15-08-2003 15:14									#91
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway quote: Originally posted by Keygen I do offer myself for the project lead but very few know me here. I am well known in the CtP1 community and it is CtP1 that I have great knowledge about and not CtP2. I second that . I'm sure Keygen has what it takes to be project leader (mostly dedication) and the slightly more distant stance could be an advantage. Besides, noone else has offered to take the job, so Keygen must be the best of the bunch .

Thanks

After some thought the most ambitious project we could take is one full featured expansion - perhaps for both CtP 1 & 2 and enable them to work together in MP - but with a 1.8 million lines of code there it would take too much work. Perhaps if we had some voluntary guidance from Joe and/or Winnie could greatly help and speed up a project like that.

	15-08-2003 16:52									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen After some thought the most ambitious project we could take is one full featured expansion - perhaps for both CtP 1 & 2 and enable them to work together in MP - but with a 1.8 million lines of code there it would take too much work. Perhaps if we had some voluntary guidance from Joe and/or Winnie could greatly help and speed up a project like that.

Egad ! And I thought I was the worst one around here for over-ambitious projects. That would be multiple man-years of full time programming, and then even more of beta-testing and debugging, methinks...

	16-08-2003 00:17									#93
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Oops I think I pressed the "report to apolyton news" link by accident, I meant to press the receive updates button. My apologies to Dan

	16-08-2003 03:01									#95
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Looks like a Program Manager (PM) and a Configuration Management Team still needs to be laid out.

The program manager team would keep things focused and keep everyone working towards the same goal. Deciding what would and would not be worth implementing at such and such time and so on. They mainly control the focus of the teams and manage how the project progresses.

The configuration management team would take care of stuff like keeping the teams working in synch, and all configuration and settings changes would need to be coordinated with the Configuration Management Team so they could keep it all in a nice little central record. These two teams would be basically for the orginization and management of the other teams and their projects.

And yes source forge is an excellent way to keep things more organized. As would be a separate set of forums, for people to post feedback and ideas, and the team to have a private set of them for discussing internal things. The PM would then take ideas of people and decide if it is even feasible and file it withing the forum, in a priority type layout.

Sorry, I can get carried away when talking shop.

	16-08-2003 03:45									#96
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BTW, Keygen would make a good project leader. A dedicated guy, for sure, take my word for it.

I got carried away dreaming of Firaxis buying rights for CtP2 source and making the game we all wanted .

	16-08-2003 03:49									#97
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Firaxis? Game we wanted? Hmm.

see sig.

	16-08-2003 04:09									#98
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@ Elucidus:

You've got some cool smilies over there at CDG.

	16-08-2003 04:12									#99
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quote: Firaxis? Game we wanted? Hmm. see sig.

After all, those people made Civ 1 .

With Firaxis (and Locutus to bother them ) we could have a great game.

	16-08-2003 14:02									#100
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Egad ! And I thought I was the worst one around here for over-ambitious projects. That would be multiple man-years of full time programming, and then even more of beta-testing and debugging, methinks...

You've got a point there

That would probably be the case without inside help, but even that way it wouldn't be that bad even if would take 2-4 years. Besides we're talking for an expansion not a new game and from the amount of the new features that would be added would depend the time would need to complete such a task

With some inside help we could have much faster results. And - if we got the code after all - it wouldn't be that hard to have some. We would only need someone to point out where we should look at to improve networking for example and perhaps address some issues there.

But as I said that would be the most ambitious project so we should first release a patch or patches to correct all these small and big bugs over there and get familiarized with the code. In my opinion that would take lot of months of work and would give a taste of what we would deal with in an expansion.

	16-08-2003 14:09									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Elucidus Looks like a Program Manager (PM) and a Configuration Management Team still needs to be laid out. The program manager team would keep things focused and keep everyone working towards the same goal. Deciding what would and would not be worth implementing at such and such time and so on. They mainly control the focus of the teams and manage how the project progresses. The configuration management team would take care of stuff like keeping the teams working in synch, and all configuration and settings changes would need to be coordinated with the Configuration Management Team so they could keep it all in a nice little central record. These two teams would be basically for the orginization and management of the other teams and their projects.

