19-08-2003 08:20									#151
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Odin Did you guy's hear me? Democratic Socialists and Libertarians are both liberals. Conservatives are Stalinists, Fascists, Monarchists, Christian Democrats (like the US Republicans), etc.

Have you ever taken a PoliSci class? Stalinists are most certainly not conservatives! Stalinists are radical leftists!!

Furthest Right (Reactionary Right)- These people want to return society to a previous social order. The classical example is the monarchists who opposed Republican France and wanted to restore the French Monarchy.

Moderate Right (Conservative)- These people believe society as it currently exists is mostly as good as we can make it. They agree that certain small changes need to be made but believe these changes should occur slowly so as not to upset the apple cart.

Moderates (Centrists)- These people believe that moderate changes need to occur in society but that these changes can be spread out over some length of time and that fundamentally the basic system is sound.

Moderate Left (Progressives)- These people believe that very sizeable changes need to occur in society and that society should adopt extensive new methods in order to quickly achieve this goal. They still believe these changes can occur with in the system but they would like to see changes occur as quickly as possible.

Far Left (Radical Left)- These people believe that the system is fundamentally flawed and that society must be immediately and radically reordered. The changes they advocate are so radical that they believe they can only be brought about through armed revolution.

* Note that everybody except for the reactionary believes that society has problems and must change in order to meet these problems. The main point of disagreement is the extent of the changes and how quickly those changes need to occur.

In addition to the generic Left-Right spectrum there are also several influential political ideologies:

Communist- All means of productions no matter how small should be owned by the state and then distributed to the people in a manner which makes everyone exactly the same economically.

Socialist- All major means of production, especially industrial production, should be owned by the state but minor means of production can and should remain privately owned.

Fascism- The nation is the paramount concern because it embodies the will and the desires of the people. All industry should be privately owned but organized, via government regulation, in a manner which best suits the needs of the state. The fascist believes that private ownership is the most efficient arrangement and that the state's job is to effectively focus productive output to achieve national goals.

Laisez Faire Capitalist- Private enterprise is the best and most efficient means to achieve wide spread economic prosperity. Further more, excess government regulations hampers private enterprise and distorts the free market thus retarding economic growth and harming the nations economic advancement. Therefor, the government should refrain from excessive interference with the market and should only curb the worst abuses while trying to keep taxes as low as possible.

	19-08-2003 08:28									#152
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So then by that definition, fascism isn't far right...

	19-08-2003 08:33									#153
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Moderate Left (Progressives)- These people believe that very sizeable changes need to occur in society and that society should adopt extensive new methods in order to quickly achieve this goal. They still believe these changes can occur with in the system but they would like to see changes occur as quickly as possible.

I might want to say that I'm this, and I thought I was this, but based on this description, I'm not sure.

	19-08-2003 08:34									#154
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It is and it isn't. Fascism is very strange in that it takes from the far right, the far left, and comes up with sludge .

	19-08-2003 08:34									#155
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II So then by that definition, fascism isn't far right...

Fascism is as far right as you can get without being a reactionary. The main point of Fascism is the state's relationship to productive industry.

	19-08-2003 08:35									#156
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Have you ever taken a PoliSci class? Stalinists are most certainly not conservatives! Stalinists are radical Leftists!

Not really, but my history teacher let me borrow his college PoliSci textbook and I learned a lot of interesting things (such as the distinction between a political state and a nation). I consider Stalinists conservative because they oppose democracy, which I see as a important part of liberalism. Just because they are socialists doesn't make them liberals and vice versa. although this is not technically correct, the French revolution was between pro-republic and pro-monarchy, setting a precident that democracy or anarchy is "Radical" and absolutism is "Reactionary".

	19-08-2003 08:38									#157
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I might want to say that I'm this, and I thought I was this, but based on this description, I'm not sure.

Examples of typical Progressive ideas are national health care, state sponsored retirement payments for the elderly, and the things of this nature. They represent a fairly major shift in a section of the social order but this shift is still achieved by using the system and not through revolution.

I am of course generalizing but sometimes you must generalize in order to see the big picture. In each country the politics varies slightly but the over all left-Right spectum is fairly consistent.

	19-08-2003 08:40									#158
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin An example of a typical Progressive idea is national health care, state sponsored retirement payments for the elderly, and the things of this nature. I am of course generalizing but sometimes you must generalize in order to get see the big picture. In each country the politics varies slightly but the over all left-Right spectum is fairly consistent.

I see -- sounds like I would support some of the ideas of moderate Progressive, but not everything.

Such are the problems that arise when we have such categories.

	19-08-2003 08:41									#159
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But this doesn't make any sense... Fascism wasn't reactionary... fascism was radical.

	19-08-2003 08:42									#160
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oerdin, according to the definition you posted Fascism is Radical Left.

	19-08-2003 08:47									#161
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II But this doesn't make any sense... Fascism wasn't reactionary... fascism was radical.

Facism is Radical RIGHT. Reactionary Righties are Monarchists.

Oligarchies can either be Reationary Left (USSR) or Reactionary Right.

	19-08-2003 08:48									#162
	Support Apolyton

See, that's how I'd define it too...

	19-08-2003 08:51									#163
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Laisez Faire Capitalist- Private enterprise is the best and most efficient means to achieve wide spread economic prosperity. Further more, excess government regulations hampers private enterprise and distorts the free market thus retarding economic growth and harming the nations economic advancement. Therefor, the government should refrain from excessive interference with the market and should only curb the worst abuses while trying to keep taxes as low as possible.

That's close enough.

	19-08-2003 09:01									#164
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Odin Oerdin, according to the definition you posted Fascism is Radical Left.

