19-08-2003 06:16									#121
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by elijah The word intelligence shouldnt be interpreted in the familial sense. I do not see liberal inteligence or whatever as generic intelligence. As myself and DP said, to each, his own. And Linus Torvalds is smarter than Bill Gates . jk Because moral and cognetive relativism is essentially tolerance of other views. Liberalism is fundamentally based on relativism.

funny I always felt liberalism was built on guilt empathy and self indulgance. but then again, ur not much of a liberal.

	19-08-2003 06:19									#122
	Support Apolyton

quote: Agathon (or any other philosophy dude) vs. MtG

I'd take on MtG anytime anywhere! (as long as its not on law ). I'm sure Agathon would concur!

quote: Does this mean you conceeded in your first post?!

Dont see why! I was stating a proposition not actuallly making an extensive case!

DP: Liberalism, or rather moral/cultural relativism is essentially harder to process in the mind than moral/cultural absolutism. Easy assumptions, easy answers.

(its disclaimer time )

	19-08-2003 06:22									#123
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: funny I always felt liberalism was built on guilt empathy and self indulgance. but then again, ur not much of a liberal.

If you're looking at the concepts behind liberalism, I'm pretty close to the ultimate liberal! . You are confused because you are associating it with socialism. I am not a socialist, I am a capitalist (to a point).

	19-08-2003 06:22									#124
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by elijah I'd take on MtG anytime anywhere! (as long as its not on law ). I'm sure Agathon would concur! Dont see why! I was stating a proposition not actuallly making an extensive case! DP: Liberalism, or rather moral/cultural relativism is essentially harder to process in the mind than moral/cultural absolutism. Easy assumptions, easy answers. (its disclaimer time )

moral relativism is the philosophical version of a copout. its not "harder to process."

	19-08-2003 06:23									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Incidentally, liberalism literally means libertarianism.

Anyways I'm off to bed, bump this thing in the morning! jk

	19-08-2003 06:23									#126
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by elijah If you're looking at the concepts behind liberalism, I'm pretty close to the ultimate liberal! . You are confused because you are associating it with socialism. I am not a socialist, I am a capitalist (to a point).

maybe this whole european/american what a liberal is is cocking up the thread. but I don't think its possible to find a liberal in america that believes in indentured servitude.

	19-08-2003 06:24									#127
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by elijah Incidentally, liberalism literally means libertarianism. Anyways I'm off to bed, bump this thing in the morning! jk

yah ok u europeans must simply have inverse definitions of what a liberal is. gj mr. intellectual elite.

	19-08-2003 06:26									#128
	Inflate your Upload Space

ummm... was he using the classical European definition of liberal this entire time?

Because if so, this whole thing becomes quite complicated...

	19-08-2003 06:27									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II ummm... was he using the classical European definition of liberal this entire time? Because if so, this whole thing becomes quite complicated...

elitist cluster****.

	19-08-2003 06:31									#130
	Tired of ads?

I think one must separate Conservatism and Libralism from Socialism and Capitalism. Stalin was a conservative socialist. I am a liberal socialist, David Floyd is a liberal capitalist (libertarian), Fez is a conservative capitalist. Then of couse you have the realist/idealist dicotomy.

So I am an Idealist Liberal Socialist

My philosophical musings beat MtG's by a factor of 10 and I am only 17.

	19-08-2003 06:32									#131
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Fox News is not ultra right. It just isn't the ultra-left drivel that most people have become so accustomed to seeing on the news.

	19-08-2003 06:33									#132
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: I'd take on MtG anytime anywhere!

And lose.... badly.

quote: ummm... was he using the classical European definition of liberal this entire time?

He should warn us next time if that was the case.

	19-08-2003 06:38									#133
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Fox News is not ultra right. It just isn't the ultra-left drivel that most people have become so accustomed to seeing on the news.

	19-08-2003 06:49									#134
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm still trying to figure out how we got an Australian billioniare telling everyone how to be a patriotic American.

It's very simple- he's an American now. He had to become American in order (perhaps given his media outlets' products, that should be in 'ordure') to keep his hands on newspapers AND television stations.

His own mother finds his newspapers distasteful.

Oh and Imran- 'liberal masses'- that's very funny.

And yavoon, yes Eurocommies or Brit Commies do have a different definition of liberal- perhaps because there is a 'Liberal Party' in Great Britain, and Great Britain is the home of Liberalism.

http://classweb.uchicago.edu/Civili...industrial2.htm

It has its origins in the non-conformist groupings of the 17th Century, religio-political movements such as the Levellers, but is best known in its more conformist 19th Century incarnation- the party of William Gladstone, seen as the living embodiment of liberal principles.

	19-08-2003 07:23									#135
	Got spare money?

What a weird detour: though we can only laugh at Faux News so many times.

We get into different definitons of liberals, into definitions of inteligence, so forth and so on.

I guess I am one of the hypocrites under Elijah's definitions.

	19-08-2003 07:23									#136
	Tired of ads?

I guess it depends if you are a 'liberal'

	19-08-2003 07:26									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

While I agree with Liberals [AM], my views are more complex than that. I do now is that I don;t agree with many of the basic tenets of conservatism, so I can't possibly be one.

	19-08-2003 07:28									#138
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No! It depends on what your definition of "is" is. Just ask Clinton.

