29-07-2003 05:39									#91
	Full PM-box? Change here!

a lot are interest only loans for 'x' number of years too, to give you time to get the buisness on it's feet.

	29-07-2003 05:41									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If you hedge everything you will get a smaller return because you have lessened your exposure to risk.

True enough, and that's why I said you should be well diversified. Putting it all in risky ventures is not only risky, but pretty stupid. Plus, if you are going to get risky, you should spread the risk out, so if one element becomes worthless, your other risky ventures can make up for it. And then you need to balance it all off with some Non risk investment to maintain some capital incase of things like what happened after 911 when many people lost over half of their retirement funds.

	29-07-2003 05:44									#93
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quote: I agree with you that someone shouldn't be forced to do anything, but that doesn't change that giving to those in need is the right thing to do, surely you don't disagree.

Which is exactly why I strongly support the social welfare system (forcing people to be good) being scrapped, and in its place having charities help the needy (allowing people to choose to be good).

	29-07-2003 05:44									#94
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Like Albert, I've come from the bottom 10% income bracket, so I've seen poverty. Many of my friends are dead, or in prison. Poverty is something that I don't want anyone else to have to suffer through again. Many here have talked about investing, or opening small buisnesses. And there are all well and good, but the only thing that will ever bring true wealth is compassion. When people realize this, concepts like buisness will be seen as the anachronisms that they are.

	29-07-2003 05:44									#95
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David

	29-07-2003 05:45									#96
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quote: If you are born with the right genes you will succeed no matter what, some people no matter what will never be able to become lawyers, bankers etc because they simply lack the mental capacity.

I will agree that genetics can be a limiting factor (i.e. a retarded person won't ever become a nuclear physist) but genes don't mean you will "succeed no matter what". Watch the movie Gatica to see a good take on this.

	29-07-2003 05:47									#97
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Which is exactly why I strongly support the social welfare system (forcing people to be good) being scrapped, and in its place having charities help the needy (allowing people to choose to be good).

Well, you won't be disappointed then.

Of course, this will only happen when people no longer need such institutions. In other words, you will have your libertarianism, but only when humanity evolves to a stage where the specific goal of libertarianism is to achieve a communist-like society.

	29-07-2003 05:49									#98
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider When people realize this, concepts like buisness will be seen as the anachronisms that they are.

Business is where you get the money to put your compassion to a useful end. Without business you don't have the resources to help anyone.

	29-07-2003 05:50									#99
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quote: Of course, this will only happen when people no longer need such institutions.

Great, so we can stop forcing people to be good when people no longer need to be forced?

Personally, I don't donate a single red nickel to a charity and I don't give money to people on the side of the road. You know why? I'm already taxed that money - I'm forced to give. If I wasn't being forced to support social welfare programs, and the like, I'd be much more likely to give to the truly needy.

As things are, my money is being mismanaged - but it isn't my fault. Blame the government.

	29-07-2003 05:52									#100
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Sounds like David has rationalized himself a reason to just sit and do nothing. If you don't feel like giving money then give time.

	29-07-2003 05:57									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Business is where you get the money to put your compassion to a useful end. Without business you don't have the resources to help anyone.

For now, what you say is true to a large extent. But if buisnesses decieded to focus on the common good, rather than competing with each other, they wouldn't really be buisnesses, now would they?

	29-07-2003 06:03									#102
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Great, so we can stop forcing people to be good when people no longer need to be forced?

In short, yes.
I know that might not be the answer you were looking for. But when humanity evolves to a state where it realizes it's purpose, then welfare institutions (and government in general) are no longer needed.

quote: Personally, I don't donate a single red nickel to a charity and I don't give money to people on the side of the road. You know why? I'm already taxed that money - I'm forced to give. If I wasn't being forced to support social welfare programs, and the like, I'd be much more likely to give to the truly needy. As things are, my money is being mismanaged - but it isn't my fault. Blame the government.

Well, I see your point. But eventually you'll realize that when the portion of your tax money that went to welfare obviously wasn't enough to help out the needy, that you should give twice, or thrice (or more!) whatever your taxes were to the needy. Of course you shouldn't be forced to do this, so don't worry.
It's just that eventually , you'll realize that this is the thing to do.

	29-07-2003 06:06									#103
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What we need are more nonprofit organizations to step up and slowly take the role of businesses. Apolyton is an example of such a venture that is otherwise run as a business, but doesn't seek to make a profit.

There are other examples, such as nonprofit hospitals, etc. Many privately held companies also have other goals beyond just making money for its owner. It is the public corporation that tends to focus only on the bottom line.

	29-07-2003 06:09									#104
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quote: Well, I see your point. But eventually you'll realize that when the portion of your tax money that went to welfare obviously wasn't enough to help out the needy, that you should give twice, or thrice (or more!) whatever your taxes were to the needy. Of course you shouldn't be forced to do this, so don't worry. It's just that eventually , you'll realize that this is the thing to do.

Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that I would not have a problem doing this if I wasn't being taxed and having my money mismanaged by the federal government in the first place.

	29-07-2003 06:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Soul Survivor What people have been ignoring so far is genetics...... If you are born with the right genes you will succeed no matter what, some people no matter what will never be able to become lawyers, bankers etc because they simply lack the mental capacity. The higher up you start the less intelligence you need to succeed. Luck of the draw...........

The genetics argument is BS when applied to intellectual pursuits (there is still justification in things such as sports). The human brain has a far larger capacity than the demands of all but a few jobs (the US presidency being one of them) so unless you're brain damaged from drug use or boozing during pregnancy (now why is that not a crime?) genetics aren't going to hold you back that much.

