29-07-2003 08:43									#121
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Next time you see a rude kid in public, blame the real problem. THEIR PARENTS for not raising them right.

But that's pretty typical of people like Templar, find somebody else to blame... Blame all the world ills, even misbehaving children on capitalism.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Pretty lame argument....

	29-07-2003 08:50									#122
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Here.

For all those who keep railing about how the opportunities aren't there....a gift.

Wanna know how to succeed economically? How to better yourself financially?

Follow these steps:

1) Spend less than you earn

2) Buy something that will increase in value over time

That's all.

Sound easy? It's not. It takes discipline and personal sacrifice.

If you are willing to do those things, you will succeed.

If not, you will no doubt become a communist or socialist supporter and rail about how unfair the system is.

Choose.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 08:50									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Next time you see a rude kid in public, blame the real problem. THEIR PARENTS for not raising them right. But that's pretty typical of people like Templar, find somebody else to blame... Blame all the world ills, even misbehaving children on capitalism. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA Pretty lame argument....

Granted, most kids need to be slapped around a bit more, but parents are also having to deal with a profit motivated industry that are using knowledge of child psychology and parental psychology to get more profit.

Check out pages 42-57 in "Fast Food Nation". Advertises have been quick to pick up on child psychology studies. Moreover, most psychology majors I knew in undergrad went into advertising related ventures. A collegue in Grad School had a wife that was working on her psychology Ph.D. Her research was funded in part by an advertising trade group.

	29-07-2003 08:54									#124
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And by the way, the rich? The folks who Kid says "just are" rich?

Newsflash....someone, somewhere in that rich person's life and/or family (yep, even those who were born to wealth) followed the *exact* two steps above.

Wealth isn't created just by pulling it out of your arse. If YOU personally were fortunate enough to be born to wealth, then it is only because someone before you spent less than they earned, and bought something that increased in value over time.

Kid says he can't become rich, because he doesn't want to make the sacrifices.

That's a choice. He's already made it.

He could have chosen differently, and still can. At the core, it says that even IF he sacrifices and spends less than he earns, he is not confident enough in his abilities to select something to buy that will increase in value over time.

Choice.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 08:59									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Next time you see a rude kid in public, blame the real problem. THEIR PARENTS for not raising them right.

The Advertiser tries to save his own @ss.

It's YOUR ads that make people way to materialistic and impulse shoppers. No wonder my Comrades hate your guts, you symbolize one of the evils of capitalism, advertisement.

No wonder your anti-commie, you'd loose your job. We have found your alterior motive; find a different job or the revolution will waste your posterior.

Templar, GO ACEDEMIA!!!

	29-07-2003 09:06									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ming i could say that maybe you guys don't really understand antyhing because you have no experience of real life because you haven't lived long enough... But I don't, because that's not a valid comment either.

Oh, undoubtedly you are much more wise about a great many things. Let there be no doubts. But if you don't yet fully understand the importance of love and compassion, then you still have much to learn, young one.

quote: If you want to score big, sometimes you have to take some risks

Oh, don't worry. I agree completely, life is full of risks. So I ask you this, give some of what you don't need to the poor, and join me.
Do this and I guarantee that you will score big, you will gain more than any of your stock investments have ever gotten you. It's true that the risk is great, I could be just some loon on the internet after all. But as you say, life is full of risks.

	29-07-2003 09:06									#127
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Yeah... ads are designed to get people to buy your product. No argument there.

However, study after study shows that people won't buy what they don't already want. We want them to buy our brand... not somebody elses...

So blame the fast food industry all you want for crappy food...

But if you want to blame ad agencies for misbehaving kids... it kind of sums up how weak most of your arguments are...

	29-07-2003 09:10									#128
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider So I ask you this, give some of what you don't need to the poor, and join me.

I've done that for a long time... and on top of money, I gave something even more valuable to them... my time.

More people should do that... whether they are conservatives, liberals, socialists, libertarians... everybody

And people shouldn't normally assume that only they or people like them do such things

	29-07-2003 09:12									#129
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quote: However, study after study shows that people won't buy what they don't already want. We want them to buy our brand... not somebody elses...

Yup, I have the money to buy a car, but I don't. Why not even after seeing all those car ads? BECAUSE I DON'T NEED A NEW CAR! I'll bet there are very few people who will see an ad and go out and buy the product even when they don't need it. Advertisers try to convince people who are already looking for a product to buy theirs...

