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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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oppurtunity may exist but it is hard to find and reach.
the problem with many conservatives is that they assume that oppurtunity is always availible and while it surely does exist, when it comes down to practicality, you can not claim that its simple existance means that anyone can succeed.
for example... sure colleges give out scholarships and all that and if you work real hard, you can go to college and all that... but how much chance of success are you going to have to get these scholarships with a public school education? and let's throw in a broken home and all the psychological and economic hardships that entails... and next thing you know, that oppurtunity for a college education is getting harder and harder to reach...
and let's not forget about the crabs in a barrel mentality and competition. this man trying to go to college on a public education and all that, still got to compete with others and only so many can succeed... add in competition from those (who may be inferior in skills, intelligence, etc.) who were given head-starts for various reasons and again, oppurtunity is fleeting.
frankly, i think this idea, espoused by too many conservatives for my tastes, that oppurtunity is abundant and can be achieved easily in practice is incorrect. it is morally and practically wrong to not allow people to have a solid ground to stand on before reaching for the top. i'm not talking about re-distribution of wealth or none of that bullshit... i'm talking about something more basic... a good educaton, at home and at school, a satisfactory and safe life worthy of human beings (not an existance where there's nothing but crime), more jobs, and a greater unity and concern for your fellow human beings to rise economically together.
thanks
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yavoon
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if ur childhood really was a complete disaster then maybe its time to think down the line and work hard so ur kids are not like that.
most upward ascention is slow. 2-3 generations long. not instantaneous. just ask asian immigrants.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:29
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I believe it's possible to succeed no mattere where you come from. With this I mean western countries, it is definitely not always possible if you're born in a very unfortunate place like some African countries, or very poor Asian countries etc.. then your chances are very slim, or almost none.
But here, I believe everyone has a chance. It is easier for some folks, but it is possible for anyone, that's what I believe. If you work enough, hard enough and focus on your goals.. anything can happen. Just have to believe in it.. and use the backdoor sometimes if you are shut down. Some people do get better position to start going for the goals for sure, but I think if you know what you want and go for it 24/7, you'll get it.
My dads family was poor as hell.. 7 kids there in a small house, and dirt poor. My dad still made it, never had higher education but worked very very hard, and he made it nice. I had pretty good place to live, when he didn't. The point is, he didn't get nice things when he was a kid, but he worked hard so I could get them. And I did. I'm determined to make it the same way, coming back with even more than my old man, because that's what he did. And then I can give to my kids too. And I can afford picking up the habit of snorting cocaine instead of having my morning coffee  .
Just joking.
Just think positive and drive hard to your dreams, don't let anyone say you otherwise. You don't have to kill them, but don't let anyone get into your way. I know, it's all about the opportunity, but if you look for it hard, and outsmart people, you will get it, I know you will...
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:29
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quote:
it is morally and practically wrong to not allow people to have a solid ground to stand on before reaching for the top.
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It may be morally wrong, but how can such equality of opportunity be achieved? I doubt that we will ever eliminate all the barriers in society. The most we can try to do is to help those we see in need.
One of the central tenets of political conservatism is that society does not shape man, but that man shapes society. No matter how much we improve society, we will always have the same problems of inequality of wealth.
A good first step would be to make sure that every child has the chance to have three square meals a day, so that they will be ready to learn and not hungry when they go to school.
Another would be to properly fund schools so that they have all the textbooks and supplies necessary to teach the students. The only problem is that these things cost money, and where is the money going to come from? Taxes, otherwise known as wealth redistribution.
Even so, bad stuff happens. Sometimes people just have to play the cards they are dealt, even if it means that they don't get to go on and go to university. There is more to life than getting a higher education.
You've reminded me of a famous quote:
"If a man is called to be a streetsweeper,
he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted,
or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry.
He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts
of heaven and earth will pause to say,
here lived a great streetsweeper who did his job well."
- Martin Luther King -
How much better would we be if everyone did this?
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Cruddy
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For me, opportunity has been rare - but I have sought it, and gotten the odd break.
Maybe the secret isn't to create more opportunity, but to increase the appetite for it? That is, increase motivation...
If you think you don't have opportunities, that luck won't deal you a good hand once in a while - then you don't.
Positive mental attitude is very important too, Herr Speer.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:29
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quote:
the problem with many conservatives is that they assume that oppurtunity is always availible and while it surely does exist, when it comes down to practicality, you can not claim that its simple existance means that anyone can succeed.
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No one ever has ever claimed equaility in success...
Equal Opportunity does not mean equal success...
