29-07-2003 11:32									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Odin If a person followed Christ he/she would be a communist.

The thing is that when these religions were created communism was not an ideology yet.

	29-07-2003 11:40									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious To me communism isn't anti-religion either.

Then you my friend don't have the first clue about what a good communist is supposed to believe. Shouldn't you know the tenents of your professed ideology before you sign up?

	29-07-2003 11:45									#153
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quote: If a person followed Christ he/she would be a communist.

what happened to that evil religion?

and no Jesus would never have approved of any communist state in the 20th century

	29-07-2003 14:31									#154
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Velocyrix:

quote: Wanna know how to succeed economically? How to better yourself financially? Follow these steps: 1) Spend less than you earn

Even if all your money disappears in rent for your appartment and food? What do you suggest? That people sleep in the gutters and stop eating in order to get up?

Ming:

quote: Yes, you can lose your shirt starting a business, and you can also succeed beyond your wildest dreams... it's a risk. It's a matter of CHOICE... and that was the point being made. He was claiming they didn't have a choice... yet there was a choice, just one they aren't willing to risk or take.

Ok, so everyone has a choice. But do you deny that people starting high on the social ladder have a higher chance that their choices will lead to succes instead of failure? Being a meritocrat, I find it "unfair" a more talented but poorer born person will end up lower than a less talented but richer born person.

	29-07-2003 14:57									#155
	Put an end to popups!

quote: If a person followed Christ he/she would be a communist.

Most communists deny the existence of a spiritual realm, so that's one big conflict.

Another would be this slight problem of Jesus being the Son of God. That's the only part that Albert and monkspider seem to miss.

There have been a great number of moral teachers, but Jesus did not claim to be a good moral teacher, but to be God. This is the only reason to follow him because he justified his claims through the resurrection.

Indeed, Albert, you are right that Christians are supposed to emulate Christ, but I'm not sure you fully understand why.

Ming


So why then do you vote republican?

	29-07-2003 18:03									#156
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Maniac: If all your money is disappearing in rent and food, the problem is obvious.

All of my money would disappear in rent and food too, if I insisted in living in a place that cost me $2500 a month, and ate like a King every day. If your rent/food is costing you more than you make, then the solution is three-fold:

a) make more (either take on a part time job in addition to, or a better paying full time job)

b) join economic forces with someone (a wife, a room mate, live-in girl friend, something)

c) find ways of cutting your expenses (don't live in a $1200 a month apartment, stop eating out four nights a week, stop burning money up by smoking, etc)

Collectively these three things WILL, not can, but WILL re-draw your financial landscape. You are making it out that if you find yourself in the situation you outlined above, then you simply have no choice but to continue being IN that situation. Absolutely untrue.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 19:22									#157
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Ming, Ming, Ming. Advertising is all about creating a desire for a product - i.e. selling crap you don't need. Take Fast Food or beverage advertising. WHen is the last time you saw a Micky D's commercial that concentrated on the health benefits or high quality of Micky D's food? You don't. You usually see friggin' clowns, or you see parents or grandparents connecting with their kids over a McFatty sandwich and teeth-rotting soft drink. Micky D's doesn't sell its food in its advertising, it sells a lifestyle image.

Likewise, the malt beverage Skyy Vodka produces advertises with scantily clad beautiful people lounging on a boat. WHat does this have to do with a lame citrus drink? Nothing! Rather, it is an attempt to associate a beverage with other things (good looks and money) that confer status in our society.

So tell me another one.

Berz, of course libertarians would have us believe that commercials perform merely in the role of providing information about what products are available. And to an extent, they do this. But if libertarians would adopt a more contemporary theory of the mind than the mind as some sort of completely free-willed Cartesian thing, libertarians would be better off.

Obiwan, where in the Bible does Jesus claim to be the son of God/ God Itself? Give me a Jesus quote, none of that Paul crap.

