01-09-2003 12:28									#1
	FA: Webring Diplomacy Thread Tired of ads?

Please use this thread to discuss issues with the German Webring Team (GWT).

Preliminary issues:

Ambassador to the Webring team needs to be assigned. I have someone in mind, however, I would also appreciate any volunteers to send me a PM if you are interested. I am very interested in getting someone who has the same hours online as the GWT (a European Poly member), and if you speak German, all the better.

Issues:

1) How much do we tell them/sell them?

They are going to want contacts and WMs. They can get both on their own, but we should consider a potential sale of contact with CFC. We do not want them to get contact with GCA, nor do we want them to get our WM unless, of course, we can keep them from circling our continent and meeting GCA.

If they get contact with GCA, GCA could sell their soul to the Germans for tech. We do not want to fight GCA with pikes.

2) NAP agreement?

If we do, we cannot effectively keep them out of our business unless we get a good border treaty as well, and even with one, our cultural borders really don't prohibit their travel in "our waters"

If we do not sign one, we can threaten them out of our GCA business, but it will seriously damage future relations.

3) Tech treaty?

We have Feudalism, but we won't have the advantage for long. We schemed our way to that tech, however, GWT doesn't know that. They may believe we are superior in science and may be very interested in future trades with us.

We can lock down Eng for X now, and after that? Thoughts? Should we dare to help them in the process?

4) Power politics/Alliances

We need to learn quickly how the power politics of their world work out, and they will want to know about ours. We need information to let us know how close we should get with these guys. My instincts tell me that we should get close to them even if we eventually plan their demise. The closer we get the more we know and the safer we are, however, getting close is a double-edged sword as they can learn quite a bit from us and are "invited" into our world and our problems.

5) Choice of Ambassador.

I'll be frank, I have Arnelos lined up for the next "job" however, I am having second thoughts about this. I'd much prefer to give the Germans someone they know, admire, and feel close to. Arnelos's role on the RP team in the PTWDG gives him a signifigant handicap that a fellow like Master Zen wouldn't have. While I hate to consider such things in this decision it is a fact that the Germans probably have preestablished opinions about different people on our team. I'd like to hook them up with someone they really like.


Please post your thoughts, questions, and ideas on any of these issues. Let the discussion begin.

--Togas

	01-09-2003 12:39									#2
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While I hate to consider such things in this decision

Personalities have everything to do with it. I would make a verrrrry bad ambassador to these people even were I good at it to begin with, for the simple fact that they would be ill disposed to me off the bat.

We win, then we look after the other bases.

Arne will make a great ambassador to CGN. That will be a great challenge for him.

	01-09-2003 12:56									#3
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Agreed about having to consider personalities - that's part of the game (and a MAJOR part!) as everything else is. Using preferrably a GoW member for the GWT ambassador post is a wise idea.

	01-09-2003 13:49									#4
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I believe we should try to trade contact with CFC for contact with CGN. CGN and GWT are the two big players on the other continent and we need to have contact with them. Grenouille and Firaxis will soon be dead.

	01-09-2003 13:54									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I believe we should try to trade contact with CFC for contact with CGN. CGN and GWT are the two big players on the other continent and we need to have contact with them. Grenouille and Firaxis will soon be dead.

Agreed.

--Togas

	01-09-2003 15:14									#6
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they won't go for that, if they're smart, they'll want to preserve the advantage they have over cgn

this is however a huge advantage in getting contact with them first, we can tell a very slanted side of the story so far to them, and getting them on our side will be alot easier .

	01-09-2003 15:20									#7
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Another thing. We should be quick to set up a deal involving Feudalism. GWT could easily trade Republic to CFC for it if we don't cover all our bases before they get contact.

	01-09-2003 15:26									#8
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I think the first priority should be preventing them trading with gca at all, we could even go as far as gifting them engineering for no deals with gca

	01-09-2003 15:27									#9
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They're a loooooooooong ways away from GCA. The decisive point in the war ought to be reached before GWT could attain contact with GCA.

	01-09-2003 15:44									#10
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NOt that MZ needs anyone to vouch for him... but he would be perfect for the job.

Using a GoW contact is very smart.

