08-03-2004 03:44									#301
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Bongo has sent me a reply:

quote: We are very glad to hear from you again I have posted your note in our 'embassy' thread for everyone to see. I have been a guest in your irc channel once before, and will happily visit you again. If time permits I'll drop by this week. I'll give my team-mates time to bring up some subjects first. We could always have a general discussion on WW if you like Most of our team-members (myself included) live in GMT+1 btw. Bongo, Kriegsminister German Webring Team

	08-03-2004 17:08									#302
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Another PM form Bongo:

quote: Suddenly remembered one thing you could do for us. I just posted a proposal in the UN to ban further jumping. I would be happy if someone from your team(with the appropriate powers) could tell if the your team accept the proposal or not. Bongo, Kriegsminister German Webring Team

I hope everybody sees that it is nessesary that we put this issue behind us, so I think we shouldn't play it very hard against them.

Arnelos did comment in the UN on the former proposal:

quote: I'd just like to report here that the poll I started on Apolyton to approve GWT's proposal that we play on the game accepting bygones are bygones, but strictly banning unit warping in the future, is passing overwhelmingly. I expected that it would do so, seeing as GWT's current proposal matches our original policy and a ban on unit warping was something we've wanted the whole time. I will note, however, that we still seek for there to be a resolution of the WW issue.

Arnelos. I think that both you and Bongo agree, could you speak out your support for his proposal? When this is settled, I have a base from which I can work on other issues.

Aidun

	08-03-2004 18:12									#303
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I suggest another exception...

There are circumstances when unit warping is unavoidable.

eg.

CFC & APO go to war over the ownership of a chokepoint city.

All of CFC's units are at the city.
All of APO's units are in the city.

It's APO's turn, and they attack with everything they got against CFC.
They get a bad roll, and almost every unit dies. CFC is injured, but not nearly as much, and has enough units left to take the city, and half of Apolyton territory.

APO, contact CFC mid turn, tell them the results, and then offer them the chokepoint city for free in a peace deal.

CFC agree, so long as it it passed on with peace on this turn.

APO finishes the turn, then gives peace & the city to CFC.l

APO's injured units are warped back to the capital with the gifting.


On this example, the unit warping is an unintentional by-product of a peace negotiation, that involved the gifting of a city.
It should be allowed.


Change the wording of Bongo's proposal, to read
"City gifting for the intentional purpose of unit warping is banned."

	08-03-2004 19:22									#304
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There is an argument pro and one contra. I'm fine with either, as long as we don't play it too hard against GWT: there is more to gain from the future than from the past. This is an attempt to present the two options unbiased.

Pro:
What H_E explained: it is an unintentional side effect. The gifting of the city cannot be done by moving the troops out of the city is impossible because they have already attacked. Gifting the city with unit warping is the only option.

Contra:
In the real world, all the troops that attacked this turn would have been defeated by CFC and those left over would have fled away to the surrounding area, like what used to happen in civ2 after you had discovered nationalism. Warping troops is in the real world impossible and if you want civ 3 to be a simulation as close as possible to the real world, it should be forbidden, intentionally or as side effect.

A solution to the problem that the occurs, that we cannot gift the city and therefore are unable to sign the peace treaty, could then be that you sign a peace treaty in which you agree that Apolyton will retreat its troops out of the city next turn or that CFC is allowed to conquer the city and that Apolyton will not reinforce the city.

Aidun

	09-03-2004 01:40									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Arnelos. I think that both you and Bongo agree, could you speak out your support for his proposal? When this is settled, I have a base from which I can work on other issues.

This already passed by a vote within this forum, so yes I can post our support for a ban of unit warping.

The WW issue still needs to be handled, however.

EDIT: Just read H_E's post and he does have a point. My initial reaction was simply that we would have to move all of the units out of the city before doing the city gift, but that could be a problem if CFC's entire army is sitting 1 tile outside (as they could then just refuse the gift and take the city by force, continuing the war).

Perhaps this needs some discussion. I'd recommend bringing up this issue at the U.N., though not in the specific terms that H_E mentioned regarding an Apolyton-CFC war, of course.

	09-03-2004 03:59									#306
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Maybe it will sufice to just have a general rule about teleporting and have the Admin (mongoose) make rulings on a case by case basis. That way common sense can over rule an over encompassing rule.

