19-08-2003 05:36									#91
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Expanding their minds beyond the pathetic little rat race worlds of the prolitariat and the various other cogs in that pointless machine that keeps on running, whose only product seems to be more carbon dioxide and methane heading into the air! Lets just say I wasn't always the enlightened liberal. I only became so because of a hell of a lot of free time, and encouragement to think about my then views and what they were based on. Discussing it with various people, mostly intellectuals seems to show that it is a matter of some people being liberal as part of their inherent disposition, and others using their intelligence to come to that conclusion. Generally, when debating with others, they default to "well I love my country" and the like, or the verbal equivalent of a punch in the face, which would seem to indicate that you have reached a point in a conversation where they are incapable of understanding. I blame the TV!

I had a lot of freetime so I became liberal. why does this seem so insightful?

	19-08-2003 05:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Fox had the foxiest babes. There is little doubt how they won the coverage wars.

You can say that again!

Laurie Dhue
E.D Hill
Jennifer Eccleston
Brigitte Quinn
Jane Skinner
Lis Wiehl
etc...

and my favorite, the loveliest, sweetest, sexiest, most beautiful of all,

Heather Nauert

	19-08-2003 05:37									#93
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quote: Conservatives have the intellectual and knowledge necessary to survive in the real world, liberals study and teach "philosophy" and other useless nonsense in college.

What crap...

quote: Fundamentally, liberalism is far more intellectually and mentally demanding than conservatism

Utter crap...


Have we now degraded to the point where we're going to start trying to classify a person's intelligence and usefulness by their political orientation?

If you removed your heads from your asses you might notice that there are lots of both kind of people on both sides and that a person's political preferences in no way determines their success in life.

	19-08-2003 05:39									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II What crap... Utter crap... Have we now degraded to the point where we're going to start trying to classify a person's intelligence and usefulness by their political orientation? If you removed your heads from your asses you might notice that there are lots of both kind of people on both sides and that a person's political preferences in no way determines their success in life.

what if they politically believed that no1 should work more than 10 hours a week? that would most definitely be detrimental to certain types of success

	19-08-2003 05:40									#95
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There's a difference between believing it and doing it...

And there are plenty of rich people who work a lot less than 10 hours a week.

	19-08-2003 05:41									#96
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quote: Of course, this just reinforces the belief that the intellectual elite feel they should rule and hold the government positions, and the rest of us should just follow

In all fairness, conservative leadership is good for its comic value!

Again, if you were actually reading my posts earlier, you would see that I personally do not seek power. If I personally am to be considered a member of the intellectual elite (and I thank you, I take it as a compliment... expanding your mind is something I think is rather important.. you're really missing out!) I would much rather study and think, and leave the running of a country to people more pragmatic and capable of leadership than I. Of course, its unrelated, but the best people for the job there imo are from the intellectual elite, but do not necessarily have to be liberal, for example economists etc.

	19-08-2003 05:42									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II There's a difference between believing it and doing it... And there are plenty of rich people who work a lot less than 10 hours a week.

most rich ppl work quite a bit. but yes there does exist rich ppl who no longer work very often and there is probably some old money in europe somewhere, I hear they like old money.

	19-08-2003 05:48									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because the business men are SMART!

I'll believe it when I see it. Most businesspeople I've had the displeasure to deal with are boorish and anti-intellectual. They usually carp on about being self-made men.

quote: They realize that they have a much better chance of being in power if they let the Christians and military wonks into their party and think they are running things.

Actually. like military types and fundies, businessmen tend to be a conservative lot in the sense that they do not like change and instability in the background conditions of society.

And I give a damn if Fox is the most watched "news" channel (try 'infotainment'). Television news in this country is all sensationalistic BS. I quit watching TV "news" alltogether long ago. There's this thing called the internet now ...

Oh, and NPR is good, as well as non-biased. Check it out.

	19-08-2003 05:48									#99
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quote: I had a lot of freetime so I became liberal. why does this seem so insightful?