	29-07-2003 09:13									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I've done that for a long time... and on top of money, I gave something even more valuable to them... my time. More people should do that... whether they are conservatives, liberals, socialists, libertarians... everybody And people shouldn't normally assume that only they or people like them do such things

Good, good, good. These risks will provide your greatest pay-off. I guarantee you.

	29-07-2003 09:18									#131
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Alright the commies have converted me. The system is evil and I can never, ever, in a million years do a single thing to ever improve my condition so I will now stop going to work and just sit around waiting for the government to provide for me. Deep down I know that doing this will make the world a better place and I will be a happier person.

Then again...

	29-07-2003 09:21									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Alright the commies have converted me. The system is evil and I can never, ever, in a million years do a single thing to ever improve my condition so I will now stop going to work and just sit around waiting for the government to provide for me. Deep down I know that doing this will make the world a better place and I will be a happier person. Then again...

Who needs government to make the world a better place? Communism starts with the individual.
Plus you will never make any changes just sitting around, so take a risk, and join us. As I promised Ming, the payoff is much better than any stock-portfolio will gain you.

Oh, and it's quite possible for "the system" to improve your condition, but that doesn't mean it's the best system possible though.

	29-07-2003 09:38									#133
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"Next time you see a rude kid in public, blame the real problem. THEIR PARENTS for not raising them right.

But that's pretty typical of people like Templar, find somebody else to blame..."

Ming, aren't you just offering up an alternative scapegoat? What if the child is an orphan? I thought you libertarians were all about placing responsibility on the individual...

	29-07-2003 09:42									#134
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Ming:

quote: Next time you see a rude kid in public, blame the real problem. THEIR PARENTS for not raising them right.

you've gone right back to my point... good parents are a rarity now and we need to restore the family if we're going to have children grow up with the drive to succeed and not stay on their asses.


monkspider:

i'm not sure you should be calling yourself a socialist or communist no more... sounds like you're just a christian. if you realized the practicality of capitalism and could merge it with your apparently religious-based concern for your fellow man then you would be a populistic republican. stop fooling around with the dead marxist cause...

	29-07-2003 09:42									#135
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 What if the child is an orphan?

You should have read Templars example closer...

quote: Moreover advertizers are deliberately trying to provoke kids to nag and act rude towards their parents

The kids we are talking about aren't orphans

	29-07-2003 10:02									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer monkspider: i'm not sure you should be calling yourself a socialist or communist no more... sounds like you're just a christian. if you realized the practicality of capitalism and could merge it with your apparently religious-based concern for your fellow man then you would be a populistic republican. stop fooling around with the dead marxist cause...

Well, I'm not a christian in the traditional sense. I'm an advocate of Jesus' teachings, and I was raised a Christian so I identify a bit more with christianity than other religions, although I like Buddhism quite a bit too. I believe that Jesus' role was to set a pattern, a paradigm, more than it was to serve as a sacraficial lamb for the world's sins. I'm really just simple man trying to do his part in making the world a better place.

So, am I really a communist or socialist? I like to think so, in that humanity's goal of living for the betterment of all was first crystallized in these styles of philosophies. I'm not really a Marxist though. Communism is merely a means to an end really. A means to acheive humanity's ultimate ascendence toward transcendence, to borrow a line from SMAC. I'm more of a libertarian/anarchist communist, who doesn't see government as any sort of a prequisite for a more enlightened society. So that is what may have confused you on my intentions, Alb.

So you can see why this more evolved society would naturally not require capitalism. In fact, capitalism goes against it's very nature. Obviously, in a society where mankind has realized what is truly important, greed and competetion would disappear (and therefore, capitalism).

So I hope that clarifies my position a bit, Alb.

	29-07-2003 10:16									#137
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quote: I believe that Jesus' role was to set a pattern, a paradigm, more than it was to serve as a sacraficial lamb for the world's sins.

from my experiences, most christians (except for those handing out pamphlets) would be more likely to agree with the former rather than the latter... jesus was supposed to be the model of good living (what would jesus do?). i dont see how your take on that seperates you from the majority of christians.

quote: So you can see why this more evolved society would naturally not require capitalism. In fact, capitalism goes against it's very nature. Obviously, in a society where mankind has realized what is truly important, greed and competetion would disappear (and therefore, capitalism).