Granted that some kids have greater opportunity due to their social and privilaged up-bringing. Yet, that is inpart realted to their parents... As you mentioned coming from a broken home makes getting what you need difficult enough, not to mention what it is you want. However, this not the fault nor responsibilty of conservatives, liberals, or that of equal opportunity laws and statures. The problem lies in the parents and of the society to which no reform can fix.
So you can continue to place blame where it doesn't belong, but that will accomplish nothing.
I know that you, Speers, have not had it easy, but it seems to me that you have managed to get a handle on the system well enough. I also think that you know what, and who is to blame for all the difficulties that you have had in getting to where are today. Don't turn a blind eye to them because you begin to rant about the wrong things and not see what the true problem is...
The government is not there to give you what you want, they are there to give you what you need.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:29
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Anyway we need binmen and waitresses. Who is going to that if not the lazy, stupid or unfortunate?
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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yeah yeah thats all good and fine and i know people can be strong and rise up out of whatever horrible situation... but my point is, most do not because they get daunted by the difficulties. exactly why must it be so hard for some people? why not provide them with a good beginning like a good public education and a stable home.
for the sake of practicality, why have there be only a talented tenth lifting themselves by their bootstraps? why not more being helped, just a little, to lift themselves up?
only the humane thing to do
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:29
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This thread has started me thinking. Who can a disadvantaged person create opertunities for themself when no one (i.e. parents or what not) is there to give them opertunities. I've made a sort of list of productive things a person can do to improve their life.
1. Complete your high school education. To many poor people drop out of school and then blame capitalism for their lack of success in life. Completing high school is the most basicv meal ticket out there and if you can do it (Honestly, who can't do it?) then you can go on to #2.
2. Complete college. There are lots of state schools for less then $4000 per year and there are JCs for less then $500 per year all of which will get you a college degree and all of which will give you grants and student loans for the total amount. Still not enough money? Newsweek says millions of dollars in scholarships go unclaimed each year simply because no one bothers to enter into the contest so write essays until your fingers fall off and you will probably win a few. Even more is needed? Then ROTC will pay the whole thing if you join the military or you could join reserves or the active duty and you will get a 100% free education. Again this requires work, initiative, and disipline but it can easily be done.
3. While in school apply for every intership you can think of and do it as early as you can. This will give you job experience in your selected field and will give you contacts in your field of choice. This will give you a big head start on #4
4. Get a job. To many poor people just sit around whining about not having a job but don't actually bother to go look for one. It's like they think one will fall out of the sky and just land in their lap. Think of finding a job as being your job. Work eight hours a day monday through friday writting & rewritting your resume, getting interview & resume books from the library, opening the yellow pages and calling every single company in your field (make sure you get the HR Manager's name and send him a resume and cover letter to keep on file even if they aren't hiring), go on hotjobs & monster and all the other internet job sits because if you can't find a job in your area maybe there's one in another city. Lastly, network, network, network. I can't stress how important this part is; talk to everyone you know in the field and make sure they know you're looking for a job, go to the industry social group in your city (look on the internet there are groups for EVERY industry you can think of. Doing this will show you are interested in the field, keep you near others in the field, and you just might run into someone who knows about a job.
5. Now you have a job but you need more money. Ok, maybe your problem is spending to much. Make out a budget and STICK TO THE BUDGET this will help you keep track of what your spending your money on and where you can make savings. I was shocked to see how much I wasted on restaurants and clubbing, but, since making a budget I've found I make plenty of money and can now reach my savings goals just by keeping better track of my expenses.
6. You made a budget but you still can't reach your savings goals? Time to think about doing things which will bring in a little extra money. How about writting a book or a second job (see part about Army reserve) which you can work on the weekends, maybe opening an internet site is more your style? Heck, if you have nothing else to do sell stuff at the swap meet or on ebay. The point is there are lots of opertunities to make extra money but most people are to lazy to actually do them.
7. How do I build long term wealth? First avoid high interest debt like the plague. Once you are debt free build up an emergency fund which will cover everything you need to pay for two month just in case you lose your job or have an unexpected expense you have to pay. Done all that? Have money autodeducted from your pay check into some form of long term savings program. I like 401ks and IRAs but I also put money into my "Buy a house" fund. Speaking of buying a house; that is the surest way to build up serious money that you will ever find. Buy a house and watch your net worth climb as it appriates and you build equity in it.
Anyone else have any other suggestions?