No. If you noticed I distinctly broke apart political ideologies from the Left-Right Spectrum. The reason I did that is that some of the political ideologies do not fit neatly into the traditional two demensional spectrum. these pead several Political Scientists to create three (triangular) sided, four sided (diamond shaped), and even 3D cube shaped political spectrums. The goal of all of these spectrums was to take a complex idea (politics) and to reduce it to a simple idea which everyone can grasp (a spectrum); the problem is (as Imran said) some ideologies take from both the left and the right and thus are bastards to catagorize.

Out of convention Facism is normally defined as Rightist since most of its political philosophy is a reaction to the post WW1 instability.

	19-08-2003 09:04									#165
	Put an end to popups!

But if you define rightist as being conservative or reactionary, then Fascism is not that...

	19-08-2003 09:07									#166
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well, we always have the yanks to look down upon.

No, you don't. You've never been here muthafukka. I on the other hand have eaten mozartkugeln like crazy.

	19-08-2003 09:09									#167
	Tired of ads?

I'm guessing GP's been hitting the bottle...

	19-08-2003 09:11									#168
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Is Dom dom, the same as Dom Pedro?

And give me the scoop on your travel to the meet. Did you come down from exitland? Thought you were a Bal'morean...

	19-08-2003 09:12									#169
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Odin Facism is Radical RIGHT. Reactionary Righties are Monarchists. Oligarchies can either be Reationary Left (USSR) or Reactionary Right.

By definition reactionaries can only be rightists and radicals can only be leftists. It's just the terminology convention which political scientists use. You will find that every science has very process meanings for words, which lay people often misuse or use in a less process manner. In my own field of geology commonly used words such as "tight", "fine", "cobble", or "gradual" have EXTREMELY precise and well defined meanings. You have to do that so that everyone knows what you're talking about when you say it is a tight syncline in which the bedding gradually grades from cobble sized conglomerates to fine grained sandstone. When you look it up in a geology dictionary I have just described a formation down to the millimeter size of the clasts and how many meters it takes to grade from one clast size to the next.

BTW Oligarchies are an organizational and not a political relationship. Meaning that organizational structure can be utilized by anyone of just about any political persuasion.

	19-08-2003 09:15									#170
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

blalbalba

	19-08-2003 09:19									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II But if you define rightist as being conservative or reactionary, then Fascism is not that...

READ THE DEFINITION! Conservative isn't just what you hear Rush Limbaugh jabber about. In PoliSci left & Right deals with the rate and extent of changes to the social order. Conservatives, in PoliSci, means someone who seeks minor changes to the existing social order. That's it. It doesn't mean the Republican Presidential ticket.

We are looking at things mainly as how fast changes should occur and how great a change should occur. This is how the Political Scientist defines the spectrum. The specifics such as what changes a political party advicates isn't dealt with.

	19-08-2003 09:20									#172
	Put an end to popups!

goo goo goo

	19-08-2003 09:24									#173
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah, I live in New Jersey... I've learned here for years.

I took Amtrak down to Washington... it was an alright trip. Some jack ass got thrown off the train though in Trenton because he refused to pay for his child's ticket... the kid was talking, walking around and stuff, and he tried to play it off as though the kid were under 1 years old!

Anyway, I took the Metro from Union Station to Dupont Circle, paced around for about ten minutes trying to figure out where the hell 18th street was until I asked a hot dog vendor, and the answer was given to me by a Bible salesman.. hehe.

I ended up waiting from 12:30 till after 1 for KH and Milla.

And I took the train from the Baltimore Penn station on the way back... Shi dropped me off there after we hung out at KH's pad for a while. Jesus, the pizza sucked ass.

NYC pizza is vastly superior.

	19-08-2003 09:27									#174
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Oerdin - I'm aware of that, but you yourself said that Fascism is as far right as you can get, which by the explanation you laid out would put them in the category of Reactionary.

Unless you meant that the conventional placement of Fascism is in the far right...

	19-08-2003 09:29									#175
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Oerdin - I'm aware of that, but you yourself said that Fascism is as far right as you can get, which by the explanation you laid out would put them in the category of Reactionary. Unless you meant that the conventional placement of Fascism is in the far right...

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry about mincing words and not being more clear on the matter.

	19-08-2003 09:33									#176
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

a reactionary is someone reacting to the current situation

so if the current situation is liberal, a reactionary could vbe conservative but doesn't have to be

I ahve had pizza that was so much worse than that, that it wouldn't even be on the same chart

Jon Miller

	19-08-2003 09:35									#177
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You see! Even when we get a set of definitions, we still get confused!

Politics is not the realm for human beings...

	19-08-2003 09:37									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In complete seriousness, give me your evaluation of Digiorno's

	19-08-2003 09:37									#179
	Full PM-box? Change here!

He's right and you're right. The soul definition of a reactionary is that they wish to return to a previous social order thus if someone in Russia wanted to return to Soviet Communism then they'd be a reactionary even though they are advicating a leftist idea.

	19-08-2003 09:39									#180
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You should see Brazilian pizza... I don't even know if I should classify it as "bad" or "pizza".

They don't even have any friggin' sauce or cheese! And they put stuff like bananas and carmel on it.... they have these all you can eat pizza places and they just keep coming around with pies... and you can almost get like separate portions of a meal out of it.

Sea food for the appetizer, chicken or beef (or veggies for Jon) as the main course, and like bananas or cinnamon for dessert. I mean, it's hardly pizza... its more like bread with shhh-stuff on it.

Not a surprise in a country where ketchup = tomato sauce.