i completely disagree... capitalism has proved that it is the most practical in advancing a country's economy, industry, and technology and overall, even with our present day imperfect man, still gives an alright life for even the most lowly worker.

now if you can get the modern imperfect man to embrace religious teachings and have greater concern for his fellow man then imagine what greatness the practical benefits of capitalism can achieve combined with a people who seek to help each other and the rest of humanity.

leftists always got this twisted idea in their heads that anyone who supports capitalism is just greedy and wants to be rich. i disagree... like you said yourself, it can be very rewarding to give some of your paycheck to help others. my attitude is work hard and make your money so you can spend it on a better life for yourself but also, from the compassion of your heart, give some to help others. from my experiences, there are many, many people who give away their meager paychecks to others because it is the moral thing to do to help others.

this good will in no way contradicts capitalism. you will still work to improve your life and have luxuries but one of the highest luxeries is the joy of helping others.

my bad for rambling a bit but damn... if i had your (or other leftists') perceptions of capitalism, i'd hate it too but capitalism is not all about greed. it is the most practical system where you can make money to spend on others.

	29-07-2003 10:19									#138
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and that is why i respect the Republican party and i will register as a republican... it is a merger of capitalism and moral concern. capitalism to generate wealth and moral concern to help the less fortunate with this wealth.

	29-07-2003 10:26									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer from my experiences, most christians (except for those handing out pamphlets) would be more likely to agree with the former rather than the latter... jesus was supposed to be the model of good living (what would jesus do?). i dont see how your take on that seperates you from the majority of christians.

Oh, really? Well I was raised a baptist, which is one of the more fundamentalist branches of christianity. So I guess it always just seemed like I was nearly alone in my beliefs.

quote: i completely disagree... capitalism has proved that it is the most practical in advancing a country's economy, industry, and technology and overall, even with our present day imperfect man, still gives an alright life for even the most lowly worker. now if you can get the modern imperfect man to embrace religious teachings and have greater concern for his fellow man then imagine what greatness the practical benefits of capitalism can achieve combined with a people who seek to help each other and the rest of humanity. leftists always got this twisted idea in their heads that anyone who supports capitalism is just greedy and wants to be rich. i disagree... like you said yourself, it can be very rewarding to give some of your paycheck to help others. my attitude is work hard and make your money so you can spend it on a better life for yourself but also, from the compassion of your heart, give some to help others. from my experiences, there are many, many people who give away their meager paychecks to others because it is the moral thing to do to help others. this good will in no way contradicts capitalism. you will still work to improve your life and have luxuries but one of the highest luxeries is the joy of helping others. my bad for rambling a bit but damn... if i had your (or other leftists') perceptions of capitalism, i'd hate it too but capitalism is not all about greed. it is the most practical system where you can make money to spend on others.

I understand what you're saying Alb, and it makes a lot of sense. I don't think capitalism has to be exclusively about greed, as you said it can be used for good purposes. And don't get me wrong, capitalism isn't a completely flawed system. There can be some good to come out of it, as you said, most people in capitalist nations have decent living standards, compared to say, third world nations.

The thing is, capitalism would just disappear in a more enlightened society. There wouldn't be some violent proletariot revolution or anything like that, quite the opposite. It would just quietly vanish. Without greed, and competition, and so forth, it just wouldn't be capitalism anymore. It's not that capitalism has to be only about those things, it's just that it wouldn't work without them. It's a bit hard to visualize, I know. Capitalism is practical just as you say, but it's just that it's not the best thing that humanity can achieve.

	29-07-2003 10:27									#140
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Political parties... moral concerns...

Oh please...

	29-07-2003 10:45									#141
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Monk:

quote: Oh, really? Well I was raised a baptist, which is one of the more fundamentalist branches of christianity. So I guess it always just seemed like I was nearly alone in my beliefs.

baptists too... again, what would jesus do? is a basic question/tenet of christianity, especially protestantism. why are you supposed to study scripture? so you can learn how to live a life as Jesus proscribed and go to heaven. i'm not seeing how fundamentalists would have a problem with the WWJD view... it's in the gospel and is what all churchs have been teaching for centuries.

as for the rest... i think you're living a pipe dream, especially by associating it with the defunct ideas of marx... there's nothing truly anti-capitalist about what you're saying... your ideas are only human and i'm sure are the goals of most of humanity whether religious or athiests, conservative or liberal. the only difference is that people have superficially different ideas of how to achieve this same basic goal... capitalism has worked better than communism in the past so i'm siding with the winning team on this one.

