23-08-2003 13:44									#1
	Gender Profiling, OK? Racial Profiling, Not? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Men commit more crime than women...or are police officers sexist as well as racist - black people commit more crime too.

I suggest we institute gender and racial profiling. It would help police divert resources to where most needed and with a higher chance of "success" in catching criminals.

	23-08-2003 14:27									#2
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I don't see how either would be at all effective.

	23-08-2003 14:41									#3
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What the hell FP..would you rather police stand at corners of golf courses watching for criminals, or in inner-city areas?

Having police target their time on places and people that are more likely to commit crime is a better use of their resources. I thought you had more sense than to post the above.

	23-08-2003 15:38									#4
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Don't give me that "I'm disappointed in you" bollocks. It isn't going to work.

"Racial profiling" would suggest that police are keeping an extra-special close eye on people of a certain race, and ignoring people of other races. That's wrong.

And what golf courses have to do with anything I'm not quite sure.

quote: more likely to commit crime

Are non-whites really more likely to commit crime or are they simply more likely to get caught because police are concentrating more on them than the whites?

	23-08-2003 16:47									#5
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The real big crimes are usually commited by some white businessman... we should concentrate the police forces on them ...

	23-08-2003 16:49									#6
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hey OJ goes golfing quite a bit, so maybe we should keep police close to golf courses

	23-08-2003 19:46									#7
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quote: "Racial profiling" would suggest that police are keeping an extra-special close eye on people of a certain race, and ignoring people of other races. That's wrong. And what golf courses have to do with anything I'm not quite sure.

Keeping a close eye on a race - if they have been shown to commit more crime, as blacks clearly have - would mean more criminals caught.

My point about the golf course is an analogy (have you heard of those?) - we expect police to be in areas where risk of crime is higher, just as we expect police to "monitor" those groups of people whose perceived risk of crime is higher.

And those at a lower risk of committing crime wouldn't be ignored, just paid a little less attention to as resources are diverted where crime-fighting needs it most.

It's politically-correct extreme-left-wing bullshit like this that has led to our perceived crime rate rocketing.

quote: Are non-whites really more likely to commit crime or are they simply more likely to get caught because police are concentrating more on them than the whites?

I think we know the answer to that one.

	23-08-2003 19:55									#8
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Are you really arguing that the police is not more present and agressive in the ghetto parts of town than in the upper-class parts?

	23-08-2003 19:56									#9
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quote: I suggest we institute gender and racial profiling. It would help police divert resources to where most needed and with a higher chance of "success" in catching criminals.

Creates a lot more problems than it solves, especially if innocent people are caught up unnecessarily. Also creates a lot of bad blood between the cops and the community-. Los Angeles is a good example of this, as well as Detroit where I live: the cops in the 'burbs routinely harass black folks once they enter city limits.

	23-08-2003 20:05									#10
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There are two things that you're ignoring Bod's.

The first is that blacks already tend to get harsher treatment than whites when it comes to the law (blacks are more likely to get the death penalty (especially when they murder a white)) and blacks have their cars pulled over and searched a whole helluva lot more than whites do. These facts skew the claim that black people commit more crimes.

The second thing that must be noted is that, if you observe statistics, it's actually poorer people that tend to commit more crimes. It just so happens that there are many more poor and black people than there are poor and white people.

	23-08-2003 20:08									#11
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It's more difficult to observe poverty than it is to observe skin colour. Agree?

	23-08-2003 20:09									#12
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No, Boddington, we don´t now it.
At least if you don´t have any scientific Papers wich clearly prove it.

After all I hear from America white judges and Policemen often tend to treat Blcks harder than white people, so this could make a difference if for example a white man who commited a crime is set free because of missing witnesses whereas a blac person (who also does´t have witneses who observed him committing the crime) is found guilty.

Another Factor is poverty. If for example black people are generally poorer than white people, they probably grow up under harsher Conditions than white people and often experience more violence than people who grow up in the middle or rich class, in some suburbs with mown Lawns and nice little Houses.
So this could also have an Influence on the probability of people to commit crimes.

SO I think it is difficult to say for example: Blacks comit more crimes than whites and so suspiciously keep an Eye on every Black Person in the county, even if it is establishes black Businesmen or rich black Childen who go to Harvard.
On the other Hand, if you, for example have a Policestation in some quiet suburb and live next to a Slum where you have a lot of Black Gangs, it might be helpful, to keep an Eye on Blacks which enter your Suburb

	23-08-2003 20:10									#13
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And being poor doesn't give blacks an excuse for committing crime, either. So forget going down the poverty-excuse line.

	23-08-2003 20:20									#14
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But basing it on race creates tension and hatred, which only makes things worse.

And poverty isn't more difficult to observe than skin color. You have to go into a person's house and invade their privacy to tell that they're black; all it takes to see that they're poor is to look at the shitty conditions of the house, which you can do from the outside.

	23-08-2003 20:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And being poor doesn't give blacks an excuse for committing crime, either. So forget going down the poverty-excuse line.