	29-07-2003 19:36									#158
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As a form of brainwashing, Templar, advertising does a very, very poor job, but that's what you're implying, right?

We poor, downtrodden sods just don't know any better than to believe that all we need to do is take our kids to Micky D's and we'll have a happy homelife, right?

All we need to do is buy that spiffy citrus drink and we'll be good looking and affluent.

Show me the person who believes this tripe! The hypothetical person you mention would have to be impossibly weak minded and weak willed to ever buy into that. IF such a person exists at all, I can assure you they're not the majority....not even close. I've never once met anyone like that, and having travelled through the better part of the USA, you'd think I would have run across at least one, if what you are saying has any merit or basis in reality.

Haven't found 'em yet tho.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 19:58									#159
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As a form of brainwashing, Templar, advertising does a very, very poor job, but that's what you're implying, right?

"Brainwashing" is your word, not mine. Think of it as more of a powerful nudge. You want to do something nice for your kids - the advertisement associated Micky D's with this activity. So now you have Micky D's in your mind. You are more likely to go there now.

quote: We poor, downtrodden sods just don't know any better than to believe that all we need to do is take our kids to Micky D's and we'll have a happy homelife, right? All we need to do is buy that spiffy citrus drink and we'll be good looking and affluent.

This works on a subconscious level. If we reflect on it, yes, it seems silly. But the goal is to nudge by tying certain products and brands to unrelated things. So you want to get some drinks, you see Skyy malt on the shelf. You now have a nudge, under the threshold of consciousness that Skyy=status. Now if you don't drink, this won't affect you. If you love Sam Adams, this won't really affect you (unless you are in the mood to try something new).

Toddlers and other kids are not as reflective as mature adults, nor have they developed their tastes and value preferences yet. So the nudges work all that much better.

In your travels, have you ever met anyone who seriously believes Bud tastes better than Sam? Probably not. Yet Bud is the best selling beer in the nation. So something other than taste is pushing sales.

Are you arguing that emotion and subconscious influence does nothing to shape our tastes and value preferences? Just where do you think value preference comes from? Do you really think we rationalize our optimal value preferences and develop them through pure reason? "optimal value preference' itself is a value-laiden concept given that 'optimal' denotates an value judgement. This sort of Cartesian thinking died among serious people in the early 20th century.

But this discussion would better be served in a separate thread about the nature, limits, and meaning of free will (or even a thread about the nature of the mind).

	29-07-2003 20:08									#160
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Nope....just pointing out that there's no proof that I have ever seen that advertisement works on a subconscious level to "nudge" (brainwash) as you describe. Believe me, advertisers would be chomping at the bit if it did, but having studied advertising extensively in school, having seen the results of the "subliminal suggestion" idea, the data is just not there to support what you're saying.

Marketing DOES have an impact, sure. Undeniably, and that's one of the reasons we're all (well, most of us) are using Wintel machines today, rather than Apples.

But marketing is not the only, nor even the major, component of selling. Availability. Using your beer example, Bud has more shelf space than Sam Adams. Bud is more widely seen in the grocery store. Bud is cheaper, and probably has higher gross production. Thus, Bud is purchased more often. None of these things has anything to do with some subconscious nudge.....rather, it has to do with the fact that people in this country like beer, and Bud is readily available.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 20:28									#161
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The Templar is just proving again how little he knows about the effects and objectives of advertising.
But then again, he seems to know ALL ABOUT it even though the closest he comes to any experience is a few of friends... Like most things I guess, he just repeats stuff that fits his limited agenda...

If advertising could sell people things they don't want, things would really be different. Advertising helps make people make decisions betweens brands... and inform them of products that they might need but were unaware of... but that's about it.

MD's commercial may get somebody to choose them over BK or Wendys... but it won't make somebody who hates crappy food to go there.