	09-03-2004 04:03									#307
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Rules are nice, but they need flexability.
Allowing the admin to make common sense rulings for the enjoyment of the game is the best way.

	09-03-2004 05:50									#308
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You realize, of course, that it was the very same Mongoose who authorized GCA's massive unit jump in the first place, right?

Just playing devil's advocate here...

	09-03-2004 17:44									#309
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And GCA's Warp...

E_T

	09-03-2004 18:06									#310
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quote: Originally posted by E_T And GCA's Warp...

That's what I just said.

	09-03-2004 19:22									#311
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Oh, sorry, I'm tired (and still a little bit angry) and thought that you had said CGN....

E_T

	10-03-2004 07:33									#312
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Aidun has been given the mission of trying to negotiate a solution to the city swapping issue with GWT.

A chatlog of our chat with mongoose will be posted shortly.

	10-03-2004 18:03									#313
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My PM to Bongo. I remembered him to meet here for chat.

quote: Dear Bongo, Perhaps you have already noticed the topic of Mongoose in the UN about city trading. The reason that I contact you is that we have heard that you trade cities with GCA to allow both your fleet to pass though the canal that you have made for this purpose. Before we engage in heated debate that does not bring us any further on this issue, we would first like to discuss that issue with you. I have heard that some teams and members of them consider this an exploit, but as many find it a clever strategy of GCA and your team and do not object it at all. In our forum the opinions on this are diverse and some have good reasons to show that it is a clever strategy and others have not unreasonable arguments to show that it is an exploit. There are but many aspects about it than just passing the fleet or other units through it and some of these aspects are considered acceptable by all, others not acceptable by some others. Would you like to have chat with me about this so that we can discuss it and we can come to a shared understanding and agreement on what is exploit and what is just clever strategy. I would also like to chat with you about the issues that have troubled the relation between our teams in the past, such as the WW issue. The good news for you is that we do agree with your proposal, but would like to have a more detailed discussion about eventual exception. I believe we can get an agreement on that. After the discussion we will officially state our opinion on this issue. Until we meet again, Regards, Aidun

	11-03-2004 03:45									#314
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And the reply. Whether it is true that they didn't come up with the idea yet is questionable. accroding to his tone it doesn't seem to be a lie, but who knows. Anyway, I'm pondering whether I shall inform them now of our stance, including not trading barracks, or wait for that with chat.

I'm afraid that they will eventually get annoyed when I go in an argument with them through PM.

What do people here think?

Aidun

quote: Well, we are currently discussing city-gifting internally. As in your team, opinions are diverse. I, for one, mean that city gifting should have as few restrictions as possible. As cultural buildings disappear and construction are disturbed the list of further restrictions should be short. Unit-jumping is one of them, and I can think of one, maybe two other cases were city gifting should be restricted. As for the current situation, GWT are indeed planning to build a east-west waterway for our fleets pleasure, we are just using GCA as contractors to build it for us I don't remember anyone suggesting we should continue gifting the cities to allow both teams to use this canal. I'll pass the idea on to my team just in case Seriously, cities getting shuffled around like hot potatoes is not something we want to do. The idea to build Leonardos Workshop and 'share' it with GCA was promptly shot down before it even got out of the hangar. Was there anything you would like to change/clarify about the exception from the teleportation rule BTW? We have to discuss the latest matter before we can meet in a chat but that won't take too long. A couple of days perhaps. _________________ Kriegsminister des Deutschen Webring ISDG2 Teams

	11-03-2004 04:21									#315
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On the topic of gifting cities I asked about Wonders.

Bongo, of GWT, replied:

quote: Anything involving wonders is sort of tricky....but if Poly gifted CGN your Great Wall city and CGN triggered their GA by building a scientific wonder(Great library or newtons) we would cry 'FOUL' very loud indeed. This would be like declaring a phoney war with someones UU just to trigger GA. As for just gifting wonders...why not? Unless it keeps shifting hands so both parties can take advantage of its effect(Leonardos Workshop could be a very nasty example)

So, if we do allow the gifting of cities, with the exception that no gifting will take place with the purpose of teleporting units, then we should gift CGN Tripoli the turn before they are attacked. The Great Wall doubles the effects of walls in cities that have them.

We'd be giving CGN a 100% bonus to their defenses!

