as important as B12 is made out be, you would think it would be pretty fundemental)

If you read Vital Signs in Discover magazine there was an incident in which a sick person was sick because of B12 deficiency. I can't remember exactly what it does. I'd have to find that issue of discvoer

	29-07-2003 01:04									#111
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Just corn and beans cover all the types of amino acids you need. Though Im not sure about how much corn and beans u need to eat to cover the daily amount recommended.

	29-07-2003 01:07									#112
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I think I will just keep eating meat, as it is too hard to be a vegitarian or a vegan

	29-07-2003 01:11									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Not B12, unless it is fortified with it (which it often is). I'm kind of sceptical of B12, personally. I've heard that it is needed, but have never been told what it does, and why it's needed. Why do humans need it, but other mammals not? (yes yes, different species... but for something as important as B12 is made out be, you would think it would be pretty fundemental)

"coenzyme in nucleic acid metabolism; needed for maturation of red blood cells"

-From Biology Textbook-

	29-07-2003 01:12									#114
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Jeez, I'm not a vegetarian but I've drastically cut down the amount of meat I eat and sworn off veal(which is absolutely delicious), so I'm a hypocrite because I have a leather belt?! By all means lets refrain from making any moral choices because inevitably something will pop up that will prove us to be a hypocrite.

Its hard to disengage from the norm but any attempt is worthwhile.

	29-07-2003 01:15									#115
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8 essential amino acid

Corn and grains

Tryptophan
Methionine
Valine
Threonine
Phenylalnine
Leucine
Isoleucine
Lysine

Bean and other legumes

(purple = both corn and beans)

	29-07-2003 01:17									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I think people who are vegetarian for health reasons are idiots. The occasional hamburger isn't going to kill you.

Unless they ate it in Britain while the government was denying that people could catch Mad Cow disease. Or the people who die from ecoli 157 or other food poisoning (which is ever more common in these days of factory farming and inhumane animal raising conditions).


There is nothing at all wrong with not wanting to eat animals because of how animals are treated. I buy free range eggs, because I don't want to support the practice of stuffing hens insde cages which are too small for them to turn around where they are debeaked and force fed while pumped full of anitbiotics because they are so crowded that diease is a serious problem.

If I could buy free range pork I would, and I do buy free range beef. I only buy American caught shrimp, because I know they have nets which don't trap sea turtles and American tuna because I know it is dolphin safe.

Just because I like meat doesn't mean I want to see animals suffer. Just because I like fish doesn't mean I want to see mangrove swamps destroyed, turtles and dolphins drownes, and the sea beds scoured clean. Not only are practices which are human better for the animal, but they are less polluting and produce safer food, thus helping humans as well.

	29-07-2003 01:19									#117
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oh and if there vegans out there not eating beef cause they think its cruel to grow them in stocks and slaughter them for our food... remember cow is doing the same thing.

(they feed on bacterias that they farm in their guts)

	29-07-2003 01:25									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do animals show fear before they are about to be slaughtered? I think most animals are too stupid to realize what's about to happen. They only recognize fear in the form of predators.

Then, yet again, you'd be wrong. Prey animals can small blood and understand the cries of the animals before them. They know that something very bad is about to happen and they are afraid.

	29-07-2003 01:31									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Unless they ate it in Britain while the government was denying that people could catch Mad Cow disease. Or the people who die from ecoli 157 or other food poisoning (which is ever more common in these days of factory farming and inhumane animal raising conditions).

I was speaking relatively. You know, like if I said, the occasional tree won't kill you (although quite a few people may be killed by trees every year). Mad cow disease currently makes SARS look like a worldwide disease, and the number of people who actually die from eating infected meat is still so low that it gets reported in newspapers. So bleh

	29-07-2003 01:31									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Odin That is why I support aquaculture, raising fish takes less space than raisng mammals and birds, and will reduce the ecological damage from comercial fishing.

Actually, it doesn't. Aquaculture is highly polluting and requires that fish be caught from the wild (so they can be turned into fish food).