24-08-2003 00:35									#61
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Spiffor: what the french police do... is that allowed? i mean it happens in the US sometimes but people report it and measures are taken. police officers have lost their badges over this... can french citizens sue?

	24-08-2003 00:35									#62
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That's patently absurd. The war on drugs alone makes the US more authoritarian than any other western democracy.

	24-08-2003 00:41									#63
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spiffor, in the us, cases of racial profiling are always an issue of whether or not the police officers were truly profiling or not... there is no question of the validity of profiling... its completely accepted as illegal...

	24-08-2003 00:42									#64
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quote: The war on drugs alone makes the US more authoritarian than any other western democracy.

YAY! not only are we the only bastion of freedoms but we are also the only bastion of common, decent morality!

	24-08-2003 00:45									#65
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How can it possibly be considered be completely accepted as illegal when the gov't, at every level, actively does it with impunity? Hell, the first time a state passed legislation against racial profiling was three years ago.

Last edited by Ramo on 24-08-2003 at 00:51

	24-08-2003 00:55									#66
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quote: YAY! not only are we the only bastion of freedoms but we are also the only bastion of common, decent morality!

It's pretty sad how you whine about "rich, white liberals" oppressing black people when you support the single policy that keeps them in subjugation the most.

	24-08-2003 00:57									#67
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Ramo:

the constitution is fairly clear about the issue of illegal searches. searches require at the very least a reasonable suspicion which the race of the suspect solely does not include. also reasonable suspicion assumes that the police officer has reason to believe the suspect has committed a crime. when a police officer stops a random driver, there is no such suspicion as there is no crime...

police officers can get around this, however, by clearly indicating searches of all vehicles will be done (ie- at checkpoints) but can't go after random drivers on the freeway. thats unconstitutional.

and the civil war amendments also make this doubly clear and specify that the Fourth Amendment can not be abridged due to race.

	24-08-2003 00:59									#68
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I'll paraphrase Malcom X paraphrasing Elijah Mohammed... everytime you break the seal on a liquor bottle, thats a US Gov't seal. the liquor is the state-sold and regulated tool of oppression...

you got it backwards, omar... legalization is the oppression...

	24-08-2003 00:59									#69
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quote: the constitution is fairly clear about the issue of illegal searches. searches require at the very least a reasonable suspicion which the race of the suspect solely does not include.

Irrelevent. The 4th Amendment hasn't been properly enforced in a long time (thanks in large part to the war on drugs). It shouldn't be considered real law.

	24-08-2003 01:03									#70
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Who said I supported the state dealing drugs? That isn't most peoples' idea of legalization.

And drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. When the state throws drug addicts in prison, that's real subjugation.

	24-08-2003 01:04									#71
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Omar:

there have been cases of a people being found with drugs on their person, being arrested, and a conviction seemed imminent when it was brought to the court's attention that the search was done illegally and the evidence of the found drugs had to be thrown out... though the person clearly commited a crime, the fourth amendment prevented a conviction.

	24-08-2003 01:05									#72
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quote: Who said I supported the state dealing drugs? That isn't most peoples' idea of legalization.

umm... so the Dutch gov't doesn't supply people with drugs?

	24-08-2003 01:05									#73
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It's occasionally enforced, true. But it isn't properly enforced.

	24-08-2003 01:09									#74
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BTW, it hasn't been unconstitutional since 1789 as you stated earlier. Only after the passage of the 14th Amendment and subsequent court decisions have state and local gov'ts (the people who do practically all of the policing) been subject to it.

quote: umm... so the Dutch gov't doesn't supply people with drugs?

Which drugs does the Dutch gov't give out?

	24-08-2003 01:11									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Spiffor: what the french police do... is that allowed? i mean it happens in the US sometimes but people report it and measures are taken. police officers have lost their badges over this... can french citizens sue?

To select over racial criteria is forbidden by the law AFAIK. However, suing cops is:
1. very difficult except if there is a blatant wrongdoing (like a cop murdering someone). Indeed, it is often "my word vs his word" and the AFAIK, it is written in the law that a cop's word is more trustworthy than someone else's. Besides, one has to go to the cops to file the complaint
2. It is very difficult to prove the selection was done on racial criteria. The cop can say pretty much anything and get away with it. Besides, this practice is encouraged by the police, and as such tolerated by justice
3. Suing is not as much part of our culture than of yours. Most often, people will just ***** about it, or sraw some "fvck the police" tags.

	24-08-2003 14:38									#76
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quote: My point was that you cannot conduct racial profiling for crime, because it is only an indicator of the true indicator, socioeconomic status. However, when it is the true indicator, such as for terrorists, you can profile.

Maybe socioeconomic status isn't a true indicator but an indicator of something else. Can't we at least consider that maybe skin colour is the true indicator, and crime figures and socioeconomic status are both a result of that.

quote: Racial profiling a huge abuse of state authority and a totally idiotic allocation of police resources.

No, as per reason outlined in the first ten or so posts. Please return to Page 1.

	24-08-2003 15:05									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Maybe socioeconomic status isn't a true indicator but an indicator of something else. Can't we at least consider that maybe skin colour is the true indicator, and crime figures and socioeconomic status are both a result of that.

