29-07-2003 00:14									#31
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Templar: Chance favors those minds which are best prepared... who said that?

So luck has something to do with it, but not everything.

Yes, Smiley, it does still take a village to raise a child... But a village can also raise a brat...

No system will work well "enough", someone will always complain no matter what. Thus, it is up to the individual to work for and take what it is they are after and want.

	29-07-2003 00:16									#32
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You can't force people to live in extended families...

Yeah, it would be better if that was the case... to spread out the responsibilities... but that's not realistic.
Life is what it is... The government should step in when the situation is bad... but the child then ends up in a foster home or worse.

If the government spent the money better, maybe some programs could be developed that would help the problem. Because the current method isn't working... The money is being spent poorly.

Charities like The Off the Street Club do what they can. And it is wonderful what they are doing. We need more people to get involved with money or time if this problem is going to be solved... Because the government isn't the answer based on it's track record.

	29-07-2003 00:22									#33
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And one question to The Templar...

What are you doing about the problem. Do you give your time to charities to help these kids get ahead... Do you give them money to help... Do you act as a big brother for some disadvantged poor kid to help make up for the father he doesn't have...

Or do you just whine about how unfair life is for these kids...

Just wondering.

Anything is possible if you work at it... especially when there are people willing to help you do so.

	29-07-2003 02:10									#34
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damn i knew a communist would come in here and completely take over my position and use it for communist rhetoric...

my main point is that we need to improve public education (your list, Oerdin, which is very good, seems to be based on a high school education... the public school systems are mediocre and they need some improvement perhaps through vouchers or privatization), get some more jobs in poorer areas (needed most in rural/trailer park areas), have more of this helping your fellow man like that Off the Street Club that Ming mentioned, and let there be some place for those who did make a few mistakes to make up for their mistakes (ie- tax breaks for businesses hiring convicts)

so i'm not taking the leftist arguement by any means but being even more right wing if anything... better schools possibly through privatization, a greater emphasis on charity organizations, and a pro-business stance to get more businesses and jobs into poor communities...

i know some men in their 30's who have recently come out of jail and are now trying to get their lives together. when they were younger, they choose the streets cause it seemed a good idea at the time... the pay was better and the hours were shorter know what i mean? now, though they want to live the legit life, the only jobs they can really get are minimum wage ones. they are striving but why must it be that their criminal past must haunt them and prevent them from getting a better job? and how can they finish school or go to night school if they got to work double shifts to pay the bills on minimum wage? better than flipping burgers don't seem likely for them anytime soon and it wouldn't take much for them to get back into crime but hopefully they'll keep at it... i just think these men need a little boost... even a business willing to hire them for more than minimum wage would take them far.

	29-07-2003 02:45									#35
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Speers:

I agree with you 100%, that we need all those things; better education, better social systems, more jobs, etc... Yet, attacking conservatives and saying that there just isn't an opportunity is not saying this... Why, because everyone (liberals and conservatives alike) want these things, and to be hard there are opportunities, though more would be nice... Yet begger's can't be choosers, we all have to play the hand we're dealt.

IMO, social reform will take on itself if ppl themselves are reformed, i.e. by taking care of the other programs. Thus, education and increasing the job market. This is why I am against the current situation of the social programs, and it is why I feel that throwing more money at the problem won't fix it. If we threw more money at education and those who supply jobs then perhaps we can solve the rest of the problems, for those who want the help to solve them...

	29-07-2003 02:46									#36
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Well I must say that despite the fact of what people seem to go on about opportunity, I have had precious little since I left university, and hell, when I thought I have had a good opportunity it has been a dead end where I have been shafted. It is a hard rut to get out of despite your efforts - it's very easy to be idealistic about it, but sometimes, things just never work out how you want them to...

	29-07-2003 02:54									#37
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No... they don't always work they way you would like.
That's life. Life isn't easy...
But the trick is not give up... and try harder. Just because one thing hasn't worked out, doesn't mean others won't.
But once you do give up... it is indeed over.

	29-07-2003 02:56									#38
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I haven't given up, but it certainly feels like I am banging my head on a brick wall...

	29-07-2003 03:01									#39
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I agree with Speer that we should privitize education and force people to rely on charities, by eliminating welfare, if those are the arguments he is making. Of course, Speer and I differ in that I don't really care whether or not doing this would significantly improve the lot of poor people, I only care about what is right.

	29-07-2003 03:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer damn i knew a communist would come in here and completely take over my position and use it for communist rhetoric...

No one is doing that.

	29-07-2003 03:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The majority of the kids that have gone through the program have succeeded in life.

What do you mean they have succeeded. That depends on the goals that they have set for themselves. Usually people can avoid extreme poverty if they don't give up. Is that all we're talking about?

	29-07-2003 03:08									#42
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Perhaps you should look at what these 'communists' are trying to point out without letting your indoctrination get in the way. You seem to make a connection at one level with the problems that are going on and then pull out at the last moment because of what has been force fed to you. Question completely and look at all philosophies regarding the situation rather than disgard them because it has been taught to you that it is 'inferior'...