The real question about gifting cities is where to draw the line and even if you if you can draw a line? What constitutes "going to far"? If you allow city gifting and the resultant sharing of buildings, resources, and unit movement pathways, then what exatly is the criteria for saying that you can't gift a Wonder away for a certain period of time?

If GWT and GCA think that it's perfectly legit to gift cities for any purpose other than to teleport units, then we should definately gift Tripoli to CGN on the turn before they are attacked and let them keep it a long as we feel that having the Great Wall will help them. I don't think we'd have to be worried that they would not give it back to us upon request or do anything stupid.

	11-03-2004 04:35									#316
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An interesting view.

But then, if you allow wonder sharing, you should allow barracksa and harbor sharing too. Improvements are lesser than wonders.

What is our official government view on this?

Aidun

	11-03-2004 04:36									#317
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Bongo is reasonable and these discussions are starting off well between him and Aidun. Let's keep it up.

My advice on this:

We definately should not take a hardline approach. Let's talk to Bongo (& GWT) about what they feel is fair and is exploitative, come to a concensus, and then come to a mutual agreement that we will not perform such actions nor support anyone who does.

It's hard to say now where to draw the line, but with further discussions we will certainly get a feel for where their line is and if we agree with it.

Communicate some of our team's concerns and see how they feel about them.

Work to an agreement.

--Togas

	11-03-2004 04:55									#318
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Still, my problem is that we have a too diverse atitude on this. Everybody seems to have his own reason why it should be banned or not. Isn't it possible to start a poll on this perhaps a multiple choice one so that you can vote on any option that you think is acceptable. Then I have something to tell them. At least I'm going to make an opinion poll for it.

Aidun

	11-03-2004 06:48									#319
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That sounds reasonable Aidun.

	11-03-2004 07:58									#320
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Feel free to start up a poll. I'm just not sure how we should word the options in it.

--Togas

	11-03-2004 08:10									#321
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A poll is a very good idea on this. Options?

	11-03-2004 19:12									#322
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Gifting Tripoli to CGN is something that hadn't even occurred to me. Nah, I think that one is across my exploit line.

Poll options...

1) So long as there are no unit teleports, city gifting is ok.

2) City gifting is ok, so long as the city is only gifted ONCE (i.e. GCA builds GWT their canal town and transfers ownership... never to get it back).

3) City gifting back and forth is ok, but with some limitation on how often (please specify how many turns you think is reasonable).

4) Screw it, ban all city gifting.

Though these options do not deal with wonder city gifting at all. My personal opinion is that the teams should agree that wonder cities should never be gifted, period. Just ban that specific class of cities outright.

-Arrian

	11-03-2004 21:15									#323
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I think we could add a few more:

- improvement sharing, i.e. barracks and harbors

- wonder sharing

And an eventual additional poll on how many turns between city gifting we set as minimum.

Aidun

	12-03-2004 04:19									#324
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Bongo was in our chat room today, (see the correspondance thread), he didn't have much time, basically asked if we would be around tomorrow, he said he'd bring more people from GWT.

So, stand watch in case the Germans come tomorrow

	12-03-2004 06:09									#325
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Well well, more Germans. I prefer man to man fight if he doesn't mind.

Aidun

	13-03-2004 02:04									#326
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GWT came to chat. WB was there to gett them, but he had to leave. Then I showed and chatted a bit. Then Aidun showed up and that is where we are now.

#ISDGFAMTALKS

	13-03-2004 04:15									#327
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BigFree had a chat with Bongo before I arrived this evening.