Of course we can do it.
As soon as it can be proven by scientific Studies, which carefully analyses the different possible Factors which may contribute to criminality, like socioeconomic Status and Skin Colour, that Skin Colour does significantly contribute more to crime than other Factors.

To date I don´t know of any study on this field which has proven a clar link between Skin Colour and Criminality.

	24-08-2003 15:08									#78
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Yes, and there will never be because of types like the political correct wannabes that will get all outraged at what I just posted.

Even if such a study may contribute to effective crime-fighting.

	24-08-2003 15:28									#79
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I´ve got to admit, that I wouldn´t like to be the Scientist who publishes the Study, at least if it significantly proves that there is a greater Link between Skin Colour and Crime than between other Factors.
It would cause much more outrage than "Bell Curve" has.

Of course on the other hand there is no Danger of a worldwide Outrage aganst the Study and its author, if Socioeconomics if found to be the major contributor to crime.

So (if you are the scientist) it all depends on your results if you are praised or damned

	24-08-2003 19:26									#80
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Bodd's is reaching new lows...

	24-08-2003 19:42									#81
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What, you think they're new ?
I think this thread is very ordinary on the Bodd's scale

	24-08-2003 19:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Bodd's is reaching new lows...

I agree! It is absurd to say that criminality is based solely on skin color. Show me all the black kids that were raised in upper middle class and upper class homes that are hanging on a street corner selling drugs. It is more than obvious that it is socioeconomic and not skin color. When equal educational opportunities are provided then you will see this trend change. The simple fact of the matter is that black communities are not allocated the same resources that white communities are. That is why you have a higher percentage of blacks involved in crime. If the economic situation were reversed then would we hear Bods saying that whites are criminal because of their skin color? I think not. Totally inacurate conclusion based on his own brand of racial profiling!

	24-08-2003 19:48									#83
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PLATO

	24-08-2003 19:57									#84
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I think there are two sides to this argument.

The first is that crime is not related to skin colour and you, as a person, are not necessarily more likely to commit a crime if you are black. However, taken as an entire socio-economic group, there are going to be more criminals in certain groups than others.

In that sense, I find myself agreeing with Bodds to a point. That point is purely utilitarian. If there is a particular socio-economic group that is more likely to commit a crime, then logically it should be given more police attention. I think the politically correct backlash against racial discrimination, while well intentioned in the first place, can reach a point where it becomes an impedence to all, including the people it was meant to protect. Crime hurts the community it is committed in most, so one must find a point of equilibruim, where crime hotspots are tackled.

However, that does not or should not mean repression. All are entitled to the same opportunities and simply because their community may have more criminals, does not make a person more likely to commit a crime (a simple case of necessary and sufficient conditions here). As such, I dont think stop and search tactics are a good idea, rather the police should be passive and only active when dealing with actual criminals.

In the meantime, Plato is absolutely correct, the primary means of tackling crime is to tackle is sociological and economic causes.

	24-08-2003 20:30									#85
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Perhaphes we should be taking culture into account as well. Some cultures seem more permissive about crime while other cultures seem to cast out people who cmmit crimes.

For an instance where culture may be relavent to the crime rate look at Latinos vs Blacks. Both are disproportionately poor and undereducated yet the crime rate in the black population is 3-4 times hire. I don't think race is responsible but perhaphes culture is.

	24-08-2003 20:39									#86
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yes, but you can't register culture.

OTOH, That's why special police task forces design to deal with certain communities are a good idea.

	24-08-2003 21:12									#87
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It is important to note why a culture developed as it did as well. Black culture arose out of the depths of segregation. Today's immigrants do not face the same obstacles and therefore develop a different culture. That is not to say that discrimination has vanished, but rather that it is no longer an institutional function. While a great distance has been covered since desegregation, the funding role has certainly lagged. The culture that this has inspired is certainly more social in origin than racial.

	24-08-2003 22:56									#88
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I agree! It is absurd to say that criminality is based solely on skin color. Show me all the black kids that were raised in upper middle class and upper class homes that are hanging on a street corner selling drugs. It is more than obvious that it is socioeconomic and not skin color. When equal educational opportunities are provided then you will see this trend change. The simple fact of the matter is that black communities are not allocated the same resources that white communities are. That is why you have a higher percentage of blacks involved in crime. If the economic situation were reversed then would we hear Bods saying that whites are criminal because of their skin color? I think not. Totally inacurate conclusion based on his own brand of racial profiling!

I sorry but you can't imply causality from the above. It's just speculation.

Just like it's speculating me saying that skin colour could "cause" both poverty and increased likelihood of crime; rather than skin colour being linked with income and income linked in a different way with crime.

	25-08-2003 05:24									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I sorry but you can't imply causality from the above. It's just speculation. Just like it's speculating me saying that skin colour could "cause" both poverty and increased likelihood of crime; rather than skin colour being linked with income and income linked in a different way with crime.

Bullshit! How can you not apply causality? Are you suggesting that there is no link between income level and violent crime? Are you implying that there is no link between poverty and education?

Your post was so inherently stupid that I almost just ignored it. I'm sure that I will wish I had once you come back with another pig headed ill informed racist outpourring of irrelevant tripe.

	25-08-2003 05:28									#90
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PLATO has now wholeheartedly convinced me, simply because of the sheer quality of his insults. The scary thing is, I'm not joking!