Nope, but this leads to statistical Errors.
To realy see if Blacks commit more crimes than Whites you had to compare a Black Population under poor Living Conditions
with a white Population under the same poor Living Conditions and then have to look if under these Conditions the Black still commit more crimes than the Whites.
Of course everything under the Prerequisie, that Policemen and Judges don´t act rassistic.

And, if you see that under those Conditions Blacks and Whites commit roughly the same Number of Crimes, you know, that it hasn´t to do anything with race than rather with Poverty.
And so your Policemen shouldn´t concentrate on the Colour of the skin, but rather look which people look poor and which don´t and then stronger observe the poor looking People, regardless of if they are black or white.

	23-08-2003 20:24									#16
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Fine, Proteus, then we take skin colour as a proxy for poverty when income is not ascertainable.

	23-08-2003 20:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael There are two things that you're ignoring Bod's. The first is that blacks already tend to get harsher treatment than whites when it comes to the law (blacks are more likely to get the death penalty (especially when they murder a white)) and blacks have their cars pulled over and searched a whole helluva lot more than whites do. These facts skew the claim that black people commit more crimes. The second thing that must be noted is that, if you observe statistics, it's actually poorer people that tend to commit more crimes. It just so happens that there are many more poor and black people than there are poor and white people.

Nope, In the US there is actually more white people on wellfare then black people. That makes sense when 3/4 oif the population is white. What blacks do have is a higher percentagte of population living in poverty but the absolute number is still lower then the absolute white number.

	23-08-2003 20:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Nope, In the US there is actually more white people on wellfare then black people. That makes sense when 3/4 oif the population is white. What blacks do have is a higher percentagte of population living in poverty but the absolute number is still lower then the absolute white number.

Erp, I said number? Woops. What you said is what I meant. Thank you for correcting that.

	23-08-2003 20:35									#19
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If racial profiling is ok as a substitute for profiling on socioeconomic status, then Affirmative Action is OK. I believe in neither, and Boddington, I believe you don't like the second either.

	23-08-2003 20:38									#20
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Poverty is the key to crime. While it is true that crime is committed at all income levels, the majority of violent crime is committed by the impoverished. Racial profiling is hogwash. Race has little to do with crime. Education levels and income levels have by far the greatest impact. Provide for a decent education and therefore increase earning power and you will see a drop in violent crime.

As for "Poverty profiling", all you have to do is go to an impoverished area and you can easily see this is already happening.

	23-08-2003 20:40									#21
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Race does have a lot to do with crime, but is not the cause. It is associated with the same thing crime is associated with, socioeconomic status. THAT is the connection.

	23-08-2003 20:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker If racial profiling is ok as a substitute for profiling on socioeconomic status, then Affirmative Action is OK. I believe in neither, and Boddington, I believe you don't like the second either.

I'm not sure that is true. What if there is an immanent threat like say an Arab looking terrorist who we believe is going to bomb a plane? Profiling Arabs would be illegal but surely if we want to stop the terrorist it is best to look for someone of his description? I.E. an Arab.

	23-08-2003 20:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Race does have a lot to do with crime, but is not the cause. It is associated with the same thing crime is associated with, socioeconomic status. THAT is the connection.

It is not an inherently race issue is my point. Your are correct that it is a socioeconomic issue. The social part is equal opportunity and the economic is equal education.

	23-08-2003 20:47									#24
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if we knew specifically that an arab looking terrorist was going to do something bad, then that's fine.

But, just the general threat that there are some arabs in the world that don't exactly like the US (understatement of the year) really isn't enough. There has to be evidence that a crime is going to be commited, if you ask me.

	23-08-2003 20:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's It's politically-correct extreme-left-wing bullshit like this that has led to our perceived crime rate rocketing.

For some time, I knew a few rich white teenagers who indulged in drug dealing (edit: out of many rich teenagers who indulged in drug smoking).

For some reason, they have never had any problems with the police... Maybe because the police spent all its resources arresting Blacks and Arabs who were buying their **** ?

	23-08-2003 20:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael (blacks are more likely to get the death penalty (especially when they murder a white))

I call BS.

	23-08-2003 20:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor For some time, I knew a few rich white teenagers who indulged in drug dealing (edit: out of many rich teenagers who indulged in drug smoking). For some reason, they have never had any problems with the police... Maybe because the police spent all its resources arresting Blacks and Arabs who were buying their **** ?

Perhaps, but usually it is the rich teenagers going to the ghetto to buy a nickel bag.

	23-08-2003 20:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm not sure that is true. What if there is an immanent threat like say an Arab looking terrorist who we believe is going to bomb a plane? Profiling Arabs would be illegal but surely if we want to stop the terrorist it is best to look for someone of his description? I.E. an Arab.

Ah, but there race and religion are a DIRECT factor, not an indirect one.

	23-08-2003 20:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Ah, but there race and religion are a DIRECT factor, not an indirect one.

Exactly. This is not profiling. Information as to the likely race or nationality exists before the investigative phase. In profiling it does not.

	23-08-2003 20:58									#30
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My point was that you cannot conduct racial profiling for crime, because it is only an indicator of the true indicator, socioeconomic status. However, when it is the true indicator, such as for terrorists, you can profile.