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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:30
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It's taken a long time for me to come to appreciate Thorne's value in the AB's. Obviously he had the players respect as they all plumped for him firstly to be named and then continue as captain, even when people up and down NZ were calling for the axe to fall during less favourable times.
As a sometime-flank myself, I can appreciate Thorne's value in a team full of superstars. An unashamed work-horse, Thorne is the kind of flanker buried deep amid the ruck and mauls while often his openside will be getting all the kudos for thundering hits and tireless runs.
Calling the last three lineouts to himself was a ballsy decision that I consider a key to the match. Too often in the past the line outs had been the difference, and this time Thorne decided the buck stopped with himself, as captain. The pill was safely won, no thanks to Dave Hewitt if the rumours he twice dropped the ball are to be believed, and the game was ours.
However, in the kind of atmosphere that a World Cup final generates, more will be required of the All Blacks.
Not to write the Wallabies off (you'd be a fool to), but given the most predictable scenario that we are playing England in the final, with a great pack such that England possess, New Zealand will have to be superb with the ball in hand and make ALL of their points-scoring opportunities count. That means Spencer or whoever is putting across the kicks needs to strike at or about 75%, and we must win 90% or better of our own ball in the lineouts. Neither of those things occurred on Saturday, but having said that it was still an admirable win! 
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:30
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quote:
Rugby player out of RWC after falling off his bike... |
Mmmm... Reminds me of my fly half who needed a bike to break his nose. At least, I did this on the field.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
Not to write the Wallabies off (you'd be a fool to), but given the most predictable scenario that we are playing England in the final, with a great pack such that England possess, New Zealand will have to be superb with the ball in hand and make ALL of their points-scoring opportunities count. That means Spencer or whoever is putting across the kicks needs to strike at or about 75%, and we must win 90% or better of our own ball in the lineouts. Neither of those things occurred on Saturday, but having said that it was still an admirable win! |
I think that's a fair assessment of what lies ahead. Barring extraordinary improvement (or, in England's case, decline), the ABs aren't going to win a battle of the forwards. Methinks the ABs will be calling on all of their S12 experience. 
One factor, though, to bear in mind. The weather. The WRC will start in warm-ish conditions, and, by the time of the final, it should be very warm. Ageing forwards beware.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
It does however contain four 2001 Lions and many of the players who beat Argentina in Argentina last summer and the Maoris earlier this year.
It also contain players back from injury like Lewis Moody and Julian White. It's a very good side and should be ample to see off Wales despite their traditional raising of the game against the English. |
Translation = by definition, an England Second Team.
If Clive had spun it any harder, he'd be text-messaging sheilas.
quote:
I'm still insanely busy at work but there are a few things I want to drop in - I'm very concerned Frozzy has been revealed as a closet s***** fan for example.  |
Yes, well, he also thinks exercise will reduce cholesterol. Deluded chap.
quote:
And I have to say Finbar is right about the Collins situation. It seems traditional now that for Howlett to score a try there has to be illegal play in the build up. It doesn't matter how great a score looks if it came from illegal play (to me anyway). |
But don't, for one moment, think that such blatant sucking up changes the fact that it's a Second XV taking on Wales! 
quote:
Also whilst they coped with a tight game againt the Wallabies very well it shows how teams can beat them - France and England will test them more in a tight game than the front row deficient Wallabies did. |
I think so too. Andydog summed it up pretty well.
quote:
Thats why it was amusing to see the label Superstars appear in the thread talking about the ABs - behind the pack the label fits well - but in the forwards you've got Jack and McCaw certainly - but the rest are nothing to write home about thats for sure (maybe that other young Flanker - Hollah?). |
I also think the hooker is a talent. That aside, I think they're lacking in the front row and engine room.
Oh, and isn't it nice to see the site up and running. Albeit, obviously, briefly.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
True, though he obviously needs to learn how to throw the ball in the lineout.  |
Frankly, throwing into the lineout is becoming a lost art. We don't have a reliable thrower, the ABs don't, the England hooker was erratic out here last time. I caught some of the Ireland -v- Wales match replayed last night and they were all over the place. I don't know about the French because I haven't seem them for a while. You'd think, with lifting allowed these days, it would be a snap.
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IMO the AB will learn the lesson the hard way. Rugby is a game where you have forwards and backs (aka runners), Rugby is not meant to be played with 15 runners. |
True.
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BTW what about your Civ3 experience Finbar? |
Haven't really had time to explore it any further than I did when I got it. It also isn't available in MP form for Mac, as far as I know. None of the Australian Civ players - all PC people - bother with it. They stick to Civ 2.