That could be a good idea though I find no reason for two team instead of one. They complement each other and both have the overview of the entire project.

	16-08-2003 14:13									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Solver BTW, Keygen would make a good project leader. A dedicated guy, for sure, take my word for it.

Thanks Solv

quote: Originally posted by Solver I got carried away dreaming of Firaxis buying rights for CtP2 source and making the game we all wanted .

Only to make sure that someone else wouldn't and build a competive one to the Civilization series

	16-08-2003 17:47									#103
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Keyg, I do also doubt a fully-fledgled expansion somewhat. We don't have enough competent programmers here. The ones we have do actually hav (of course) limited time resources. If we here had a bunch of programmers (5-7) working full-time, 9 hours a day, on expansion, as well as a pair of artists for new graphics, yes, we'd be able to get a very solid expansion in under a year. Seeing, though, how all the job that's going to be done will be done on a volunteer basis by people who have college/university/work/families to deal with... .

Well, you get my point.

	16-08-2003 18:43									#104
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I have no doubt about that Solv
But it's not something that can't be done either.

Yes, let's go for a patch first, perhaps a couple of sofisticated mods and see what it comes next.

Maybe more people will volunteer under a good, persistent and inspired lead (of not only one person). Perhaps we could have an expansion before you know it, maybe not. Besides take a look at all those mod and utilities created for CtP 1&2. Do you think that all together took less work than an expansion?

	16-08-2003 22:10									#105
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quote: a good, persistent and inspired lead

You ?

quote: Besides take a look at all those mod and utilities created for CtP 1&2. Do you think that all together took less work than an expansion?

Let's face it, C++ is a bigger pain in the butt than SLIC. Besides, all the mods were also created over long time periods.

Currently, though... I will settle for a working CtP2 with bugs fixed and PBEM done. Maybe space-layer reintroduced. Well, Keyg, see the other threads .

	17-08-2003 01:50									#106
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quote: Keyg, I do also doubt a fully-fledgled expansion somewhat. We don't have enough competent programmers here. The ones we have do actually hav (of course) limited time resources. If we here had a bunch of programmers (5-7) working full-time, 9 hours a day, on expansion, as well as a pair of artists for new graphics, yes, we'd be able to get a very solid expansion in under a year. Seeing, though, how all the job that's going to be done will be done on a volunteer basis by people who have college/university/work/families to deal with...

I'm not sure. If you can get 2 part time programmers for 2 years, you can probably do a lot of good stuff. Considering that this is just an extension, I'm sure you could do many things.
Look at the credits for games: Currently they often have about 5 ful time programmers for 1 year, and many more graphists. For an extension pack, that's about 4 or 5 for 6 months. Even part time, you can get an extension within a 2 year time frame, with deliverable milestones in the meantime (things like crash fixes, PBEM, hotseat, and other almost working thingies).

	17-08-2003 09:32									#107
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Hey everyone.

Haven't posted on Apolyton for ages, as I basically lost interest in civ after civ3 was...well, not up to meeting my expectations.

Was a stong supporter of both CTP1 and 2, but, given their bugs etc their playability was limited.

Anyway, I don't really have any programming skills (not in C++ anyway) or anything to add to the project....other than that I would like to register my vote of support for this project, and would like to say good luck to everyone involved...if you can achieve an update/fix, and later an expansion of ctp2....well, it'd be great, and you'd make a lot of people happy.

	17-08-2003 15:41									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: a good, persistent and inspired lead You ?

Geez Solv, read the comment in the parenthesis
I was more thinking of some people in leading roles like project lead, design lead, programming lead etc. Some examples could be (yes) me, you, Locutus, John and others.

Lead does not imply one person necessarilly. That would be a leader

quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: Besides take a look at all those mod and utilities created for CtP 1&2. Do you think that all together took less work than an expansion? Let's face it, C++ is a bigger pain in the butt than SLIC. Besides, all the mods were also created over long time periods.