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The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
None sense it's getting easier to climb then ever before. A college education is open to just about anyone who wants one and who's willing to put even the slightest bit of effort into it. |
Too bad it doesn't really mean as much anymore. In fact, a degree is becoming a necessity just to get a resume not thrown in the circular file at many workplaces now. A degree has become something of a floor in the way a high school diploma once was - one is now expected to have one.
Nowadays a maters is even starting to become a necessity ...
quote:
Speaking of jobs they've never been higher paying nor as plentiful as they've been in the last 10-15 years. Sure, we're going through a slight slump now but this is nothing major and in the long run its nothing more then a bump in the road. |
Uh,no. Real wages (i.e. taking inflation into account) have been falling for 4/5 of Americans for going on about 30 years now. And tell the high skilled college educated tech workers who have been laid off for sometime up to two years now about this being a bump in the road.
A few more years and there will be three classes in America: insanely wealthy venture capitalists, a highly paid middle class of lawyers, bankers, and executives, and a giant impoverished class with no upward mobility at all doing whatever job they are lucky enough to have. Won't that be a fun place to live!
And as for this work hard nonsense ...
You can work as hard as you like, but if you have neither (1) access to large amounts of capital, (2) access to an education AND an education will put you ahead in the job market then you are working hard to go nowhere.
Yep, we need waitresses and bin cleaners. But I taught many upper and middle class kids at a certain private university in New Orleans for 3 years - and mixed in among many of those students (taking up valuable educational resources) were a hell of a lot of bin cleaners who got in on the virtue of their parents' money. Makes me wonder how many geniuses with poor parents are stuck cleaning bins.
Ming and Boddingtons seem to be suffering from "i know an orphan who ..." syndrome. That's where you know one orphan who started with nothing and built a great business empire. I'm glad you know some people who made it into the middle or upper class from the lower class. But that tells me nothing of the likelihood of someone being able to do so. For every orphan who starts a business empire, there could be 100 who despite their best efforts go nowhere because they just lacked anything to use as a springboard. Likewise, people like Ming and Boddingtons rely on antecdotal evidence that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. What percentage of do these successful bootstrappers represent?
This of course ignores the fact that the work hard enough theory could only be true if there is an infinite capacity for all of the hard work in society. If there is not, then only a limited number of people can indeed work hard enough and still achieve. Besides, if everybody worked hard enough - wouldn't that leave us without anybody to serve the food and clean the bins? 
Of course, this is just more blaming thew victim to cover up the cognitive dissonace the American dream causes. Poor? Must not be working hard enough, so you deserve it! Your unbridled Reaganesque philosophy is an unfounded as it is sickening.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
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so what exactly would you propose to do about it templar?
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:29
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Oerdin
That is exactly what I have done, and am doing... Though my debt has gone up in the short term due to car troubles, but I am still contributing to my 401k and have 3 mos salary saved, plus 12k in that house fund (though it is tied up in stocks at this time)...
Too your list:
8. Mentors
Somewhere between 1 and 2 or in 2, people should also find a mentor or mentoring group. This can be professor or friend, someone who can give you the encouragement, advice, and brothership one needs to strive over the hurdles they are facing. This should be someone who has your own best interests in mind, and honestly wants to see you succeed for naught of reward or love... One may find multiple mentors/mentoring groups, hey the more the merrier. Campus organizations, clubs, teams, etc. are good places to find these people, or through employment, study groups, or even online communities (not 'poly of course, we're all freakin' nutz... )
Actually, Mentors should be used throughout your whole life, it will give you the strive you need to better yourself constantly.
9. Friends
I live by a theory; You become the company you keep. With this I mean hang-out with, be friends with, the type of people you wish to be like, or which can benefit you from knowing. So many people hang out with a bad crowd, though they may be awesome people, their lack of success or desire for success holds you back and keeps you down. Succeeding will only ostracize you in their eyes, causing them to call you a sell-out, or too good for this crowd... It may be tough to do, but it will help.
10.
Game Plan; develop a game plan and do everything you can do to stick to it. Before college I lived on 5 year plans. After college I set another 5 year plan, now that I have reached the end of that plan I have set a 10 year plan. These plans may take sometime to come with, but once you have done so write it out. Step-by-step, and place it in a place you will see it every day. I keep mine taped to the mirror in the bathroom, and as I brush my teeth I read it through. As you accomplish certain milestones, cross it out... This may seem tacky, but it works. Words are reality, only when they are written down, spoken, and acted on, not just as mere thoughts or intentions. Having a daily reminder of what it is you want, were you are going, and how your are going to get there gives you that drive.
---
Will think of more.
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28-07-2003 13:30
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