BTW,. how did you manage to post? The site was still down when I checked it before going to bed last night - about the time you posted! Are you crashing and resurrecting the site at your whim?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
And it is a shame, IMO the lineouts would be far more interesting if the referees would bother about the throws that are not straight. |
Yes, we've talked about that before. The refs seem only to be able to concentrate on one aspect of the game within a match. Sometimes they police the throwing, sometimes not.
quote:
French flair! |
Terrorist!
BTW, Peter Fitzsimons, the ex-Wallaby lock, now a very untalented and self-indulgent journalist, played quite a lot of club rugby in France a few years ago. Not the premier grade, more the smaller, local competition. I heard him talking about a wonderful expression the locals had, something about the players being inspired by the sound of the local church bells ringing. "Something ... la cloche .... " Are you familiar with the expression? What is it exactly?
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:30
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quote:
You'd think, with lifting allowed these days, it would be a snap. |
HAha, you never threw, did you?
Here's a typical half of a hooker match (the other being scrums, which I can't discuss in a single post, and Havak would probably have more to say):
Beginning of the game. After the warm up (one ruck), a back kicks the ball out. Your turn to throw. Your locks suddenly look small, while the opponent locks look like they are giants. Despite your telling your mates a nice thing like "Abnegation 43 27 89", only the first jumper, the one you won't throw the ball to, looks like he's ready to jump. The referee looks nervous, your scrum half is shouting silly things at you the way he usually does.
You throw.
Sh*t! Not straight. There has been a sudden blast of wind. The ball nicely reaches the opponent second jumper, and the referee doesn't think it is worth whistling despite the obviously not straight throw in the bad direction.
You swear heavily and charge the maul immediately, hoping to get the ball back, but not really believing you will. You never do, after all.
Two scrums later.
This time it's one of your own backs who kicked the ball. You stay near the hooker, looking menacingly at the opponent prop who's busy preparing himself to lift a 'quintal' (100kg.) of second row meat. The ball flies. Obviously right into the hand of the said second row. Obviously not straight, but it being in the same direction as the last time, the wind blowing and the fact it doesn't show as much on a short lineout as when you throw far, or maybe because the referee is blind (I mean, he penalized your team when the opponent prop fell and collapsed the scrum last time!), he doesn't whistle. You charge the scrummy as soon as the ball gets out, but the weasel manages to get rid of it before you reach him, and the fly half is already kicking.
Now your turn to throw. The opponent first jumper obviously got the ball only because it wasn't straight. So you try again, "Rugby 79 99 21". Throw. Nice throw in the middle. For less than half of a second, you feel happy with yourself. Then you realise that the opponent jumper managed to jump in front of your own lock, and get the ball.
Sh*t. This one is lost, but only because they've got a better jumper in front. You charge the maul, noting for later that you should throw to the second jumper, because their first lock is too good.
Three scrums later.
Now your pack managed to push a maul out of the field, and apparently the opponent were holding the ball at the time. You throw on the second jumper. The ball flies nicely, the jumper jumps well, but the flanker who's supposed to lift him seems to suffer from a brain fade. When the ball reaches the place where the jumper was one fraction of a second ago, the lock has already fallen down, and the opponent seizes the ball. Damn flankers. Because they have been running along the pitch, they pretend they are exhausted and don't listen to the combination.
One scrum later.
This time, the opponent lock throws obviously not straight into the hands of his second jumper. The referee warns us that next time, he'll whistle.
Two scrums later.
Okay, so this time the referee used the whistle thing. Problem is, it was against you, not the opponent. " I had warned you to throw straight", said he. Nope, he warned them. Looking at the captain, you think it may not be a good idea to tell the ref what you think.
They kicked for a lineout, so they throw. Our second jumper catches the ball in a rare display of coordination between his lifters and him. Unfortunately, the ref whistles again because your first jumper pushed his vis-a-vis and prevented him from jumping. The fact that the ball flew more than one meter above his outstretched arms, and the fact that the opponent first jumper clearly didn't even try lifting his heavy frame from the pitch, doesn't matter.
After a few scrums and a pause in which the teams change sides, you get to throw again. This time, everything works well. The thrower (you) throws straight. The second jumper jumps high, his lifters lift him. Even more surprising, he doesn't get pushed or pulled while in the air, and the forwards manage to create a nice maul. This usually happens once or twice in a good match. You try very hard to remember this experience in order to be able to talk about it while sipping some Bowmore after the match.
The rest of the match is more of the same, except for the last lineout I depicted, which, as I mentioned, only happens once or twice for your side in a match, but much more often for the other side.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by LDiCesare
HAha, you never threw, did you?