	29-07-2003 06:13									#106
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider For now, what you say is true to a large extent. But if buisnesses decieded to focus on the common good, rather than competing with each other, they wouldn't really be buisnesses, now would they?

No, they'd be bankrupt.

	29-07-2003 06:23									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley The genetics argument is BS when applied to intellectual pursuits (there is still justification in things such as sports). The human brain has a far larger capacity than the demands of all but a few jobs (the US presidency being one of them) so unless you're brain damaged from drug use or boozing during pregnancy (now why is that not a crime?) genetics aren't going to hold you back that much.

So you're saying that someone who can get an 800 on the Math SAT's, without tutors, without studying has no advantage over someone with the exact same background who studies for a dozen hours each week, gets tutors for months and can only get a 550......

	29-07-2003 06:23									#108
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quote: But eventually you'll realize that when the portion of your tax money that went to welfare obviously wasn't enough to help out the needy, that you should give twice, or thrice (or more!) whatever your taxes were to the needy

Your insane! There are less needy people in this country than there are people paying taxes. Why would I want to give more the needy who are already taking a lot. If it ain't getting to them then it is the governments fault and not mine, and I would rather shout at my congressman than give a bum on the streat alcohol money! That's my alcohol, and I worked hard for it!

	29-07-2003 06:28									#109
	Suffering from ads?

"They can sell their home, and rent one instead, while using the money from the sale to start their own business..."

Good god man, are you insane??? Do you even realize how expensive it is to start your own business, and indeed how many of them crash and burn??? And then you talk about reducing risk by diversifying in stock!!!

Ming's wrong again, quel supris...

	29-07-2003 06:29									#110
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Seeing as Monolith has successfully debunked Mings response I would say that conversation is mute

	29-07-2003 06:38									#111
	Tired of ads?

I suspect ming's silver spoon is all-a full of crack - only that can account for his addle minded comments.

	29-07-2003 07:04									#112
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Good god man, are you insane??? Do you even realize how expensive it is to start your own business, and indeed how many of them crash and burn??? And then you talk about reducing risk by diversifying in stock!!! Ming's wrong again, quel supris...

Both are different cases for different situations...

Yes, you can lose your shirt starting a business, and you can also succeed beyond your wildest dreams... it's a risk. It's a matter of CHOICE... and that was the point being made. He was claiming they didn't have a choice... yet there was a choice, just one they aren't willing to risk or take.

So I am in no means wrong... you are the one in the wrong by saying threre is NO choice... like usual

	29-07-2003 07:12									#113
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I suspect ming's silver spoon is all-a full of crack - only that can account for his addle minded comments.

Ming just thinks he is so wise because he is a Mod.

	29-07-2003 07:16									#114
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"Yes, you can lose your shirt starting a business, and you can also succeed beyond your wildest dreams... it's a risk. It's a matter of CHOICE..."

So if they do decide to risk everything, and put their hearts and souls into a new business, and it fails, either do to, say, some bigger company moving in, or unexpected economic circumstances, and they lose everything, then what? It's not an easy choice, is it? In addition, founding a new business is not an easy thing, it requires a certain amount of know how and savvy, certainly in this modern age. Are you going to tell me that any poor kid living in the ghetto, just barely inching by on rent, has the opportunity to strike out on his or her own???

	29-07-2003 07:17									#115
	Remove this text

Well Ming isn't wrong per se, I think there is some truth in his fiction. But I think his attitude would be sharply altered if he had to live a day in the shoes of someone struggling financially. He has some good things to say, but lacks the perspective of someone who has seen poverty first hand. If circumstances were different, I think he would be far more likely to find some common ground with us.

	29-07-2003 07:27									#116
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The old "what can he possible know, he has money" whine... i could say that maybe you guys don't really understand antyhing because you have no experience of real life because you haven't lived long enough... But I don't, because that's not a valid comment either.

Life is about making choices... if you are afraid to make them, or just too lazy, you shouldn't complain about your current situation.

If you want to score big, sometimes you have to take some risks... even if cricumstances were different, I would give the same advice.

Oh... and I have lived from pay check to pay check before in the past... I took the risks... and they paid off.

	29-07-2003 07:30									#117
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And if they hadn't? You'd have started again, of course!

	29-07-2003 07:34									#118
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That's right... I would have started all over again... a choice.

	29-07-2003 08:28									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Business is where you get the money to put your compassion to a useful end. Without business you don't have the resources to help anyone.

Business is our highly dubious method for distributing resources. The theory is that people will vot with their money in the marketplace and seek to maximize their value preferences. In reality, business sets the initial state of the marketplace in ways designed to maximize profits. This delimits your choices of which values to maximize. Business then uses advertising to help create second order value preference that - you guessed it - seek to create value preferences in line with profit maximization.

Why is this bad (and collaterally, why is Ming evil)? Glad you asked. Take Fast Food (and I highly recommend the book "Fast Food Nation" on this subject). Not healthy, is a likely cause of obesity, has high amounts of extraneous fecal matter in the meat, companies buy meat from jerks who cut down rainforest, so on and so forth. Why on Earth would people eat this crap? A proper second order value preference would be for long term health over taste or low prices. So what do fast food companies do? Aim their ads at children to create a preference for the fast food. Moreover advertizers are deliberately trying to provoke kids to nag and act rude towards their parents. So next time you see a rude child in public, you have Madison Ave. to thank.

Non-profits and academia offer two alternative models even within our capitalist system for the distribution of scarce resources.

	29-07-2003 08:41									#120
	Remove this text

Speer becomes a libreal...what next? France conquers the world?!