	29-07-2003 10:48									#142
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Ming:

quote: Political parties... moral concerns... Oh please...

i dont believe the republican party has been hi-jacked by greedy robber barons and Enron executives... it is still the party of religious people from the extreme of the Christian Coalition to more moderate religious people. these people are morally concerned and by usually placing their votes for the republican party have made the republican party morally concerned.

	29-07-2003 10:59									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer these people are morally concerned and by usually placing their votes for the republican party have made the republican party morally concerned.

Suckers...



NOTHING can make a political party morally concerned.

We are talking politics, not morality. They don't have anything to do with each other

	29-07-2003 11:04									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Alright the commies have converted me. The system is evil and I can never, ever, in a million years do a single thing to ever improve my condition so I will now stop going to work and just sit around waiting for the government to provide for me. Deep down I know that doing this will make the world a better place and I will be a happier person. Then again...

Just make a baby and do that now.

	29-07-2003 11:07									#145
	Suffering from ads?

Ming... hush... not in front of the potential converts

ixnay on the uption corray

	29-07-2003 11:15									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i dont believe the republican party has been hi-jacked by greedy robber barons and Enron executives... it is still the party of religious people from the extreme of the Christian Coalition to more moderate religious people. these people are morally concerned and by usually placing their votes for the republican party have made the republican party morally concerned.

Sorry, but religion has no place in government. I beilive morality is a relative term. it is what an individual believes in right or wrong. I don't believe in an absolute morality. My philosophical beiliefs are similar to monkspider's; that we should seach for enlightenment, in that people should work for the benifit of other people and the natural world, not in sucking up to some made-up deity to make them feel better. In a more enlightened world there would be no need for government because thre would be no greed, hate, or crime. Everybody would be fed, and happy, and everybody would lead a fulfiled life. Finally, I belive science and technology is inportant in achiving a utopia.

	29-07-2003 11:23									#147
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fine... let's just ignore all the good that religious based organizations have done... yeah that thing called Christian Children's Fund sure is athiest... so is Catholic Youth Foundation... hell all of these are athiest groups...