Here's a typical half of a hooker match (the other being scrums, which I can't discuss in a single post, and Havak would probably have more to say):
Beginning of the game. After the warm up (one ruck), a back kicks the ball out. Your turn to throw. Your locks suddenly look small, while the opponent locks look like they are giants. Despite your telling your mates a nice thing like "Abnegation 43 27 89", only the first jumper, the one you won't throw the ball to, looks like he's ready to jump. The referee looks nervous, your scrum half is shouting silly things at you the way he usually does.
You throw.
Sh*t! Not straight. There has been a sudden blast of wind. The ball nicely reaches the opponent second jumper, and the referee doesn't think it is worth whistling despite the obviously not straight throw in the bad direction.
You swear heavily and charge the maul immediately, hoping to get the ball back, but not really believing you will. You never do, after all.
Two scrums later.
This time it's one of your own backs who kicked the ball. You stay near the hooker, looking menacingly at the opponent prop who's busy preparing himself to lift a 'quintal' (100kg.) of second row meat. The ball flies. Obviously right into the hand of the said second row. Obviously not straight, but it being in the same direction as the last time, the wind blowing and the fact it doesn't show as much on a short lineout as when you throw far, or maybe because the referee is blind (I mean, he penalized your team when the opponent prop fell and collapsed the scrum last time!), he doesn't whistle. You charge the scrummy as soon as the ball gets out, but the weasel manages to get rid of it before you reach him, and the fly half is already kicking.
Now your turn to throw. The opponent first jumper obviously got the ball only because it wasn't straight. So you try again, "Rugby 79 99 21". Throw. Nice throw in the middle. For less than half of a second, you feel happy with yourself. Then you realise that the opponent jumper managed to jump in front of your own lock, and get the ball.
Sh*t. This one is lost, but only because they've got a better jumper in front. You charge the maul, noting for later that you should throw to the second jumper, because their first lock is too good.
Three scrums later.
Now your pack managed to push a maul out of the field, and apparently the opponent were holding the ball at the time. You throw on the second jumper. The ball flies nicely, the jumper jumps well, but the flanker who's supposed to lift him seems to suffer from a brain fade. When the ball reaches the place where the jumper was one fraction of a second ago, the lock has already fallen down, and the opponent seizes the ball. Damn flankers. Because they have been running along the pitch, they pretend they are exhausted and don't listen to the combination.
One scrum later.
This time, the opponent lock throws obviously not straight into the hands of his second jumper. The referee warns us that next time, he'll whistle.
Two scrums later.
Okay, so this time the referee used the whistle thing. Problem is, it was against you, not the opponent. " I had warned you to throw straight", said he. Nope, he warned them. Looking at the captain, you think it may not be a good idea to tell the ref what you think.
They kicked for a lineout, so they throw. Our second jumper catches the ball in a rare display of coordination between his lifters and him. Unfortunately, the ref whistles again because your first jumper pushed his vis-a-vis and prevented him from jumping. The fact that the ball flew more than one meter above his outstretched arms, and the fact that the opponent first jumper clearly didn't even try lifting his heavy frame from the pitch, doesn't matter.
After a few scrums and a pause in which the teams change sides, you get to throw again. This time, everything works well. The thrower (you) throws straight. The second jumper jumps high, his lifters lift him. Even more surprising, he doesn't get pushed or pulled while in the air, and the forwards manage to create a nice maul. This usually happens once or twice in a good match. You try very hard to remember this experience in order to be able to talk about it while sipping some Bowmore after the match.
The rest of the match is more of the same, except for the last lineout I depicted, which, as I mentioned, only happens once or twice for your side in a match, but much more often for the other side. |
Havak talk about the finer points of scrums? What could he have to say apart from, "Ouch, not the nuts again!".
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:30
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The following is cherry picked from several days worth of posts.
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I suspect Vaughan has to be one of the worst fieldsmen ever to captain a side. |
Well he is English you know.
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The problem for me is that I've backed the ABs to win the WRC. On last night's effort, the England forwards will murder the AB forwards. |
Strewth Finbar – what an admission.
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The ABs persisted with the intentional fouls, but the ref chickened out. |
The ABs not playing it fair all the way through – I am utterly shocked.
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That means Spencer or whoever is putting across the kicks needs to strike at or about 75%, and we must win 90% or better of our own ball in the lineouts. Neither of those things occurred on Saturday, but having said that it was still an admirable win! |
Finbar was right – you pretty much nailed it all. It’s hard to see our forwards playing so poorly against you a second time – and we will pressure the line out. Beyond Jack the line out doesn’t have any particularly secure receivers for you. Having said that Thompson may throw some of our ball straight to you.
