28-07-2003 03:48									#1
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It's excellent that we're getting the source code, and good that a list of bugs/fixes is being created. However there's one last thing to decide:

Who's going to do it and how?

I propose the following project team setup:

- Project Leader:
This person must be a non-programmer, as there's going to be plenty of things to co-ordinate between all the below groups. Someone with a fantastic overview of the game, and also CTP1 (would be useful). Examples: Locutus, Wes Whitaker.

- Documentation team:
This team (doesn't need to be one person) is solely responsible for "updating the manual and other documentation". They will issue manual updates, addendums, and eventually a new manual when the time requires. Also, updates to the Tech Tree will also be needed. Document Manager is the person to head the team, and holds our "official version". No other version official.

- Programming Team:
By no means the most important team, as important as the rest. This team is responsible for the actual coding, documentation of the source code. I believe the code should be broken down into areas of concern (GUI, diplomacy, combat, setup, AI, Player [including MP/SP], Empire management, etc). These areas of concern can then be broken down into areas for easier modular programming (one coder per modular area at a time to avoid redundancy). Each coder will fix their module, submit it to the Programming Manager who will retain the "master source copy". At regular intervals the master source copy is to be resent to the coders so their version is updated. The Prog Manager will also assign jobs to coders so coders don't run around fixing the same things off their own backs. Something I see as important: CODERS MUST COMMENT WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THE CODE AND EXTERNALLY IN TXT DOCUMENTS!!!!!

- Extras Team:
Over the course of coding, various "extra things" are going to be needed. Some examples I can think of are: graphics (at the least if only to create a Credits Page for us!! ), communications between teams, communication to the CTP2 players of Apolyton, PR work to get the sound of CTP2 buzzing around the world, etc. An Extras Manager will oversee this team's work and will be the final word in what's done. This team could also include keeping Activision "in the loop", I mean they have been generous enough to release the code

Any discussion or volunteers welcome. I'll put myself down for a coding position.

Project Leader:

Doco Manager:
- Doco team: Maquiladora

Prog Manager:
- Coders: Dale, MrBaggins, John

Extras Manager:
- Extras team: stankarp, John (maths)

EDIT: Added names to list

Last edited by Dale on 28-07-2003 at 14:28

	28-07-2003 04:21									#2
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Sounds like fun. Mark me down for the Documentation Team and some graphical work if needed. Basically anything that doesnt involve programming.

	28-07-2003 05:17									#3
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i'll code

and work on any data modelling or structure design, should it be necessary, too.

	28-07-2003 05:59									#4
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I had a thought for a possible specific person in the extras team: a mathematician...

The CtP AI uses fuzzy state engines. These implement fuzzy math, which isn't necessarily common knowledge. I know a basic amount about it... but I think we might need a more skilled person to at least consult, if we need to delve into the AI.

Maybe a post in off topic to check if we can find any willing souls.

	28-07-2003 11:21									#5
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I would like to help. My only skill at the moment is in graphics, just did 10 new units for my ancient expansion for cradle.

I am doing graphics, spreadsheets, web pages and other things at technical college at the moment.

Once I get organised I would like to learn a bit about programming.

	28-07-2003 13:46									#6
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I'll help programming, and I'm also a mathematician (In the middle of my degree now). I've never explored fuzzy logic in detail, but I can probably get on top of it quickly. I don't think it will be necessary since I'm sure Locutus said that the fuzzy logic was taken out of CTP2. Of course, that doesn't stop us putting it back it, but I don't think it's a priority.

	28-07-2003 14:06									#7
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This could go in pretty much any of the threads on the source code, but this place is as good as any...

I'd hate to be a party crasher, but shouldn't we wait until we actually HAVE the code? I mean, for all we know the code may be too incomplete or incomprehensible to be of any use. We don't know anything for sure: if/what/when/where/how. We only heard from 2 former employees (as kind and reliable as they may be), Activision itself has not made any kind of statement yet on the subject.

Worst case scenario is that we only get a few incomprehensible and undocumented DLL files, still leaving the core of the game untouchable -- and we have to wait another six months for it as well. No, wait, cross that. Worst case scenario is that they change their mind and we don't get anything... Of course, opposite to that is the best case scenario, where everything we ever wanted and more will be posted on Apolyton tomorrow, including full docs, art and development tools. Reality is probably somewhere in between those two extremes but before we know more, I for one am hesitant to get ahead of myself.