It sure is but who knew SLIC when CtP was introduced? I am sure that there are lot of programmers out there that have been writting code in C++ for years.

I am not sure if you have ever bothered to take a deeper look in some expansions out there.

In civ like games specifically all I can see is new units, leaders, civilizations, tiles, goodies and a few limited range additions and possibly some bug fixes. Most of them reuse the same code with a couple of really easy changes and new art which however is based in the same pattern.

Look at the Play the World expansion. If you take multiplayer apart what major chances have been really made?

Except some fixes needed and a PBEM feature, multiplayer in CtP series is ready.

What would really be pain in the ass would be major additions like some civ3 consepts like resources, culture, civ specific features or similar or make CtP1 work with CtP2 in multiplayer if that would be possible or worth the pain at all.

And who said we will do it or if we do will have it in a year?
Of cource it would take lot of time

quote: Originally posted by Solver Currently, though... I will settle for a working CtP2 with bugs fixed and PBEM done. Maybe space-layer reintroduced. Well, Keyg, see the other threads .

As I said, the best point to start with would be a patch
Good luck though.
It won't be hard to fix all these dozens of minor and major bugs I read all over a 1.8 million lines of code written in C++

And yes, I do read the other threads too

	17-08-2003 16:03									#109
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I'm not sure. If you can get 2 part time programmers for 2 years, you can probably do a lot of good stuff. Considering that this is just an extension, I'm sure you could do many things. Look at the credits for games: Currently they often have about 5 ful time programmers for 1 year, and many more graphists. For an extension pack, that's about 4 or 5 for 6 months. Even part time, you can get an extension within a 2 year time frame, with deliverable milestones in the meantime (things like crash fixes, PBEM, hotseat, and other almost working thingies).

The case you mention have a couple of important differences compared with our case:

a) These programmers concerning the expansion are most likely (not howsoever) already familiar with the code in which they're going to work.

b) They have deticated programmers because they're paid.

And these would be the biggest problems we would have to face in my opinion.

Get familiar with the code (working with a patch first would greatly help, that's the reason I insist in it) and keep a core of people in all fields (programming, design, art...) deticated for as much time it takes to finish it. That wouldn't be than 5 guys in my opinion but in voluntary and open projects like this one even that number is quite ambitious.

If overcome these problems then I beleive we could have an expansion out in 2 years, maybe less.

	17-08-2003 16:05									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Zanzin ....other than that I would like to register my vote of support for this project, and would like to say good luck to everyone involved...if you can achieve an update/fix, and later an expansion of ctp2....well, it'd be great, and you'd make a lot of people happy.

	17-08-2003 20:15									#111
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quote: The case you mention have a couple of important differences compared with our case: a) These programmers concerning the expansion are most likely (not howsoever) already familiar with the code in which they're going to work. b) They have deticated programmers because they're paid.

I'm not sure. Being familiar helps, but when you start with patches, you get into the code. Plus 2 million lines is NOT that much. I guess it depends on the coder and how much used they are with big projects.
You can find unpaid programmes who are dedicated. They'll spend ten times less time programming than if they were paid (but think more in the meantime, thus being more effficient), but you do find dedicated programmers from time to time on non commercial game projects. I know a few, but it is hard to keep them for long, since real life can cause lots of damage.

	17-08-2003 21:14									#112
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Good points all... gonna be mostly offline for the next few days, up to a week... but Keyg, hey, I was joking for the most part .

	17-08-2003 22:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I'm not sure. Being familiar helps, but when you start with patches, you get into the code.

My point exactly

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Plus 2 million lines is NOT that much. I guess it depends on the coder and how much used they are with big projects.

You think so?

With an average of 50 lines per page in a A4 size book it would need 40.000 pages. That would mean around 100 volumes of 800 pages each

Well, OK it's not the same exactly
Most lines wouldn't fill an entire A4 row.
If you add the load of commentaries and probably code left there from unimplemented features that could be 5 to 10 times less, something like saying 20-10 volumes of 800 pages A4 size books.