	29-07-2003 03:21									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What do you mean they have succeeded. That depends on the goals that they have set for themselves. Usually people can avoid extreme poverty if they don't give up. Is that all we're talking about?

No... that's not what I'm talking about.

You are correct when you say it depends on the goals they set. Some have become Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, Advertising Executives, and even just plain old happy Mothers... Some even come back to work at the club so that they can help others. When I say succeeded, it means they met the goals they set for themselves.

For some.. that meant being happy and raising a family in a safe place away from the hell they had to grow up in, and for others, it meant a career, or advanced degrees... it was a matter of they wanted. And they made the choices to make it happen. And no... it wasn't easy for them.

	29-07-2003 03:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And one question to The Templar... What are you doing about the problem. Do you give your time to charities to help these kids get ahead... Do you give them money to help... Do you act as a big brother for some disadvantged poor kid to help make up for the father he doesn't have...

Right now I work with an organization that provides legal assitance to poor and indigent civil litigants - especially in housing disputes - in the South (I mean "Downtown") Bronx. I believe that affordable and adequate housing is a real boon to families (and everybody else for that matter). I would also wager that test scores are higher when you can study in a rat-free environment.

quote: Just wondering.

No you weren't - you were trying to make an ad hominem attack along the lines of "so what do you do for the poor Mr. Socialist." But even if I worked at the big Wall Street Law Firm, if my point is right, it is right.

quote: Anything is possible if you work at it... especially when there are people willing to help you do so.

How very Horatio Alger
(And my cat, no matter how hard she works, will never learn to read )

But seriously, some things are just so improbable that it is foolish to try. I will never be the Republican candidate for president, for instance.

Then again, if anything is possible if I work for it, I guess I'll start right now in creating a communist majority in the US.

BTW, I am a firm believer in hard work. I've worked pretty hard to achieve what I have. But, I see too many cases where people work their asses off only to get nowhere. And its not as if these hard working people are squandering their money - their paychecks from two or three jobs barely allow them to live month to month. I've seen it in New York, but I've also seen it in New Orleans (which is a very cheap place to live) and Austin (a moderatey priced place to live). If you want to talk about hard work equalling a comfortable standard of living, then capitalism is not your system.

	29-07-2003 03:27									#45
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I agree with Speer that we should privitize education and force people to rely on charities, by eliminating welfare, if those are the arguments he is making. Of course, Speer and I differ in that I don't really care whether or not doing this would significantly improve the lot of poor people, I only care about what is right.

But didn't Jesus say that if a man asks for your coat to give him your shirt as well? Isn't that what's right?

	29-07-2003 03:28									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... that's not what I'm talking about. You are correct when you say it depends on the goals they set. Some have become Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, Advertising Executives, and even just plain old happy Mothers... Some even come back to work at the club so that they can help others. When I say succeeded, it means they met the goals they set for themselves. For some.. that meant being happy and raising a family in a safe place away from the hell they had to grow up in, and for others, it meant a career, or advanced degrees... it was a matter of they wanted. And they made the choices to make it happen. And no... it wasn't easy for them.

Most of them probably set realistic goals for themselves though. I'm sure.

	29-07-2003 03:34									#47
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quote: But didn't Jesus say that if a man asks for your coat to give him your shirt as well? Isn't that what's right?

We've had this discussion before, and you know quite well that my position is that forcing someone to do what is right is wrong.

	29-07-2003 03:34									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Most of them probably set realistic goals for themselves though. I'm sure.

Maybe your friends would... but these kids set goals THEY wanted to attain. They weren't limited in their thinking like you seem to be. The youth is the hope of the future, and these kids didn't limit their dreams.

And why should they... what do you consider "realistic" goals for them should be... waitress... nurse... bartender... or are you just looking down your nose at them. They have as much right to set goals as anybody else does. And they set their goals as high as they desired.

	29-07-2003 03:47									#49
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Most people set their goals according to their opportunity. If they have the talent to be doctors then that would be a realistic goal as long as they are willing to work at it. Not everyone can become a doctor though. My dad tried to become a doctor and failed. He is a very smart person, and believes much like you about hard work. He couldn't get into med school so he became a nurse. He had every intention of becoming better off then he is, but he had to settle for less. He still works very hard and saves his money, but the opportunity just isn't there for him to reach his desired goals.

	29-07-2003 03:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't want to spend my whole life making sacrifices so that I MIGHT end up with a little more savings, and I don't have to. That doesn't mean that I deserve to be poor.

If you are not willing to do what it takes to change your position then, yes, you do deserve exactly what you get. Harsh but true my friend.

quote: Rich people don't have to make sacrifices to be rich. They just are.

That's a complete lie. 9 out of 10 American millionares created their fortune, as opposed to inheriting, in their own life time. That means they took chances, started their own company, invested, saved, and sacrificed to get where they are. It is very simple minded to just say "well, they're rich because they just are".

quote: The fact that poor people have to work harder and save more to have the chance of ending their life with property makes the system unfair.