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One factor, though, to bear in mind. The weather. The WRC will start in warm-ish conditions, and, by the time of the final, it should be very warm. Ageing forwards beware. |
We say “Bring it on”. Unseasonal rain that is.
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Translation = by definition, an England Second Team. |
Oh absolutely. Third string in some areas in fact. But still a decent side. Surprised you haven’t mentioned the new caps – one of which not having been born in England…
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But don't, for one moment, think that such blatant sucking up changes the fact that it's a Second XV taking on Wales! |
As if I would!
I’m trying to work out why the Wales game is on Sky incidentally. Still that means Fox affiliates may show it worldwide…yeah right.
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I also think the hooker is a talent. That aside, I think they're lacking in the front row and engine room. |
In the loose perhaps – but against our meat grinder?
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IMO the AB will learn the lesson the hard way. Rugby is a game where you have forwards and backs (aka runners), Rugby is not meant to be played with 15 runners. |
Patience mon ami – the IRB is no longer loaded with SH heretics and we are slowly getting our beautiful game returned to us.
Roll on the crack down on offside – we can revert to not using it but the ABs will be screwed.
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It's been down for an extended period every day this week. Their new server is an unmitigated disaster. |
It does rather seem that way.
Terrific link Andydog. Guaranteed to wind up Wallabies.
Why are the AB forwards drawing heat – because they remain deficient in crucial areas I would suggest. The Kiwis posting here are pretty objective but you only need to check our Planet Rugby and the like to find umpteen carried away AB fans already trying to give them the RWC.
Much has been made of our last win over the ABs being when the ABs were rusty – but here is the thing - Finbar was wrong when he said we couldn’t improve much on that – Wilko and all our forwards were poor that day by their standards and it’s unlikely to happen again. I refuse to discuss backs on the grounds that it may not flatter us in the comparison.
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
I heard him talking about a wonderful expression the locals had, something about the players being inspired by the sound of the local church bells ringing. "Something ... la cloche .... " Are you familiar with the expression? What is it exactly? |
Was it a reference to the "esprit de clocher", the "spirit of the church tower"? The "esprit de clocher" is a local chauvinism generally linked to one's hometown or natal area. We also speak about the "church tower rivalries", the "rivalités de clocher", to describe the rivalries between close towns or villages.
As far as Rugby is concerned there are obvious "rivalités de clocher" between Toulouse and Colomiers, Agen and Castres.
There are many other colloquialisms linked to the bells:
- "Sonner les cloches", which could be translated as "to ring the bells to someone". It means severely reprimanding someone,
- "N'entendre qu'un son de cloche", "to hear only one bell's ring", means to hear only one opinion,
- "Ce ne sera pas le męme son de cloche", "this will not be the same bell's ring", means there will be a different opinion expressed or a situation very different in the future. Ex 1: "The Stade Toulousain has won its game at home but this will not be the same bell's ring at Agen". Ex 2: "If you ask Finbar to tell you the full story I am sure it won't be the same bell's ring",
- "A la cloche de bois", "to the wooden bell", means "secretly",
- "Etre cloche", "to be bell", describes a clumsy and gullible person,
- "la cloche", "the bell", describes the state of the tramps we sometimes name the "clochards" or the "Clodos" in slang.
Do you find here what the [EDIT]over-rated self indulgent journalist who once played for the Wallabies[/EDIT] was talking about?
Last edited by Tamerlin on 22-08-2003 at 07:06
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
Was it a reference to the "esprit de clocher", the "spirit of the church tower"? The "esprit de clocher" is a local chauvinism generally linked to one's hometown or natal area. We also speak about the "church tower rivalries", the "rivalités de clocher", to describe the rivalries between close towns or villages.
As far as Rugby is concerned there are obvious "rivalités de clocher" between Toulouse and Colomiers, Agen and Castres.
Is it what your friend was talking about? |
Not my friend, an over-rated and self-indulgent journalist who once played for the Wallabies! But yes, it was esprit de clocher. He described it pretty much as you did. It's a wonderful expression and notion. Actually, he also put it forward as a reason why Les Grenouilles don't play as well away from home as they do at home. But then he's famous for being an idiot.
Edit. Oh, and why isn't there an article in front of clocher? Why isn't it du clocher? Or is it idiomatic?
A-ha! I think I've just found why! My dictionary says de clocher translates as "parochial". So de clocher is a stand alone expression, not, in this context, part of a possessive case.
Last edited by finbar on 22-08-2003 at 06:47
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18-08-2003 12:36
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