This is not exactly "NOT much" as you can see but you've got a point.
I don't think it will be necessarily to read and learn all that code, only the parts that would be needed to build a patch and when lined down in the length of time under high interest and pasion it might be proven that you were right after all

All these are of cource theory and my personal and quite rushed and rough estimation that could be considerably out of reality

Mr Ogre?

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare You can find unpaid programmes who are dedicated. They'll spend ten times less time programming than if they were paid (but think more in the meantime, thus being more effficient), but you do find dedicated programmers from time to time on non commercial game projects. I know a few, but it is hard to keep them for long, since real life can cause lots of damage.

Yes, that's the problem.
Dedicated would mean not only working on an often basis but also make it to the end.

	17-08-2003 22:15									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Solver but Keyg, hey, I was joking for the most part .

You were?
I think not
At list I hope not

You certainly have a point there but so have I
At list I think so

Keep your good work

	18-08-2003 00:05									#115
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quote: Dedicated would mean not only working on an often basis but also make it to the end.

Yes, but you won't be able to know who will make it to the end, because everyone thinks they will. So the project manager has to first give small tasks to people so they can get it done, and the commitment/availabel workload can be assessed. Of course, real life can wreck even the best and most dedicated programmer you can get (we had that in Clash - Gary Thomas did a huge work, and then was struck by a fit of RL). But if you can give tasks to people that avoid dependencies or only have dependencies on people who showed thet can react within one week, you don't need them to stay there forever to make good progress.
I think in Clash we manage to get some coding done, and there is probably much more people ready to work on CtP2 than on Clash, plus most of the code is already there, or is there, but bugged.

You'll also need someone to keep coders in line (that is, make sure someone knows what coder lambda is doing so two people don't collide unexpectedly, etc.).

	18-08-2003 13:39									#116
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I won't disagree as you sound reasonable, only add that key persons should be dedicated otherwise the whole project could end up dead.

Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too ) but when I refer and insist on dedicated people I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story.

	19-08-2003 00:57									#117
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quote: Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too )

What does too mean? This is THE real life... the other life exists merely to get food and money so that you can live this life .

quote: I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story.

A highly good point. That's why I don't myself expect to do much for the project. I will surely take a look at the code, but I do at the moment have enough things to deal with - and dedicating several more hours a week to modding CtP2 doesn't seem to be possible.

Just Keyg, may I remind you of CtP Info Central ? I think it's only in creation for 2 years .

	19-08-2003 04:15									#118
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Keygen:

Well, you can count me in as a proggy anyways. I just need to point out that with my own project starting the near beta stage my time will be limited. Maybe only 2 hours a week, but that's 2 more than you have now.

	19-08-2003 23:25									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: Nobody can ignore the factor of real life (well, this one is real life too ) What does too mean? This is THE real life... the other life exists merely to get food and money so that you can live this life .

quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: I mean persons that won't back off unless they have a serious reason to and not simply because they got borded or didn't estimate their real life workload correctly or made rushed decissions based on their first contact enthusiasm with the entire source code story. A highly good point. That's why I don't myself expect to do much for the project. I will surely take a look at the code, but I do at the moment have enough things to deal with - and dedicating several more hours a week to modding CtP2 doesn't seem to be possible. Just Keyg, may I remind you of CtP Info Central ? I think it's only in creation for 2 years .

Well, if you cumulate the hours you spend here joking around you would have some for it

CtP Info Center?
How about the CtP PBEM Rules 2.0? CtP MP Bugs thread? CtP MP Player List? My attempt to enrich the rules for the Ranking? And some more....
All part of the CtP Info Center.

Did any bothered to take a look there and show his interest? Few...

Why the hell spend more time then

	19-08-2003 23:29									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Dale Keygen: Well, you can count me in as a proggy anyways. I just need to point out that with my own project starting the near beta stage my time will be limited. Maybe only 2 hours a week, but that's 2 more than you have now.

Indeed, better than nothing