One thing from the PTWDG ... GoW found ND to be very easy to deal with once we gained their trust.
We did this by giving them a tech now for a tech later deal.
ND were quite surprised we would do that, and we have never looked back. And I should point out.. this all happened while GoW still had plans to make RP our best friends

So... Gain their trust, and we can look forward to an excellent diplomatic relationship. ND are straight shooters. They say what they mean, and usually follow through.

Regs

	01-09-2003 15:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel So... Gain their trust, and we can look forward to an excellent diplomatic relationship. ND are straight shooters. They say what they mean, and usually follow through.

Yes, exactly. If they promise something, they will follow through no matter what the cost or obligation required (except for one time when Lux negotiated a border treaty with them ).

Earn their trust, get on their good side, and look forward to a fruitful partnership.

	01-09-2003 18:37									#12
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I think Arnelos would be a very good candidate for the ambassador for CGN, and as we will probably gain contact with CGN pretty quickly he will not have to wait too long

I agree it is a very good thing to let someone the Germans like be ambassador with them. As I understand there are some Germans from the team Neu Demogyptica also represented in the GWT team? Then it would be nice if we could find a, preferably European, member of that team who would be willing to take the job.

I just wanted to let you know I am willing to take the job if we could find no such person, although my German is not so great. (I can understand German quite reasonably, but writing in German is rather tough for me) I heard people talking about finding the right personality; I think the nation where someone comes from is also important. A german would be perfect of course , but I would suggest we do not let someone from France or the USA be ambassador, just to prevent them being ill disposed to our ambassador right from the start.

Kind Regards from Holland ,
Tarquinius

	01-09-2003 19:52									#13
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Did Ralphie leave us for the germans?

if so, wonder how active he is, and wonder if that will have much if any impact on anything.

	01-09-2003 20:20									#14
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Sir Ralph mentioned that he is not very active on that team. That may change a bit now that we have contact.

I think the last thing we want to have happen is let GCA profit from contact with GWT, either through Feudalism or in some other fashion. We need to make sure this does not happen within the next 15-20 turns at least.

Therefore, we need to:

1. Make sure CFC is in our pocket. This was true before, but it's crucial now. If CFC will do anything to avoid confrontation with GCA, we'll essentially have lost our aces (contact with GWT, Feudalism, etc.).

2. Make sure the GWT Galley goes North instead of South. This is tricky, and I'm not sure what more we can do to accomplish this.

3. Make sure GCA has not built any Galley of its own that could contact the GWT one. It's a lot to ask to keep a lookout on every GCA coastal city, but we can do better by keeping a lookout along the southern tip of CFC lands. They could not get by us unseen.

4. Make sure we do not give away contacts, no matter how sweet the deal (not to mention our World Map). I honestly cannot imagine any realistic deal from GWT that we should accept and jeopardize our chances with GCA militarily.


Dominae

	01-09-2003 21:06									#15
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Has Anyone done any figuring of tech prices yet, too see what they already have?

If we can trade RIGHT NOW, Feudalism for Either Monotheism or Engineering. We need to set up this trade before GWT has any chance of making contact with CFC.

Also, do we want to try to have a timed No Trade Agreement with them for Fuedalism??

E_T

	01-09-2003 23:59									#16
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Interesting and useful tidbit of info:

GWT has Engineering.

	02-09-2003 00:02									#17
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What do they NOT have?

	02-09-2003 00:03									#18
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They don't have Monotheism or Feudalism.

	02-09-2003 00:06									#19
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I sense a trade brewing...


Dominae

	02-09-2003 00:08									#20
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Oh, they also don't have Monarchy, for what that's worth.

	02-09-2003 00:37									#21
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For those curious, this is what GWT will be able to see of us next turn:

	02-09-2003 01:25									#22
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Ok, first of all I will gladly accept amabassorship to GWT, they are very easy to deal with and I get along with many of them especially Darekill, Borc and Zayxus. And I can speak a bit of German too (not TOO much though...)

I do agree that someone who is friendly to them is the best choice. For that other "biggie" civ (CGN), I think Arnelos would make an excellent choice also considering that it might be the most important and difficult ambassor possition our team will require.