Think about it, its really not that difficult. Incidentally have you actually given me an argument against my position that isnt ad hominem? I always take such flaws as a sign of inferior reasoning, so you might want to actually attack my argument using l o g i c atronising:.

Dip:

quote: Have we now degraded to the point where we're going to start trying to classify a person's intelligence and usefulness by their political orientation?

Not at all, if you are goign to talk about usefulness, then the intellectually elite, at least in the immediate context are not useful. However that is flawed. To each his own, however I am showing that liberalism is harder to "do" than conservatism. As already stated, this does not affect general intelligence, maybe perhaps critical or literary ability, but I am not trying to say that liberals are a race of uber humans!

yavoon: I prefer the idea of letting people sign whatever contracts both sides find mutually acceptable, whether that is one hour or 168, its not the business of anyone else to intervene. I'm liberal in world view, not social.

	19-08-2003 05:49									#100
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quote: most rich ppl work quite a bit. but yes there does exist rich ppl who no longer work very often and there is probably some old money in europe somewhere, I hear they like old money.

I'm not saying most... just that there are plenty of them, but proportionately, they are in the minority.

And I'm not just talking about business types... there's plenty of people who through one brand of dishonesty or another have managed to get by in life very well while doing remarkably little.

"Sh*t rises to the top."

	19-08-2003 05:50									#101
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quote: To each his own, however I am showing that liberalism is harder to "do" than conservatism.

How is it harder to "do" than conservatism????

	19-08-2003 05:50									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II I'm not saying most... just that there are plenty of them, but proportionately, they are in the minority. And I'm not just talking about business types... there's plenty of people who through one brand of dishonesty or another have managed to get by in life very well while doing remarkably little. "Sh*t rises to the top."

well if u r talking about fraud then we should catch them! if u r just talking about being underhanded then its just caveat emptor in the business world. a fool and his money are soon parted.

	19-08-2003 05:52									#103
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quote: Originally posted by elijah yavoon: I prefer the idea of letting people sign whatever contracts both sides find mutually acceptable, whether that is one hour or 168, its not the business of anyone else to intervene. I'm liberal in world view, not social.

I find it very hard to believe a liberal would take this view. this is pretty hardcore libertarian. ur letting all sorts of things in, sweatshops, indentured servitude? I mean damn.

	19-08-2003 05:53									#104
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quote: How is it harder to "do" than conservatism????

quote: Liberalism in terms of world and moral views relies on the assumption that your view is subjective and does not necessarily hold for other people, other cultures, other moral views, whereas conservatives rely on their views being perceived to be ultimately good, "god bless america" and all that. As such, they use the notion of ultimately, or objectively good concepts as a justification for their imposition and application. Such a view of course lends itself to patriotism, and it appeals to the idiotic in two ways. The first is of course patriotism, as most people cannot cope with expanding their "span of sympathy" as Milgram put it. Liberals by their nature require a larger span of sympathy. Similarly, liberalism encourages tolerance, which is hard for people, who prefer to wrap themselves up in the "comfort blanket" of their views, patriotism, and the like. I often hear the notion of conservatism encourages hatred of ones enemies . Fundamentally, liberalism is far more intellectually and mentally demanding than conservatism, the latter being a nice simply little package to shrink wrap and hand out like cheeseburgers to those who are incapable or unwilling to think further, and thus come to the conclusion that the assumptions upon which conservatism is based (i.e. patriotism) are essentially fallacies. Its a great shame, but most people are not willing to accept that, but c'est la vie. Theres a more in depth article on my site, if you wish you can PM me if you want more detail.

	19-08-2003 05:53									#105
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Um... elijah, I think the man that can come up with an idea that many people 'buy into' (so to speak) IS smarter and more intelligent than some elitist ivory tower type with a high IQ and philosophically inclined.

quote: Liberalism in terms of world and moral views relies on the assumption that your view is subjective and does not necessarily hold for other people, other cultures, other moral views

I'm sure Ted Kennedy would be surpised at that assesment as well as many other liberals on this site who are not relativists.