Life is unfair deal with it. The question is will you do something to make your situation better or will you just sit there whining about how unfair it all is and demand somebody give you something for nothing?

	29-07-2003 03:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Right now I work with an organization that provides legal assitance to poor and indigent civil litigants - especially in housing disputes - in the South (I mean "Downtown") Bronx. I believe that affordable and adequate housing is a real boon to families (and everybody else for that matter). I would also wager that test scores are higher when you can study in a rat-free environment.

At least you aren't all talk and no action... good for you.

quote: No you weren't - you were trying to make an ad hominem attack along the lines of "so what do you do for the poor Mr. Socialist."

Yes.. I was... because many "socialists" talk a good game and do nothing about it. And it was only fair since you attacked first with your earlier holier than thou comments What you don't seem to understand is that some of us conservatives care too, and actually do something about it.

quote: Then again, if anything is possible if I work for it, I guess I'll start right now in creating a communist majority in the US.

All power to you... of course I have no desire to see you succeed, but I totally respect somebody that not only sees a need a for change, but actually tries to do something about it instead of just whining like a stuck pig about how unfair things are.

quote: BTW, I am a firm believer in hard work. I've worked pretty hard to achieve what I have. But, I see too many cases where people work their asses off only to get nowhere. And its not as if these hard working people are squandering their money - their paychecks from two or three jobs barely allow them to live month to month. I've seen it in New York, but I've also seen it in New Orleans (which is a very cheap place to live) and Austin (a moderatey priced place to live). If you want to talk about hard work equalling a comfortable standard of living, then capitalism is not your system.

Hard work is just a part of it... it's also about making the right choices to begin with. Many people see no answer but to work multiple dead end jobs to make ends meet.

Another person might still work those same dead end jobs, but at the same time, take some night or computer classes to get an education in something that will get them out of the trap.

I've never said that Capitalism is the perfect system... But it sure beat the hell out of all the alternatives to date. It gives you the "chance" to succeed... if people make the wrong choices... it's not the systems fault.
The system does make it harder for some people than others... but the chance is there.

I've seen many young kids from the worst and poorest section of the city walk into a building that they knew would keep them safe... and learn how they too had choices... and then make them... and then succeed.
They had to work hard... and a lot of people helped them along the way... but they had to take the first step, and then continue along a very difficult path.

	29-07-2003 03:58									#52
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Albert Speer:

quote: better schools possibly through privatization

I'm not familiar with US politics, but how could privatizing schools help those with little opportunities? Now I presume all education until university in the US is paid for by the government, and everyone can follow it freely. How would having to pay a private company for your education help the poor?

quote: a greater emphasis on charity organizations

I'd argue that's exactly what's not needed. IMHO getting more opportunities shouldn't be based on some fortunate accidental charity by some wealthy dude, but on structural changes to the system, which automatically give the poor more chances to lift themselves up.

	29-07-2003 03:59									#53
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quote: My dad tried to become a doctor and failed. He is a very smart person, and believes much like you about hard work. He couldn't get into med school so he became a nurse. He had every intention of becoming better off then he is, but he had to settle for less. He still works very hard and saves his money, but the opportunity just isn't there for him to reach his desired goals.

Did I miss something here? Sounds like he had the opportunity to become a doctor, but failed at that opportunity. What stopped him from applying again, or to more schools, or continue education and then apply again? Sounds to me like he gave up a dream that was not a dream at all, more of a hope than a desire...

	29-07-2003 03:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you are not willing to do what it takes to change your position then, yes, you do deserve exactly what you get. Harsh but true my friend.

If I had a significant chance to become a millionaire and still have time to spend it then I would. That would be a rational decision. I've weighed the costs and potential benefits of that and have determined that there is no significant chance of success. So are you telling me that because I have made a rational decision that I deserve less?

	29-07-2003 04:04									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Did I miss something here? Sounds like he had the opportunity to become a doctor, but failed at that opportunity. What stopped him from applying again, or to more schools, or continue education and then apply again? Sounds to me like he gave up a dream that was not a dream at all, more of a hope than a desire...

You are confusing the opportunity to try something with the opportunity to achieve something. Sure he could keep trying to become a doctor, most definitely unsuccessfully. He had a family so he set a more realistic goal for himself.

	29-07-2003 04:09									#56
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and you Kid, are confusing opportunity with success, or as you put it, opportunity to succeed... the only opportunity owed to any American is the opportunity to try and succeed.

	29-07-2003 04:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Japher the only opportunity owed to any American is the opportunity to try and succeed.

Ok For that matter everyone in the world has equal opportunity.

	29-07-2003 04:13									#58
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You really think so?

	29-07-2003 04:22									#59
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You think he was denied the opportunity to become a doctor because he didn't get into Med School? On his first try? Why didn't he get in? Was because he was poor, rich, black, white?

	29-07-2003 04:24									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You really think so?

Yes, everyone has the opportunity to try. Everyone does NOT have the opportunity to make as much money as the richest person or even make anything near what the richest person makes.