quote: [12:44] BigFree: One of the restrictions being touted tight now is that a team would have to hold onto a gifted city for a certain amount of tunrs before it can be re-gifted back to the gifted Civ. [12:44] Preussi: Had to buy plain Civ3 in English, because the german version was released 6 months later [12:45] bongo: Is that why CGN are holding the save? I we just abandonded 'alpha' we cold move over without any concerns at all [12:47] BigFree: I think thats why they are holding it [12:47] bongo: The prospect of a blinking panama canal probably worries them more... [12:48] bongo: I have some problem deciding myself actually, if this just is clever strategy or an exploit.. [12:49] BigFree: It's touchy for me as well [12:50] bongo: I have this feeling that many object it because it is relatively new.. [12:50] BigFree: If the designers had made it so that an RoP allowed you to go through another Civ's cities, then this would be moot; but they did not do it that wya for some reason or another. [12:50] BigFree: Just as SMAC allows it [12:51] BigFree: There are things you can do in C3C that you cant in PTW [12:51] BigFree: So, we are stuck with what PTW rules are [12:52] BigFree: Some may feel that gifting the citiy every turn would consitute the breaking of the rules made by the desginers [12:52] bongo: Or what the game engine allows us to do. The game is so complex that there is no way the disegners had full control over what was and was not intended. [12:53] Preussi: I think they worry about the fact that there is a double use of the resources maybe. Although thatìs silly. [12:53] BigFree: Maybe or maybe not, we cannot guess really. I'd be inclined to play it and accept as the rules, what the game does do or does not do or allow as compared to other games. [12:53] bongo: Not that we would spend the rest of the game playing ping-pong with cities, even 'alpha' is somthing that was not even neccesary [12:54] bongo: If a 'thy must hold on to your gifted cities' rule had been in place we would have disbanded it.. [12:54] BigFree: I dont think the sharing of resources or buildings is a problem for my team all that much. A team would have to hold a city for more than one tunr to reap the benefits of it. [12:55] bongo: Sharing of wonder is a totally different matter....that could be ugly [12:55] BigFree: Would you guys agree to a rule that says you have to hold a city for a predetermined amount of tunrs before it is gifted back? [12:55] Preussi: of course [12:55] bongo: Depends on the length I guess [12:56] BigFree: 3-5 turns seems to be the favorite now. [12:56] bongo: that doesn't sound bad at all [12:56] Preussi: that`s acceptable [12:56] BigFree: Cool [12:56] BigFree: Now, about the Wonders [12:57] bongo: are you holding seperate polls on wonders? [12:57] BigFree: Things like sharing Leo's is wrong [12:57] BigFree: Not a seperate poll for that as of yet, though it is mentioned [12:57] bongo: I think it should have two degrees. [12:58] bongo: Wonders that help someone trigger their GA should be outlawed.... [12:58] BigFree: Even if you held a city for 5 turns, you could have two Civs very efectively using that wonder [12:58] BigFree: I agree with that last one [12:58] bongo: Other wonders should either be permanent gifts or have a very long holding time [12:59] BigFree: I agree there a well

Aidun

	13-03-2004 04:16									#328
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After which I joined:

quote: BigFree: BTW, just so you know, I hold no official position on the team * BigFree sets mode: +o Aidun_bedtime BigFree: There's Aidun, he's the official Ambassador to GWT Aidun_bedtime: Hello Bongo and Preussi bongo: Well, we're ministers but all things have to be approved in polls anyway * Aidun_bedtime is now known as Aidun BigFree: Let me recap for him in our other channel BigFree: we will brb bongo: cool, I'll go downstairs for a cold beer :P Preussi: Hmm, looks like Aidun some kind of neighbour. Are you from the Netherlands (entering via tiscali.nl) ? Aidun: yep Aidun: Wo wohnst du in Deutschland? BigFree: I just read Bongo's self chat up above...very funny BigFree: [11:08] " bongo slaps BigFree|Away around a bit with a large trout " BigFree: [11:10] bongo: Wollen sie den Totalen Krieg?!? BigFree: [11:12] bongo: Ich habe eine Grosse Knackwürst!! BigFree: [11:39] bongo: Og skuta het Skomvær av Porsgrunn by BigFree: [11:42] bongo: Time for a deal then BigFree: [11:43] bongo: How much would you ask for gunpowder? BigFree: [11:43] bongo: 10 gold? BigFree: [11:43] bongo: Hmmm, a bit steep don't you think? BigFree: [11:44] bongo: How about 7 gold then, and a cookie. BigFree: [11:44] bongo: Deal BigFree: [11:50] bongo: about your workers tehn, are those for sale?? BigFree: [11:50] bongo: Dunno, we kind of like our workers.... BigFree: [11:50] bongo: Cookie? BigFree: [11:51] bongo: YES!!! Preussi: Dortmund, also gar nicht so weit weg von der holländischen Grenze. Und selbst ? Aidun: Ich wohne in der nähe von Den Haag, ganz auf die andere Seite Preussi: Habe gestern mein erstes Spiel auf Emperor mit den Niederländern gewonnen. Gute UU Aidun: Die Niederländern sind stark wen man verteitigen muß. Preussi: Das war auch mein Problem. Aidun: Warum solltest du dan verteitigen? Preussi: Ich hatte zwischendurch so im Mittelalter arge Probleme mit den Karthagern (meine Nachbarn zur Linken), als ich im Krieg auf der anderen Seite mit den Arabern war Preussi: Da haben die Swiss Mercenaries doch sehr geholfen, meine Städte zu halten. Immerhin kam da schon Kavallerie von den Karthagern. Preussi: @ Bongo: Are you brewing the beer yourself ? BigFree: HAHA bongo: not at all but I have some wet landry at my hands Aidun: Zwei Kriege auf dasselbe moment ist immer schwierich und dann mußt man viel verteitigen ja. Ich spiele nur auf Monarch, das finde ich einfachlicher weil ich dan nich uber alles denken muß. BigFree: Ok, I'm going to dismiss myself here since I cant read what's going on. See you all later. If you need me just say "BF" Preussi: War auch erst mein 2.Spiel auf Emperor. Du hast wirklich recht, auf Emperor fängt so langsam das Level an, wo man keine Fehler machen darf bongo: hehe, I think we will go on in english when we return to isdg Aidun: I could translate it for you BF Aidun: ;p * BigFree slaps Aidun around with a pink Macintosh Preussi: We can talk also in English. Preussi: lol BigFree: that woiuld be preferable BigFree: thanks Aidun: Toteler Krieg!!! Preussi: We were talkin about our hometowns first and then came over to my first game on Emperor I just won yesterday with the Dutch. Preussi: But back to our topic. Aidun: right bongo: Aidun, are you up to date now? Aidun: Not on matters of your team since your last PM BigFree: Aidun, check the ISDG channel Aidun: lemme see if I received something more bongo: we have been chatting for some minutes when you arrived, I haven't sent you more Aidun: Oh right, thanks BF, Bongo, I'm reading it Aidun: Well, it seems that you have cut most of the grass BF, thanks. Aidun: BigFree: HAHA BigFree: IAt least I didn't cut the cheese Aidun: ok let's make this diplomatic talk a cheesy one bongo: To summarize, gifted cities should be held 3-5 turns, wonders that triggers GA cannot be gifted, other wonder can only be gifted permanently or with a very long holding time Aidun: I agree on that too, but I have no power to approve it. Aidun: There are two things that I think that have to be specified more bongo: Go on BigFree: I would think certain wonders would not need a restriction while some do Aidun: the range of turns, 3-5, which amount will we set as a minimm? Aidun: *minimum bongo: true, cities with empire-wide effects is the ones we're looking at here Aidun: and would you want to restict these or not? bongo: I would be okay with anything in the 3-5 range.. BigFree: I think 5 is what has the most support on our team. bongo: empire-wide is the ones that need restriction bongo: the oracle, lighthouse, the great wall, leos, the pyramids Preussi: sistine, bach Aidun: Bongo, I will poll the team what they prefer more, 3, 4, or 5 bongo: colossus is just affecting that one city... bongo: Try to get a poll deciding bith what i sacceptable and what is preferrable bongo: ?? after two beers??? BigFree: I was think 20 turns for the Wonder restriction; but we have not polled this at all and is just my own opinion. bongo: 20 is a nice round number... Aidun: I think 20 is ok bongo: Oh, is there any way to keep the game going while we decide this? The gifting of alpha had so little impact that it is hard to measure Aidun: that is something that is unfortunately up to CGN and not us BigFree: I think if we can