Yeah... there are probably a few stupid people who might end up buying something they didn't want, but that's not the norm, and never a serious objective for an ad campaign. Weak minds like that are usually targeted only by people with outdated political agendas, or wacko religious cults

	29-07-2003 20:53									#162
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I think the problem with most people is that they won't or don't play the 'game' that they are in. They would rather debate the 'rules' than figure out how to make the 'rules' work for them.

As in money. The reason a lot of people don't have money is because they don't really know what it is... A lot of people couldn't even define a yeild or it's relation to a P/E... It's this kind of ignorance to the rules that gets people smashed. Granted, they don't need to play the stock market, but they need to pick a 'game' and play it. Learn the language, learn the loop-holes, learn the discipline. Demanding the 'rules' to change is worthless, especially when the greater 'game' requires money in order to change the 'rules'...

Perhaps if schools taught kids about money, and not just economics (which is worthless, IMO, when it comes to personal finance), the world would be different, I don't know... At least it might teach fiscal discipline, and prevent a lot of problems families have concerning money...

Money IS the root of all evil, yet it is also the deliver from it.

	29-07-2003 21:07									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The Templar is just proving again how little he knows about the effects and objectives of advertising. But then again, he seems to know ALL ABOUT it even though the closest he comes to any experience is a few of friends... Like most things I guess, he just repeats stuff that fits his limited agenda...

You're 0-2 on the ad hominem Ming. I don't know alot about advertising, but I do know quite a bit about evolutionary psychology and cognitive science (cog sci was an important area of my dissertation work, and give a month or so to prepare, I could probably teach a grad level seminar on the subject). Yes, what I know about psychology in the ad business comes from a "few friends". A few friends who do psychological research in the ad business.

What was your degree in again, Ming?

quote: If advertising could sell people things they don't want, things would really be different. Advertising helps make people make decisions betweens brands... and inform them of products that they might need but were unaware of... but that's about it.

Much of this decision-making process you refer to is sub-reflective. Yes advertising serves an informative function. But, the primary goal is preference formation. When is the last time you saw a "tombstone" ad that just anounced the introduction of a new product in blacktext on a white background? (And even if you did, the subtext would be "see our product is so good, no need for advertising".)

Oh, and reread my last post. It is impossible to seel people things they don't want - so the goal is to create the desire and nudge them towards your brand.

Vel

I'm not talking about cheesy subliminal tracks hidden in the audio. I'm talking about the association of products with impulses and needs (like status and sex) that are biologically rooted. Before we discuss this further answer the following questions:

(1) Do you believe that people have the free will to do whatever they would like in a situation?

(2) Do you believe that reason functions without respect to pre-existing second order value preferences?

(3) Do you doubt that second order value preferences are developed in a non-rational process?

(4) Do you believe that the mind is a unified whole?

(5) Do you believe consciousness or "the will" has each of these processes under its control?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then we simply have nothing to talk about because we do not share enough intellectual space to engage each other. I.e. you are living in the 15th century and I am not.

	29-07-2003 21:10									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and no Jesus would never have approved of any communist state in the 20th century

He certainly wouldn't have approved of any capitalist state.

	29-07-2003 21:13									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Then you my friend don't have the first clue about what a good communist is supposed to believe. Shouldn't you know the tenents of your professed ideology before you sign up?

Now you decide what a 'good' communist is? I can decide that for myself.

	29-07-2003 21:18									#166
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Templar: Yes to the first question, no to the rest, with the inability to answer question five. Yes, it is possible. Is it the norm? Couldn't tell you. And it's interesting that you claim to be living in the here and now, yet stand in support of an outdated political ideology? Doesn't sound very 21st century to me, but okay....

And with regard to associating product with biologically rooted needs, I would say....so? If you honestly believe that we are so bound to those biological needs that they can be used as triggers by any passing external stimuli (including ad work), then I feel that you misunderstand the nature *of* those biological needs and desires. What you are describing is a vast oversimplification of control over those biologically rooted needs and desires, and if advertising worked that way, then it would be a much more insidious, effective tool at outright *brainwashing* than even you are implying.

