19-08-2003 01:26									#31
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I don't think Fox is any where near as ideological as say the Nazis. They do have an ideology but that's because Murdock (who's originally from Australia btw) has found he can make money by telling people what they want to hear.

	19-08-2003 01:28									#32
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Get a grip on yourself.

	19-08-2003 01:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Verto As if every other source of news isn't full of bias and it's own agenda....FOX is only singled out because it isn't pro-liberal.

Of course thats not true. Most other major American television news agencies don't have the pro-liberal bias

Fox is to America as Peoples Daily is to China. It really is that simple.

	19-08-2003 01:31									#34
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I'm still trying to figure out how we got an Australian billioniare telling everyone how to be a patriotic American.

	19-08-2003 01:31									#35
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The fact of the matter remains the same. Because FOX is pro-Conservative, instead of pro-Liberal, it is singled out.

	19-08-2003 01:32									#36
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US liberal is still very right wing though.

	19-08-2003 01:38									#37
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As long as you realize that Fox News is actually a parody of the right, it can be very entertaining.

Last edited by Ramo on 19-08-2003 at 01:43

	19-08-2003 01:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Verto The fact of the matter remains the same. Because FOX is pro-Conservative, instead of pro-Liberal, it is singled out.

Fox is singled out becuase it goes well beyond any other station in having all their anchors editorialize for right-wing causes on the air. People can claim that all the others are biased for the left all one wants, all you have to do to see the difference is ask for transcripts of shows, and the bias on Fox oozes out per page, while for the "left-biased ones", you have to infer that this, and that and thus...

I have seen left-biased sources as blatant as FOX: but they aren't anywhere near as big as it.

I agree to a minor degree with Oerdin, in that the left, once it got power, acted as arrogantly as the conservatives who had been in power before, and thus helped bring about the backlash now. Some of what brought the left to power in the '60's has now turned on it.

	19-08-2003 01:39									#39
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Oerdin, that idiology is telling people what they want to hear, thus making Murdock more money.

Verto does have a point, the extreme anti-liberalism and pro-conservatism of Fox does make it a target for those of us that disagree with its idiotic nature, and are watched by impressionable vegetables of double figure IQs. Nonetheless, if it wishes to establish an extreme position in relation to others, it must be prepared for the expected flak received thus.

	19-08-2003 01:42									#40
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Ramo:

GePap: That is true, however, I am merely concerned with concepts, not the failings of men whose bones are dust and whose organs are a pulp of organic chemicals and a not inconsiderable amount of scotch.

	19-08-2003 01:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Nobody ever lost money underestimating people's stupidity and gullibility- certainly not in the U.S.A. .....

Nobody ever lost an election that way either.

	19-08-2003 01:47									#42
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Concern for concepts outside of their practical implications is a recipe for alientation from the masses. To mainatin the masses in agreement with you, they have to see practical imporvement of their lives, and even more importantly, a sense of further practical improvement, since people are all too quick to dismiss whatever wonders they have and demand even more.

	19-08-2003 01:51									#43
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GePap, that is indeed correct, however, the masses can do whatever the hell they want! I see society, or human civilisation like a car.

Most people are in the engine, you have some drivers (the leaders, the pressure groups, most intellectuals etc etc), and you have the headlights. Whereas historians are the rear view mirror, one can say that idealists are those that find the direction for the car to go in, amid the darkness, in turn inspiring and fuelling the drivers to move the wheel. The drivers need the support of the masses, I need food and water.

	19-08-2003 01:55									#44
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quote: Originally posted by elijah GePap, that is indeed correct, however, the masses can do whatever the hell they want! I see society, or human civilisation like a car. Most people are in the engine, you have some drivers (the leaders, the pressure groups, most intellectuals etc etc), and you have the headlights. Whereas historians are the rear view mirror, one can say that idealists are those that find the direction for the car to go in, amid the darkness, in turn inspiring and fuelling the drivers to move the wheel. The drivers need the support of the masses, I need food and water.