quote: Adopt-A-Church International - brings together churches in the US willing to give spiritual and financial support to churches in Eastern Europe. Association Evangelique Des Demunis - helping needy people in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Ethiopia, and other areas. Bread for the World - citizens' movement seeking justice for the world's hungry people by lobbying our nation's decision makers. Bright Hope International - working through local churches in 42 countries to provide food, jobs and aid to the needy. Cedar Fund - a charity supported and staffed by HK Christians which works in 13 countries in Africa, Asia and eastern Europe. Christian Appalachian Project - volunteer inter-denominational service helping people in the Appalachians. Christian Caring - charity seeking contributions to support Christian missionaries in Beirut, Lebanon. Christian Embassy of Christ's Ambassadors, The - supports and encourages both national and international aide projects. Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (CRWRC) - relief, development, and educational ministry supported by the Christian Reformed Church in North America. Christian Relief Services - charitable organization providing humanitarian relief in the United States and around the world. Church Action on Poverty - national charity seeking to eradicate poverty in the U.K. Publishes educational materials, undertakes research, and runs events across the country. Church Urban Fund - a charity making grants to Church linked projects in England's urban priority areas. Church World Service (2) Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization - offers information about tropical agriculture, seeds, and training to missionaries, and development workers worldwide. Faith in Practice - a community of volunteers who work to improve the physical, spiritual and economic conditions of the poor in Central America. Fellowship of Associates of Medical Evangelism [FAME] - dedicated to bringing medical help and hope to least reached people in underdeveloped nations. Food for the Hungry International (FHI) - global Christian organization providing resources and humanitarian assistance to improve the lives of children and their families. Global Hope - extending a vision of faith through hands-on Christian love in Romania. Global Outreach - nonprofit foundation dedicated to helping people of developing countries to help themselves. Good News Family Care - seeking a return to traditional family values and offerering support, counselling, and temporary accommodation to families in distress. Heal the Nations - Christian nonprofit organization dedicated to facilitating community health development for needy people in remote areas of the world. Helps International - nonprofit, non-denominational Christian organization providing assistance with medical care, education, housing, agriculture and economic development in rural Guatemala. His Kids, Too - Christian nonprofit international humanitarian aide organization providing aide to orphans and widows in several countries, including Ukraine, Russia, and Albania. Honduras Outreach - ecumenical Christian ministry partnership to improve quality life in Agalta Valley, Honduras. Hope Connections - making donations to the homeless and poor in the Oakland, Hayward, and Union City areas. Hope Now - helps people worldwide through prayer and donations. India Partners - nonprofit organization that works with charities in India. International Orthodox Christian Charities - coordinating international relief. Jericho Road, Inc. - contacting nonprofit, social service organizations regarding volunteer opportunities. Kingdom Ventures - philanthropic venture capital organization supporting emerging Christian ministries. Kingscare - meeting practical needs with the love of God in developing countries through self help, medical, educational and training projects. Maranatha Volunteers International - constructs churches, schools, orphanages, clinics, housing and other structures in areas of great need around the world. Marine Reach International - interdenominational Christian organization providing medical care and facilities via ship, truck, and other means. MEDAIR - Christian relief and aid organisation. Mercy Ships - humanitarian organization committed to a three-fold purpose of mercy and relief, training, and ministry. Mission Noah - dedicated to humanitarian aid throughout the world. National Benevolent Association - provide social and health services to meet physical, emotional, mental and spiritual needs. New Life Counselors, Inc. - grows and sells trees and shrubs to raise funds for Christian missions and for the training of Christian missionaries. Operation Blessing International (2) Operation Warmup - clothing ministry serving needy families in Appalachia. High school students serve as Christian ambassadors taking warmth and Christ's love to the needy. Pura Vida Coffee - sells hand-roasted, gourmet coffees in a variety of blends and flavors. All net proceeds benefit at-risk children in coffee-growing regions of the world. Also provides information about the ministry. Rivers of the World - exploration and development group targeting the world's most remote rivers. Projects focus on health, education, agriculture, microeconomic development, and evangelism. Romanian Aid Foundation, The - provides help to the needy and offers hope through the Christian message in the Botosani region of the northeast. Salvation Army (30) Samaritan's Purse (2) Siloam Christian Ministeries - assists national co-workers, churches, and independent workers in the "Two Thirds World". Society of St. Vincent de Paul@ Stamps for Christian Missions (SFCM) - collects used postage stamps to raise money for Christian missions. Tearfund - evangelical Christian relief and development charity working in partnership to bring help and hope to communities in need around the world. THOMAS - created to build a bridge of dialogue between the church and people who are on the fringes of society; includes EDGES Magazine. World Care Ministry - international, interdenominational Christian evangelical relief ministry. World Concern - relief and development organization helping poor and oppressed families become self-reliant through food, jobs, health care and education. World Hope International - Christian relief seeking to bring lasting hope through self sufficiency to the poorest people on earth. World Relief - Christian nonprofit provides humanitarian aid, disaster, and emergency relief. Involved in community and economic development, welfare reform, refugee resettlement, and immigration. World Vision International

and don't forget these...

quote: Action International Ministries All Nations Bible Society Angel Flight Samaritans Baptist Children's Home Ministries Bethany Christian Services Bible Believers Fellowship, Inc. Bright Hope International Casas por Cristo Catholic Youth Foundation USA Children's Emergency Relief Teams Children's Hunger Fund Foundation Christian Charities USA Christian Children Education Fund Christian Freedom International Christian Medical & Dental Associations Christian Orthopaedic Partners Christian World Relief Commission To Every Nation Faith in the Family International Family Care Foundation Filipino American Rural Mission Giving Children Hope Great Dads Habitat for Humanity International India Partners Interchurch Medical Assistance Lost and Found Medical Ministry International Mission Safety International, Inc. Mission to Children Missionary Care Services International New Horizons Ministries New Ways Ministry Northwest Medical Teams International Open Doors with Brother Andrew, Inc. Outreach International Presbyterian Council for Chaplains and Military Personnel ROX35 Media, Inc. Scripture Union Sports Outreach Institute Suicide Prevention Care Fund United Marriage Encounter United States Catholic Mission Association World Evangelical Alliance World Impact World Orphans Youth for Christ/USA

	29-07-2003 11:28									#148
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Religion is not necessarily pro-capitalism. To me communism isn't anti-religion either.

	29-07-2003 11:30									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Religion is not necessarily pro-capitalism. To me communism isn't anti-religion either.

If a person followed Christ he/she would be a communist.

	29-07-2003 11:31									#150
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Liberation theology ain't too bad.