	19-08-2003 05:55									#106
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I'm talking about both fraud and under-handedness... but as I said, I'm not just talking about the business world. I have little pity for someone who loses their shirt in the business world... it's not that it's because I assume that they're stupid or incompetent but rather just because they knew what they were getting into and if you lose its no one's fault but yours for going into it in the first place. Screwing consumers, investors, and the general public, on the other hand, is another matter.

But I mean an under-handedness in general... I mean, you want to talk about being "smart" there have been plenty of people in the world who have used bureaucracy and such to become very rich while doing nearly nothing and never even entering the business world... I'd say that's somebody who's pretty smart... of course, he and the crooked entrepeneur are equally both scum.

	19-08-2003 05:56									#107
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quote: I find it very hard to believe a liberal would take this view. this is pretty hardcore libertarian. ur letting all sorts of things in, sweatshops, indentured servitude? I mean damn

Again, im liberal in world view and moral view. I'm also a libertarian in a MAJORLY big way. Its hypocritical for liberalism to state that x is morally wrong or whatever, or that it has the interests of that person at heart, even though they contradict. Again thats why im an intellectual liberal and a cognetive relativist.

In terms of sweatshops etc, well it sucks imo, but hey if people want to sign for it, who the hell am I (the government) to stop them? If they can prove theyre being forced into it, slavery etc, then thats crossing a line. See the Mill Limit.

	19-08-2003 05:57									#108
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Elijiah, one's open-mindedness and acceptance of other beliefs is not defined by whether one is liberal or conservative... that's just stereotyping.

	19-08-2003 05:58									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II I'm talking about both fraud and under-handedness... but as I said, I'm not just talking about the business world. I have little pity for someone who loses their shirt in the business world... it's not that it's because I assume that they're stupid or incompetent but rather just because they knew what they were getting into and if you lose its no one's fault but yours for going into it in the first place. Screwing consumers, investors, and the general public, on the other hand, is another matter. But I mean an under-handedness in general... I mean, you want to talk about being "smart" there have been plenty of people in the world who have used bureaucracy and such to become very rich while doing nearly nothing and never even entering the business world... I'd say that's somebody who's pretty smart... of course, he and the crooked entrepeneur are equally both scum.

ok I can vent w/ u. I really really hate the heads of large non profit organizations. they are the biggest leeches in the history of humanity. they are the ultimate examples of lil work lotsa reward.

	19-08-2003 05:58									#110
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[sarcasm] Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder. [/sarcasm]

I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence.

Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants.

And I don't see how patriotism and sympathy are mutually exclusive.

Maybe you are insecure with your political orientation, and have to boost your self-esteem by doing this.

	19-08-2003 06:00									#111
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quote: Um... elijah, I think the man that can come up with an idea that many people 'buy into' (so to speak) IS smarter and more intelligent than some elitist ivory tower type with a high IQ and philosophically inclined.

See, I would never say that. I would say he is better at business/marketting than others. I would not say he is more smarter or more intelligent, he may well be thick as **** at other stuff. You're viewing smartness through very tinted glasses.

quote: many other liberals on this site who are not relativists

You mean the hypocrites?

	19-08-2003 06:02									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... elijah, I think the man that can come up with an idea that many people 'buy into' (so to speak) IS smarter and more intelligent than some elitist ivory tower type with a high IQ and philosophically inclined.

I still don't see that as being a qualifier as one's intelligence... Neither is a qualifier for intelligence. Just because someone is a teacher does not mean they're less intelligent than someone who is after money... not everyone is interested only in monetary gain. Similarly, being a teacher doesn't make you any more intelligent because just because you have tenure and read lots of books doesn't mean you're any better than the street performers who are busting their asses for cash and are taking their business some place.

The ultimate point: To each his own.

	19-08-2003 06:02									#113
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quote: Elijiah, one's open-mindedness and acceptance of other beliefs is not defined by whether one is liberal or conservative... that's just stereotyping.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

One argues about concepts of course, but when one applies them to a person, its more of a cocktail.

	19-08-2003 06:03									#114
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quote: See, I would never say that. I would say he is better at business/marketting than others. I would not say he is more smarter or more intelligent, he may well be thick as **** at other stuff. You're viewing smartness through very tinted glasses.