That we are not drooling all over ourselves, or off to pop some buxom beauty on her pretty little head and drag her by the hair back to the modern-day cave to have sex with her while guzzling a Bud shortly after viewing the latest commercial hits the tube sugessts (and quite strongly, at that) that it doesn't work as you imply.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 21:23									#167
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Ok, so everyone has a choice. But do you deny that people starting high on the social ladder have a higher chance that their choices will lead to succes instead of failure? Being a meritocrat, I find it "unfair" a more talented but poorer born person will end up lower than a less talented but richer born person.

Now this is the real problem with capitalism in a nutshell. The goal of the free market is to foster competion so that people can make money by meeting the needs of other people (or by creating desires and then fulfilling them - but enough about advertising).

The dogma is that the best and brightest will rise to the top in capitalism and that innovation will flourish. But note that these, the most desireable effects of capitalism, are at best side effects that are suppossed to occur. If we really belive in innovation and the best and brightest rising to the top, why not build a system that has these as specific goals instead of hoping that the market accomplishes these things tangentally?

	29-07-2003 21:28									#168
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Templar your an odd one.

I never saw a master plan for capitalism that said that they best and brightest would rise to the top.

Also, at least in Capitalism the needs and demands (which, by the way, are not one in the same) are actually met... Unlike in real world Communism...

	29-07-2003 21:35									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Templar: Yes to the first question,

Then you have never:

(1) In high school, been so nervous about asking a girl out that despite every desire to do so you just couldn't force yourself.

(2) Been so pissed off that you punch someone in the face without realizing what you are doing when you threw the punch.

(3) Rejected an ex-girlfirend who broke up with you and then wanted to get back together even though everything inside you wanted to take her back but your pride got in the way?

(4) Paralyzed with fear - the deer in the headlights thing.

I envy you.

	29-07-2003 21:40									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think the problem with most people is that they won't or don't play the 'game' that they are in. They would rather debate the 'rules' than figure out how to make the 'rules' work for them.

I couldn't agree with you more Japher. You hit the nail on the head.

quote: As in money. The reason a lot of people don't have money is because they don't really know what it is... A lot of people couldn't even define a yeild or it's relation to a P/E...

I can define a yield and I know it's relation to the P/E.

quote: It's this kind of ignorance to the rules that gets people smashed. .

That's the unfortunate truth my friend and many people think that if they just ignore it long enough it will go away. They they wonder why they aren't going to Aruba like so and so on TV.

	29-07-2003 21:43									#171
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Nope. I have never to any of the statements you outlined. I want to ask a girl out....I ask her out? What's she gonna do? Say no? Claw my eyes out? So why get worked up about it?

As to anger, I have been truly *angry* (enraged) all of three times in my whole life, and in those moments, I was perhaps more in control of myself, and felt a greater clarity of thought than at many (if any) other points in my life. In short, I knew exactly what I was doing.

Fear is a controlled response. I used to be scared of the dark. I'm not any more. I used to be scared of the water. That changed. Why? Because I MADE it change. I chose, using my spiffy lil' ol' free will to simply not be afraid anymore.

Pride getting in the way? Choice....pure and simple. A relationship over some nebulous sense of "personal pride."

Paralyzed with fear? Nope. Surprised on occassion by an unexpected event? Yep....but the moment the initial surprise wore off (a matter of seconds usually, and often less), the brain kicks into high gear and begins shouting orders to the body.

Nothing to envy about it. Anyone can make that happen.

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 21:45									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Also, at least in Capitalism the needs and demands (which, by the way, are not one in the same) are actually met... Unlike in real world Communism...

Nonsense.

	29-07-2003 21:46									#173
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Many people complains that an average person in a wealthy family has more opportunities that a brilliant person in a poor family.