But if people don;t like the road ahead, they can stop, and turn around, or worse, decide to drive blind. People can be stubborn that way. And then, you won;t even get food and water, becuase we all are now dependent on the structure society has built for our very lives.

	19-08-2003 02:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by elijah GePap, that is indeed correct, however, the masses can do whatever the hell they want! I see society, or human civilisation like a car. Most people are in the engine, you have some drivers (the leaders, the pressure groups, most intellectuals etc etc), and you have the headlights. Whereas historians are the rear view mirror, one can say that idealists are those that find the direction for the car to go in, amid the darkness, in turn inspiring and fuelling the drivers to move the wheel. The drivers need the support of the masses, I need food and water.

pretty typical inflated leftist opinion of themself. for all ur equality u sure like to classify society quickly.

	19-08-2003 02:03									#46
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Well, the driver can do what he wants, the idealist merely provides him with information to choose the word. The backseat driver may take an idea to the people. People are free to live in their idiocy, and I learned that it is irrelevant to try to take on the worlds concerns on your shoulders. There will be an answer, let it be, and all that.

One will always finds the means to survive and get by, it so happens that my particular ideas may actually have an audience (if not here) so there is the possibility of living on them. If not, I am not merely capable of irritating patriotic Americans, I have many talents!

	19-08-2003 02:03									#47
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon pretty typical inflated leftist opinion of themself. for all ur equality u sure like to classify society quickly.

At least he believes he has a goal and mission in life: that ususally helps greatly.

Of course society can be classified, and is classified. Everyone does it. It is like lying.

	19-08-2003 02:07									#48
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quote: pretty typical inflated leftist opinion of themself. for all ur equality u sure like to classify society quickly.

Well.. theres nothing wrong with self confidence, especially if lack of that gets in the way of your mental fortitude as well as intellectual processes. Who said I am egalitarian? Most people ARE blithering idiots (the engine), now while they should have the same opportunity to do whatever any one else does, I am not so blind to fail to recognise that they dont and wont!

	19-08-2003 02:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GePap At least he believes he has a goal and mission in life: that ususally helps greatly. Of course society can be classified, and is classified. Everyone does it. It is like lying.

apathy or elitism. choices choices.

	19-08-2003 02:14									#50
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Elitism. Lets not beat about the bush here. I'm not going to claim some politically correct high ground here, I think what I think. I cannot fail to notice that all the liberals I know and know of are very very intelligent people, if few in number compared to the following, while the conservative masses and their loudest voices tend to be somewhat more simple minded, the mindset of the mass, the worker etc. See sig.

Thats not saying that its the case in every case, but lets be honest! Read the article on liberalism on my site if you wish.

EDIT: And there is nothing wrong with elitism, if you are prepared to adopt the intellectual equivalent of a "give 'em hell" or "sod them" attitude. Elitism merely means that something is out of the normal domain of the masses or the majority, and I am fine with that, and indeed support that position, as I have said, liberalism requires more cognetive effort which most people are either unable or unwilling to give.

	19-08-2003 02:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Elitism. Lets not beat about the bush here. I'm not going to claim some politically correct high ground here, I think what I think. I cannot fail to notice that all the liberals I know and know of are very very intelligent people, if few in number compared to the following, while the conservative masses and their loudest voices tend to be somewhat more simple minded, the mindset of the mass, the worker etc. See sig. Thats not saying that its the case in every case, but lets be honest! Read the article on liberalism on my site if you wish.

did u just call the conservative party the party of the worker? marx will have ur left nut.

	19-08-2003 02:20									#52
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I suppose in a way I did!

There is a suttle difference. Marx was more concerned with the interests of the workers and their needs, whereas the conservatives pander to what they want, which is a vicious circle of patriotism, absolutism, and popularism, not to mention the rather blatent lack of consideration, or rather, the lack thereof regarding the flawed, yet unquestioned assumptions on which the conservative position relies.

Note I am talking about conservatism more of the concept, not the party, although in some respects the two, in Britain, are converging.

Last edited by Whaleboy on 19-08-2003 at 02:25

	19-08-2003 02:24									#53
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Tell yourself whatever it takes, so you can make it through another day.