	19-08-2003 07:29									#139
	Increase Your PM Length

Well I'm not sure if we decided whether or not by 'liberal' elijah is refering to libertarians. Of course this makes the claim even more interesting because Berzerker, Wraith, and David Floyd, the biggest libertarians around are absolute moralists. And, in fact, I thought that absolute morality was a bedrock tenant of libertarianism (which is why I refer to myself as a moderate or pragmatic libertarians), because everyone's got rights under that view (or so I thought).

	19-08-2003 07:32									#140
	Support Apolyton

Well, in theory you could come up to libertarianism both ways. Either you say :everyone has fundamental inalienable rights than can under no circumstance ever be broken!, or you can say: no one has any rights or privaledges under nature, so you can't really ask or demand anything of anyone else unless they willingly give it to you.

	19-08-2003 07:32									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And if we're getting into a general definition of these things...

then a liberal is someone who wants moderate change.
a conservative is someone who wants no change.
a radical wants immediate and extreme change.
and a reactionary wants dramatic changes back to the way things used to be.

I consider myself a reactionary...

but then what a reactionary is in America is different from a reactionary in Europe. An American reactionary would want smaller government and more freedom, a European reactionary would want bigger governments, monarchies, removal of democracy, etc.

But then many radical Europeans want bigger governments too, but not the same kind, they want Socialist governments, which when one thinks about it is like the monarchies in certain ways...

so when an American conservative says he's conservative, does that mean that he wants things exactly as they are because sometimes they don't, and they want things as they were, but then that's why American conservatives differ from the classical definition...

	19-08-2003 07:34									#142
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Did you guy's hear me? Democratic Socialists and Libertarians are both liberals. Conservatives are Stalinists, Fascists, Monarchists, Christian Democrats (like the US Republicans), etc.

	19-08-2003 07:36									#143
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II And if we're getting into a general definition of these things... then a liberal is someone who wants moderate change. a conservate is someone who wants no change. a radical wants immediate and extreme change. and a reactionary wants dramatic changes back to the way things used to be. I consider myself a reactionary... but then what a reactionary is in America is different from a reactionary in Europe. An American reactionary would want smaller government and more freedom, a European reactionary would want bigger governments, monarchies, removal of democracy, etc. But then many radical Europeans want bigger governments too, but not the same kind, they want Socialist governments, which when one thinks about it is like the monarchies in certain ways... so when an American conservative says he's conservative, does that mean that he wants things exactly as they are because sometimes they don't, and they want things as they were, but then that's why American conservatives differ from the classical definition...

I have to disagree. As I said elsewhere, it is not true that conservatives want no change. They aren't stupid, they know change will happen. They differ with liberals as to the proper method of change. Now, the method they favor is slower, but change invariably happens.

As for reactionaries being inherently monarchists: well, how reactionary? A Stalinist in Russia is a reactionary, no?

	19-08-2003 07:41									#144
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dom, US Reactionaries are the Racists, Religious bigots, etc.

	19-08-2003 07:42									#145
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

GePap: Much of that was supposed to be rambling... (opening myself up to a remark ) point being that political definitions such as these get very complicated and often times muddled.

Yes, you're right... conservatives don't want to halt change completely, and a Russian reactionary could be a Communist, true.

But here's the thing... change is inevitable... but to what end? I mean, we say sometimes when talking about seemingly stubborn people in history that have fought to maintain a dying system that they couldn't accept the changing times. And often times we sort of laugh at them for choosing to hold onto something that couldn't be held on to, but when do we say: "Ok, this is where we need to be. No more change is needed."?

	19-08-2003 07:44									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Dom, US Reactionaries are the Racists, Religious bigots, etc.

That's not completely true... it depends on which capacity you're talking about. Politically, that is not necessarily true. Socially, it certain can be.

I am a political reactionary but a social liberal/libertarian.

	19-08-2003 07:46									#147
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The Liberal conservative scale is no longer valid in today's world. It is part of a 3D grid alonf with Socialism/Capitalism and Idealism/Realism.

	19-08-2003 07:50									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II But here's the thing... change is inevitable... but to what end? I mean, we say sometimes when talking about seemingly stubborn people in history that have fought to maintain a dying system that they couldn't accept the changing times. And often times we sort of laugh at them for choosing to hold onto something that couldn't be held on to, but when do we say: "Ok, this is where we need to be. No more change is needed."?

Were we go is a function of how we go primarilly. I view the basic distinction between a liberal [AM] and a conservative in the idea that a liberal might say "this end outcome would be the best cause of X and Y: lets build the institutions to get there!". A conservative is more apt to say " C and Y today are sound basis and whatever change they bring about will be good, so lets make X and Y strong". Both sides seek positive change, but their vision of how one gets there, what it takes, and whatr the foundation should be is very different. I myself favor the liberal notion more, if only becuase I don't particualrly think that today's X and Y are in any way inherently good.

	19-08-2003 07:50									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Well, in theory you could come up to libertarianism both ways. Either you say :everyone has fundamental inalienable rights than can under no circumstance ever be broken!, or you can say: no one has any rights or privaledges under nature, so you can't really ask or demand anything of anyone else unless they willingly give it to you.

Hmmm... I guess that is true. The later is more rare from what I've seen... especially in an American context.

	19-08-2003 08:13									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by elijah Why not? There is a logical argument for that being the case. Just because it is not politically correct, or it might offend peoples naive sensibilities is no justification for me not to say it, and support it. Lets not delude ourselves, where is my argument flawed?

It's not about f*cking political correctness -- it's about common sense and logic. Political ideology does not determine one's intelligence.

Geez -- pull your head out of your *ss.