If this was true all the top positions in the society would be held by heirs.

the 11 richest persons in the US are :

1. Gates, William H III
2. Buffett, Warren Edward
3. Allen, Paul Gardner
4. Walton, Helen R
5. Walton, S Robson
6. Walton, John T
7. Walton, Jim C
8. Walton, Alice L
9. Ellison, Lawrence Joseph
10. Ballmer, Steven Anthony
11. Michael Dell

All these fortunes were build after WWII by people whose parent were not billionnaires. If this is true for the very top, can it be wrong below?

But we have to accept that opportunity does not mean success.

	29-07-2003 21:49									#174
	Put an end to popups!

Here's the part where they tell you that those are exceptionally rare individuals, and because you're not talking about the "whole group" the list you provided is absolutely invalid.....betcha money....*sigh*

-=Vel=-

(EXCELLENT point, by the way! )

	29-07-2003 21:50									#175
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT But we have to accept that opportunity does not mean success.

If opportunity doesn't mean success what good is it?

	29-07-2003 21:50									#176
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But Oerdin, we have decided to 'play the game' instead of trying double jump a rook and knight to king our bishop...

While we have learned how to identify and interpret market indicators we would be hard pressed to apply these to the real estate market, say. We will have to learn what a debt/equity ratio is or debt/earnings ration is, what the differences between mortgages are, how to write a perspective or offer, how to make buisness contacts, etc... Things we don't need to know to play on the stock market, it is a completely different world...

This, all just in the investment world?! There is so much to learn so much fun to be had in the 'games' already set before us, that if one would just play it, win or lose, you would be a lot better off than you are now.

"I don't want to play Capitalism I want to play Communism," people whine. I say they are lazy, mainly because the only thing you have to do in 'Communism' is decide if you want to be the thimble or the race car, then sit back as you run the predetermined course set to you by the guy in the top hat. I would rather play 'Capitalism' because at least I get to role the dice...



Also, Templar, Free Will does exist, it is just much easier to give in to others influences...

quote: If we really belive in innovation and the best and brightest rising to the top, why not build a system that has these as specific goals instead of hoping that the market accomplishes these things tangentally?

Care to give an example of such a system?

	29-07-2003 21:51									#177
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Now you decide what a 'good' communist is? I can decide that for myself.

I decide? Nope. Marx, Engles, Mao, Lenin, and Stalin have already decided what a good communist is and a good commie doesn't buy into religion. It is "the opium of the masses" remember? A foul lie used by the aristocracy to oppress the proletariat.

Of course if you actually bothered to read any major communist manifesto then you'd know this. If you don’t believe me as Chegitz or any of the former Soviet posters here at poly who are old enough to remember Soviet school doctrine.

You really need to pick up a copy of the little red book.

	29-07-2003 21:53									#178
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Kid....I started to laugh when I read your reply, but then it occurred to me that it was asked in seriousness, so I will give you a serious answer.

Opportunity does not....does not equal success.

Opportunity is....exactly that....the chance of success.

In order to turn an opportunity INTO a success, requires personal effort.

Until then, it is simply an unrealized ambition. A desire.

That would be like saying: If dreams do not equal reality, then what good are they?

-=Vel=-

	29-07-2003 21:55									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I decide? Nope. Marx, Engles, Mao, Lenin, and Stalin have already decided what a good communist is and a good commie doesn't buy into religion. It is "the opium of the masses" remember? A foul lie used by the aristocracy to oppress the proletariat.

All of these people disagreed on different points. Communists do that as well you know.

	29-07-2003 21:56									#180
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I wouldn't even think of laughing at Kid's question, I think it is a very good question.

quote: If opportunity doesn't mean success what good is it?

It means you get to play the game. You get to try and do what ever it is you want to do, and not have to follow some predetermined path set to you by your forefathers or your government, or even your education.

Opportunity has made the world of difference in this country, not only because of those who have succeed, but because of those who have failed, learned from it, and tried again.

Success is being able to get up one more time than you have fallen...