say that we are in agreement that city gifting has these certain restrictions, then we can get CGN to continue. Though, we'd have to ask them. bongo: If it makes people happy we can issue a one-sided statement saying that we will hold any cities for a minimum of 5 turns until an official decicion is made BigFree: I think that may help Aidun: yeah, that would help indeed I think bongo: I think we can talk GCA into this as well, or simply not accept the cities they try to give us BigFree: HAHA Aidun: There is then another issue that was mentioned in the discussion and weighs pretty heavy for many of our members Aidun: Haha bongo: refresh my memory Aidun: Improvement sharing bongo: please explain Preussi: hmmm ? Aidun: Well, there are certain strategies that, especially if we would allow the city trade for movement purposes, in which you could trade a city to quickly heal troops for intance. Aidun: quickly hiding in a gifted city Aidun: How does your team look to that issue? bongo: Ok, now I get it. You can achieve the same with combat settlers * Trip has joined #isdgfamtalks Aidun: yes, but then you have paid for it with two citizens, while the other option is free Aidun: I'm talking about an existing city that is gifted to heal units bongo: Well, you have to have a city first... Preussi: Fortunately this hasnìt happened until now. bongo: There's not much to be gained from it I think... bongo: If you gave your ally a city, and they occupied it...sorry but I still have some problems seeing where the possible exploit is Aidun: Preussi, yes, fortunately is hasn't, but when you have a large wounded fleet passing around the coast and it is suddenly attacked by CGN ships and GCA has a city on the coast, reachable for your ships. You see the dilemma? Preussi: I think we should prohibit it already now before anyone uses this. Aidun: well, people here see the exploit in the fact that you get a free city with a free baracks/harbor. bongo: I don't know. Like all gifting it has a cost.. Aidun: but that cost is much lower than that of building/rushing a barracks or harbor Preussi: @ Aidun. Youìre right. But if we prohibit it now, then there wonìt anyone be lead into temptation. bongo: Let's just suggest that GWT makes an alliance with CFC and sail a fleet to their help...wouldn't it make perfect sense if thay gave us a city as a forward base? BigFree: Yes, thats reasonalbe bongo: I see how it can be a problem, but I also see that it will be very difficult to distinguish it from 'regular' gifting Aidun: that is reasonable in the Real world, but here you don't pay for it Aidun: It is the dilemma that I have personally: in the real world much is possible what is not possible in C3 bongo: why not, wouldn't you let us borrow one of your harbors for a while if we paid in steel to your enemies Aidun: You are pointing on including cities with harbors and barracks in trade deals. bongo: I have to think about this some....there's pros and cons and they are all wearing shades of grey... Aidun: Bongo, true Aidun: Shall we say that we both take it back to our teams with the arguments that have been exchanged by us and meet again to further discuss this for an agreement? bongo: The biggest problem is that is will be difficult to make a clear rule on what is 'normal' gifting and what is exploitative sharing of buildings. bongo: Yeah, we leave the shared buildings for now Aidun: Like you said, there are some pro's and contra's bongo: You asked me about some clarifications on teleportation earlier? Aidun: Ehm, can you help me remember when? * MasterZen has joined #isdgfamtalks * ChanServ sets mode: +o MasterZen bongo: In a pm, you wanted to get some details on the exception on teleporting MasterZen: hello Aidun: one moment, I have to re read what I wrote in it. I've been pretty busy since then Aidun: Hi MZ MasterZen: heya Aidun, hellow fellow Webringians bongo: Guten Abend Trip: btw Trip: we want MZ back Trip: you can't use him to help kill CGN any more :P MasterZen: hahaha BigFree: It's just amazing to see MZ around at all, let alone against CGN. :P MasterZen: they're just jealous because other teams name their units with my name instead of theirs :P Trip: fah, I have cities named after me MasterZen: shaddap and keep mining the hills of Irongard :P bongo: I have 30 Ansars with my entire shopping list on them Aidun: Oh yes, Bongo, I have the point that was made in our forum here: Trip: we have a Knight named Bambi Trip: I'm sure it must be MZ's fault somehow bongo: My favourite Ansar is Ahmed Klapstuhl bongo: aidun, bring it on E_T_bed_then_work: Who??? * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) * Trip` has joined #isdgfamtalks Aidun: I'm writing down the issue in scentences Trip`: seriously now, where did you come up with Sacknasenhausen? :P * E_T_bed_then_work is now known as E_T[shower_then_work] bongo: Why do you think we almost always spend the full 24 hours? Aidun: some of our members can talk in some mathematical way that I can't post here Aidun: too difficult Trip`: weeeird bongo: aidun ? try me... Trip`: I've gotta go Trip`: 'Til lata * Trip` has quit IRC (Quit: ) bongo: Preussi, how did we come up with sacknasenhausen? Preussi: Iìm