Last edited by Locutus on 28-07-2003 at 14:12

	28-07-2003 14:24									#8
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Locutus:

While yes I agree with you, I just wanted to remind everyone of the need for colaboration. From the way people have been talking since it was announced by Winnie it's appeared like every man and his dog was going to jump in and do what they wanted.

It's more in the way of a team approach, a setting down of how to go about it, some boundaries if you will. Don't need a thousand ctp2.exe's being uploaded to the directory now do ya?

	28-07-2003 14:30									#9
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I agree with that. Collaboration and a systematic approach will be required to ensure compatibility and maximum benefit.

But it's kinda hard to plan ahead for something you basically know nothing about (yet)...

For now the only thing we can really do is make an inventory of things in need of fixing/improvement. Anything else will require at least some knowledge of what we're going to get.

	28-07-2003 14:41									#10
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quote: For now the only thing we can really do is make an inventory of things in need of fixing/improvement. Anything else will require at least some knowledge of what we're going to get.

That sounds right on to me. And as for what we're going to get:

quote: Originally posted by Pyaray quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX i'm studying compsci @ uni now, and i've always wanted to make my own civ game. hopefully, this source code will help me in understanding the mechanics of game coding. what i'm doing now i class projects seems a far cry away. It should give you a whole new understanding of "large programming projects".

I look forward to this with both and

	28-07-2003 14:43									#11
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I think it will help significantly to have thought at least as much as we are about this, but of course getting too far ahead of ourselves is not a good idea.

Of course, if the whole thing falls through, we can all look appropriately embaressed, and if it takes 6 months (or more, which would not surprise me much) then we'll have lost a lot of momentum, I guess, but, with the exception of this thread, this isn't much more than what people were saying in the previous 'If only we had the source code...' threads.

	28-07-2003 14:47									#12
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I think no matter what ends up coming out of Activision, after reading some other released code of games and how Joe and Winnie et all have spoken of the actual code, it's gunna be a ****-fight.

I believe it's going to be months before anything substantial will come out of having the code. 1- the coders need to read the code and start getting their heads around it (without comments). Now, depending on how the classes, variables, pointers etc are labelled will determine the readability of it. 2- the coders then need to create some sort of docos on the code. Even if there's enough coders for one class each, it'll take ages, maybe even a month for all of this to come together. 3- the coders then need to start working on their areas to fix the urgent bugs.

This is where I believe a team structure in place before we start will benefit.

1- When the coders are first reading the code, the extras team will have to start ripping the pics out of the files. I would really love to convert the game to a .tiff loader, rather than what's used now. As a modder it'll make adding new tiles for instance easy.

2- As the coders are producing doco, the doco team will need to compile it into something readable for all, maybe even a few translations for the benefit of all.

3- As the coders work on the fixes, the doco team will be writing manual updates. Also, need I mention GL updating? The extras team will need to be fixing/compiling/name conventioning the graphics files ripped in stage 1.

We also need to consider the timeline too, and the impact on Civers who gave up on CTP2. After the announcement it's obvious a lot of people would try CTP2 again if certain things were fixed (MP especially). If things take too long, the interest will falter and they'll drift away again. Thus we'll lose a lot of valuable input and beta testers. I would just like to throw caution out there and at least have something basic in the way of a team in place early.

	28-07-2003 17:03									#13
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Locutus, always the pessimist...

Yup, I know and believe that keeping track of all the team and stuff will be complex, and much so. I do also believe that someone (Wouter, preferrably) needs to start an OTF thread trying to get a few programmers/math guys here. It is also my personal opinion that it would be great to have Velociryx here. I know he's busy with the Candle'Bre stuff, but an occasional idea or two from him can be worth a lot.

	28-07-2003 17:33									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solver It is also my personal opinion that it would be great to have Velociryx here. I know he's busy with the Candle'Bre stuff, but an occasional idea or two from him can be worth a lot.

Has he heard this news about the source code yet? I don't recall him posting in the OT thread ... he could be swamped with other stuff right now (I know he's just moved house, for instance) and hasn't seen it.
Vel: Busiest man in the universe.

I'm sure he'd be interested to follow the progress of this project, even if he doesn't have time to contribute anything personally.

* FrustratedPoet doesn't play CTP, but is very interested in where this project goes, if indeed you do get some kind of comprehensible code in the near future.