Likewise. Your tinted glasses show 'intelligence' as what liberal 'thinkers' do, but NOT what conservative 'businessmen' do. You believe it takes more intelligence to write a book than it does to build a company from nothing to a major world player. This is your own tinted glasses view.

I'll say it again and again, Bill Gates is smarter than Alan Dershowitz.

	19-08-2003 06:10									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Verto [sarcasm] Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder. [/sarcasm] I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence. Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants.

Everybody needs a philosophy, and almost everyone has a philosophy... that goes for businessmen too.

And Republicans aren't all businessmen... I mean issues like abortion and prayer in school have nothing to do with pragmatism but rather rest on an abstract concepts of God and such. This is a philosophy. Just because its borrowed and not built entirely from scratch makes it any less so.

And what exactly do you define as an intellectual? There have been lots of intellectual leaders in this country... and as for "self-proclaimed" philosophical giants... why? because they think they're know whats best? What conservative doesn't? Who doesn't period?

quote: You mean the hypocrites?

elijiah, again, I ask you, what does one's political orientation have to do with relativism or open-mindedness?

	19-08-2003 06:10									#116
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quote: Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder.

Its such a sweet deal!

quote: I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence

Strictly, true. However, I have yet to find a philosophical person who has seemed less clever than anyone else of any other profession! Seriously, league of own kind of thing, but yes you are right objectively, I have my subjective views, and they sound better .

quote: Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants

I believe in democracy to a point. Too much, then the democracy fallacy applies, where majority opinion is treated as a source of "truth" or a valid basis for a decision where that is not the case. Besides, I'd rather have economists, philosophers, scientists, sociologists etc in charge than lay people who happen to be popular.

quote: And I don't see how patriotism and sympathy are mutually exclusive

Patriotism, psychologically, is a means of defining ones own group, your banner to flock to etc, because its too demanding to tolerate all, always, particularly when they contradict you. Hence the weakening of american philosophical post modernism after 9/11.

quote: Maybe you are insecure with your political orientation, and have to boost your self-esteem by doing this.

I have no political orientation, because that notion is insufficient for me. Nonetheless, if you have to continue resorting to ad hominems, can I take thus inferior reasoning as a consession in the debate?

DP:

	19-08-2003 06:13									#117
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quote: However, I have yet to find a philosophical person who has seemed less clever than anyone else of any other profession!

Easy .

Agathon (or any other philosophy dude) vs. MtG

quote: Nonetheless, if you have to continue resorting to ad hominems, can I take thus inferior reasoning as a consession in the debate?

Does this mean you conceeded in your first post?!

	19-08-2003 06:14									#118
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Argh! Look, just because the mainstream Republican party politicians may not be the most free-thinking group in the world does not mean that conservatives as a whole are this way.

Conservatives (individual citizens) are a broad range of people... so are liberals.

The point is that you can't use conservatism and liberalism as the qualifier for who thinks more and is more intellectual. It just doesn't work. Liberalism and conservatism are not things which one DOES that requires brain-power. It would be as though saying believing in Christianity is harder than Islam. You just believe it!

	19-08-2003 06:15									#119
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quote: Likewise. Your tinted glasses show 'intelligence' as what liberal 'thinkers' do, but NOT what conservative 'businessmen' do.

The word intelligence shouldnt be interpreted in the familial sense. I do not see liberal inteligence or whatever as generic intelligence. As myself and DP said, to each, his own.

quote: I'll say it again and again, Bill Gates is smarter than Alan Dershowitz.

And Linus Torvalds is smarter than Bill Gates . jk

quote: eljiah, again, I ask you, what does one's political orientation have to do with relativism or open-mindedness?

Because moral and cognetive relativism is essentially tolerance of other views. Liberalism is fundamentally based on relativism.

	19-08-2003 06:15									#120
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Dom: Very good post. I do agree, of course. Intelligence is something different than simply political preference. There are many smart conservatives and many smart liberals and there are many dumb ones.