So, I have drafted a greeting note, which also included the possibility of the tech trade which we need to secure ASAP. Here it is:

quote: Greetings from the land of Apolyton! We are most surprised and pleased to have found ships belonging to your great nation in the past turn. This historic event, the contact of the two continents is surely to be remembered as one of the most important and exciting moments of the game. That this contact is among our peoples opens up the posibility of a long and lasting relationship, based on trust, cooperation and above all friendship. There is much our two civilizations have to offer each other, and for this reason Apolyton would like to begin preliminary talks for a technological and contact trade. This could involve a trade of Feudalism for perhaps Engineering, as well as contact with Civilization Fanatics Center and Civilization Gaming Network if possible. Now that our nations have met, do not hesitate to contact us for whatever matters your nation deems necessary. I, Master Zen, am the Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton and also from now on your official Ambassador. Feel free to contact me at any time via PM or e-mail. Our Foreign Affairs Minsiter, Togas, is also available for consultation as well as our three Consuls who are notyoueither, MrWhereItsAt and BigFree. For our part, we would like hear your team's opinion on these preliminary trade deals so as to make a more formal and detailed offer later. In the meantime we wish luck to your exploration efforts and await your response. -Master Zen Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister Apolyton

Finally, apologies for my semi-absence during the past weeks. I had to go out and do a lot of surveying for my thesis, then was without a PC for a few days, and last week my mom came to visit for the week which means I couldn't be on the computer all day since I only see her once or twice a year. But, now I'm back to normal.

Please correct or give the ok so I can send it to GWT soon.

	02-09-2003 01:34									#23
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Just a minor issue, I think it would be better to say "make a more formal and detailed offer soon" than "make a more formal and detailed offer later" in the last paragraph.

	02-09-2003 02:04									#24
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I agree that I'd make a lousy ambassador to ND because of my position on the Roleplay Team. Granted, I have never conducted negotiations with ND at any point in RP history (that job was always done by History Guy and Togas, mostly, if I recall correctly) and so I've had almost no contact with ND whatsoever, but there's still guilt by association

Speaking of guilt by association, the fact that MZ is our ambassador and they get along with MZ is good, but Togas is still the FAM and they know that. Good luck, MZ

As for CGN, I definately agree that that will be a challenge. They seem to have some form of resentment for Apolyton that I confess I do not understand. The fact that they've probably never heard of me before is then I suppose something of an asset if they hate any particular familiar names on poly.

I'd appreciate hearing anything anyone knows about what (precisely) the CGN resentment toward Apolyton is based on and how anyone might suggest we can difuse that or at least make it as irrelevant as possible to this game itself.

	02-09-2003 02:49									#25
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Honestly Arnelos, I don't know the reason why they have a grudge with us, and everybody I know doesn't know either, but I have just PMed two people who just might have the answer...

I'll keep you guys posted.

	02-09-2003 03:37									#26
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Many people who are not entirely happy with how Poly runs congregate there. They still post here a bit, but they will definitely want to mount Poly's head on their mantle. At least, that is what I would assume.

	02-09-2003 04:54									#27
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Trip, one comment on the screenshot: they will see a little more... if you hit Ctrl+M, the FoW disappears, and you can normally tell what terrain lies beneath the first row of tiles. Of course, you won't see improvements nor cities, but they can see a it of plains, grass and desert.

Oh, the same works both ways, of course, by looking at the map with Ctrl+M, it should be possible to make out a bit more terrain around their capital as well. Might give a clue where those cities are

DeepO

	02-09-2003 05:01									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Trip, one comment on the screenshot: they will see a little more... if you hit Ctrl+M, the FoW disappears, and you can normally tell what terrain lies beneath the first row of tiles. Of course, you won't see improvements nor cities, but they can see a it of plains, grass and desert. Oh, the same works both ways, of course, by looking at the map with Ctrl+M, it should be possible to make out a bit more terrain around their capital as well. Might give a clue where those cities are DeepO

Well, yes. I was thinking about adding another image showing just the terrain but I decided not to since people can check the terrain pretty easily by themselves.

	02-09-2003 05:02									#29
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not those who don't want to look at the save

DeepO

	02-09-2003 05:04									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO not those who don't want to look at the save DeepO

Anyone who is curious enough to wonder what terrain of ours GWT can see can afford to spend the effort to check for themselves.