	19-08-2003 02:27									#54
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Meaning?

	19-08-2003 02:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by elijah I suppose in a way I did! There is a suttle difference. Marx was more concerned with the interests of the workers and their needs, whereas the conservatives pander to what they want, which is a vicious circle of patriotism, absolutism, and popularism, not to mention the rather blatent lack of consideration, or rather, the lack thereof regarding the flawed, yet unquestioned assumptions on which the conservative position relies. Note I am talking about conservatism more of the concept, not the party, although in some respects the two, in Britain, are converging.

why choose to loathe just patriotism? why not loathe gay pride?

	19-08-2003 02:44									#56
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I believe he meant that if being delusional helps you keep going then he will support it.

	19-08-2003 03:00									#57
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quote: I cannot fail to notice that all the liberals I know and know of are very very intelligent people, if few in number compared to the following, while the conservative masses and their loudest voices tend to be somewhat more simple minded, the mindset of the mass, the worker etc.

My, we are trying to climb onto a higher horse, aren't we?

If I say that all the conservatives I know are very, very intelligent people, while the liberal masses are more simple minded, will you then change your tune and move the other way? I doubt it. However, I have found this to be fairly true (generalizing, of course). The smartest friend I had was a liberal, but after that all conservatives, and the liberal masses I've been in contact with (on college campuses) are mostly blithering idiots.

Of course that doesn't mean I call all liberals simple minded, even though William F. Buckley could argue circles around Al Sharpton .

	19-08-2003 03:02									#58
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quote: why choose to loathe just patriotism? why not loathe gay pride?

There is no loathing, merely a distaste - one should not succumb to hatred. People always band together in groups etc, its human nature, now to a point, thats ok, like with team sports, or as you suggest, a group with a common concern - safety in numbers on an intellectual level. This of course does not change the fact that it is still flawed, however at this point the benefits outweigh the costs. However, there is a limit to the logic of that position, for example, alligiance, love, discrimination, even the possibility of dying for it, is fundamentally based on a fallacious assumption. Indeed, beyond sports, national patriotism is a perfect example of that fallacy.

quote: I believe he meant that if being delusional helps you keep going then he will support it

Its not dillusional, thats the entire point! One could say that conservatism is the dillusional position for aforementioned reasons. Of course I could say that all are illusions, but this is neither the time nor the place to get Platonic.

	19-08-2003 03:08									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui My, we are trying to climb onto a higher horse, aren't we? If I say that all the conservatives I know are very, very intelligent people, while the liberal masses are more simple minded, will you then change your tune and move the other way? I doubt it. However, I have found this to be fairly true (generalizing, of course). The smartest friend I had was a liberal, but after that all conservatives, and the liberal masses I've been in contact with (on college campuses) are mostly blithering idiots. Of course that doesn't mean I call all liberals simple minded, even though William F. Buckley could argue circles around Al Sharpton .

Yeah, I agree Imran -- gross generalizations from either side are based on -- nothing.

	19-08-2003 03:09									#60
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quote: My, we are trying to climb onto a higher horse, aren't we?

No, like I said earlier, I'm taller!

quote: If I say that all the conservatives I know are very, very intelligent people, while the liberal masses are more simple minded, will you then change your tune and move the other way? I doubt it.

Simply because a position is held by more intelligent people does not NECESSARILY make it "correct" for a given context, nor should that be a reason to choose it. I choose it because it agrees with me, whether it is popular with certain groups of people or not. However, I am merely pointing out that a reason for people choosing liberalism could be a greater intellect.

Lets not get confused about idiots. I am a blithering idiot in the sense that I have little skill with practical tasks, short attention span and relatively incapable of multitasking. I am saying that people capable of satisfying the greater cognetive requirements of liberalism (http://www.geocities.com/ben_j_elijah/liberal.htm) are thus more likely of choosing that position than those who are incapable of supporting it in their minds, providing they have not been indoctrinated which is a practise I disapprove of no matter what the position, for I would rather people to come to a certain conclusion themselves.

EDIT: Fixed erroneous link