looking in the history, I got no plan yet. It was before I joined the game. Give me a few minutes to search the records Aidun: Bongo I have it in clear words here now: bongo: Aidun: The situation is like this: two civs are at war with each other and the troops of the attacking civ (A) are before the city of the attacked civ (B). Civ B attempts to destroiy the troops in a preventive attack, some succeed, but most troops fail. Civ A is wanting to not attack them further if Civ B giftes the city to them. So Civ B offers Civ A a peace treaty in which they offer to gift them the city at once. But the problem is now that there were still ytroops in B's city. When it is forbidden to warp those troops back to the capital, the deal would be impossible... Aidun: my English grammar is very bad in this bongo: I'm following you so far Aidun: what do we do about it? allow the warping when it occurs as side effect? bongo: Oh, I didn't get all of it..it is cut in the sentence 'But the problem is now th/' Aidun: But the problem is now that there were still ytroops in B's city. When it is forbidden to warp those troops back to the capital, the deal would be impossible... bongo: Ah, either they would have to walk, or they would have to ask the UN for permission. If they are fighting a two-front war, then another enemy could block it bongo: I can think of only one situation that would warrant an administrator approval against someones vote.. bongo: if a third civ 'C' was involved, and the turn order was such that the city would be empty on Cs turn, then B should be allowed to jump the troops. So A could walk into the city they just got * MasterZen has quit IRC (Quit: must eat) bongo: did that make sense? Aidun: With that I agree too. But when if there are but two civs, and A demands B to immediately gift it, otherwise the war goes on. What is then more important: the option to make peace with the warping as side effect or the prohibition of warping? bongo: If warping is prohibited A will know that their demand cannot be met because of game rules Preussi: Found the history for "Sacknasenhausen". At the time the city was found there was no name for it so the guy who played our turns at that time named it just "New one" (or "Neue" in German). Afterwards he asked the members of our team for names. He called the team members "Sacknasen" because no one answered for a few days and then one member came up with "Sacknasenhausen". Itìs no spectacular explanation, but the history how we came up wit Preussi: Hmm, not history. I meant story Aidun: That is true, Bongo, but that does not solve the dilemma: then you just outlaw it but you dont give an answer and thus the question remains. Aidun: I am only wondering how you think about it * BigFree is away: auto-away after 30m idle * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away bongo: well, jumping is not allowed so units have to leave the city prior to gifting. Some units will then have some serious problems getting home but I prefer that to teleporting any day bongo: No teams can make demands that is impossible due to game-mechanics or rules....well, they can but they will look stupid Aidun: ok, thanks, I will take the answer to the person who mentioned it bongo: I see that I should have added another exception about gifting cities in the front-line. Aidun: I'm listening bongo: Now, the turn order allow us to give front-cities to GCA without CGN ever seeing them empty. GCA cannot give them back thoug, as they will be empty on CGNs turns, unless a jump i allowed bongo: I don't see the need for us to use this in the current game though... Aidun: I guess that is a dilemma like the others: what is more important? bongo: even if we allowed jumping from front-cities, you still had to march those buggers back to the front enough to make any Kriegsminister shudder Aidun: Logistics is the biggest problem in every war Aidun: From Alexander the Great until the Iraq war Aidun: * until=to bongo: true, it only gets worse when you add some allies Aidun: Were there any issues you wanted to discuus with us other than the ones discussed? bongo: MY wife is calling...bet time Aidun: Ah well, that will end the chat then. bongo: hmm, WW is an old favourite but we can cover that some other time Aidun: Let's meet next week then Aidun: or in the weekend bongo: we'll see. We take todays discussion home for review in our forums... Aidun: We'll stay in contact via PM then. bongo: anyone care to send me a log BTW, I haven't found the log option in my irc-client Aidun: I will bongo: Great Aidun: what is the adress? bongo: ISDG@gmx.de bongo: our team address Aidun: ok I will send it to there Preussi: @ Bongo: Options Preussi: Not Options. Tools. There is a menu called Log files. Itìs the one thatìs named ISDGfamtalks. Preussi: Found it ? bongo: Can't find it...maybe we have different versions...well bongo: Goodnight to all then It has ben a pleasure Aidun: I can't find in my version either and I have 6.03 bongo: maybe we have to register... bongo: bye then Aidun: Gute Nacht Preussi: Gute Nacht @ all Aidun: it was a pleasure for me too * Preussi has quit IRC (Quit: I was using mIRC for StarChat.) * bongo has quit IRC (Quit: )

Aidun