	28-07-2003 18:07									#15
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Damn, if I had a little bit more time I would help in Coding.

But as I will look at the Code of CtP2 anyway, as soon as it is released, I will readily participate in any public discussions within this Forum about Parts of the Code.

	28-07-2003 18:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Locutus, always the pessimist...

Says the guy who up until a few weeks ago thought we'd never see or hear anything good coming out of Activision anymore, despite my claims to the contrary

	28-07-2003 19:08									#17
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This is going to be mad

	28-07-2003 19:31									#18
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If there is a place for me i would love to help. But I have no skills i can think about it other than slic and modding knoledge .
Yet i would be happy to help and i garantee my effort into it.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 28-07-2003 at 20:32

	28-07-2003 22:52									#19
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As a slightly rusty C/C++ coder (with the emphasis on the C), I'd be happy to help with the coding and throw in ideas, given time constraints, of course.

And I certainly don't think it's premature to consider project organisation. When I heard about the source release, my first thought was that, without someone organising a strong team, what should be everyone's fondest wish could turn into a living nightmare.

Personal preferences, apart from bug fixes, would be working on ways to extend SLIC capabilities - including better debugging.

	28-07-2003 23:47									#20
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well i got access to 150 Lan pc's, some of which can be used for something usefull(MP testing etc).
Other than that i'm sure i could add something to what ever docs are needed, better write-ups of GL entries, a few 'stories' whatever etc.So i'll happily be one of Maqs minions

	29-07-2003 02:41									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dale 1- When the coders are first reading the code, the extras team will have to start ripping the pics out of the files. I would really love to convert the game to a .tiff loader, rather than what's used now. As a modder it'll make adding new tiles for instance easy.

What pics in which files? The ctp2.exe only contains five icons. And except for the sprites we can ripp off everything. I don't think if a tiff loader is really the goal to achieve, actual we have other things to do and maybe something like a sprite for additional terrains would be better, the formats are very similar and therefore less work.

-Martin

	29-07-2003 04:57									#22
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You'll need to look at the DX7 code to see how much work it will be undoing the .zfs format. Directdraw doesn't allow full alpha transparency, which I remember that CtP2 (but could be wrong?) supported. If so, there may be a compelling reason for the choice. It may also effect performance; for instance loading the file as a single surface rather than blitting repeatedly.

[edit... typo]

	29-07-2003 17:44									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Locutus, always the pessimist...

No, IMO Locutus is right, we don't have the code yet and we don't know if the programmers among you will actually be able to use it. Locutus is just trying to keep everyone's head cool.

As I was reading this thread I had the same thoughts than Locutus as everyone is acting as if we already had this Source Code.

Anyway, I would be glad to help though I am nor a programmer nor a mathematician. I can read the various documentations to hunt the typos or help managing the team. I could translate the documentations into French though I think it is rather useless as the programmers are, by definition, speaking English.

	29-07-2003 22:41									#24
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Locutus? Right? Blasphemy .

OK, this time I am really back, connection finally restored... and FP, a shame you don't play CtP. As for Vel, he posted in the "activision" thread and knew that Activision is getting close to release source... dunno if he actually heard the news that they will.

	29-07-2003 22:51									#25
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I was apprehensive about jumping along with the hype but i take embarrasment quite well so lets see what happens

btw Vel just posted in the off topic thread.

	29-07-2003 22:55									#26
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Vel posted something a few hours ago in one of the threads (Maquiladora beat me on this one by 4 minutes), he is aware of the pending release and is already promising that Civ3 and Civ4 will be put to shame in the near future (though IMO this is already the case with the mods)...

	29-07-2003 23:14									#27
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Tamerlin, the real goal will be achieved when the last CtP players will cease playing Civ 3, even time to time .

	30-07-2003 01:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Tamerlin, the real goal will be achieved when the last CtP players will cease playing Civ 3, even time to time .

I thought the practice of CtP and/or CtP2 was immunizing a player to Civ3...

	30-07-2003 01:58									#29
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You wish. I will be the first to admit that I like Civ 3 quite some, although I do definitely see ways how CtP is better.

CtP players shouldn't view Civ 3 as bad 'by default', it's enough that many Civ/SMAC players naysay CtP by default. Civ 3 still has things that I prefer over current CtP/CtP2. The first of these is the bargaining table in diplomacy...

	30-07-2003 02:49									#30
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I agree, but I'm struggling to think of a second.