02-01-2004 04:46									#271
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bongo from GWT is in the #isdgfamtalks room right now.

E_T

	02-01-2004 05:32									#272
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Bongo must be related to Goonie....

He says that APO can't expect a Naval ROP with them just because they want to spend only "one turn" in our waters. And you guys thought they were going to be reasonable.

Let's get out our whooping sticks...

	02-01-2004 12:03									#273
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First of all I will be as blunt as some of you in the chat were:

THIS CHAT WAS A TOTAL DISASTER

WHY was the GCA issue even BROUGHT UP at all with GWT? Who gives a rat's ass if they support GCA on it, it's obvious that they do, why did you all spend so much time arguing over such a silly issue and not talk enough about the naval RoP? I can't believe I see people talking about "pursuing a better relationship" with GWT and when we finally get a chance to talk them all we do is corner them with something totally irrelevant and likely alienate them even more.

Bad, people, very bad. This is one of the most disastrous chats I have yet read in this game, disastrous because what was argued had absolutely no reason to be argued and no-one had the common sense to get what we wanted out of it.

	02-01-2004 12:13									#274
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GWT is going to be a very difficult team to do diplomacy with, and we need to be far more careful with them next time. This last chat didn't score any points, and may or may not have made any progress.

First, a few notes:

1) After I left I asked NYE to take over. Only NYE should have spoken to Bongo (or whomever he asks to step in). NEVER intentional divert the conversation and try to have two different conversations at once.

We need to give up on the idea of telling GWT "our side of the story." They won't listen if we stuff it down their throat and they'll take it as a lot of excuses and lies if we push it on them. We have to slowly massage relations until they ask on their own for our side of the story. If they never ask, we never tell, period, as it will only sidetrack our objectives at this point.

2) We must supress our desire to argue and disagree with GWT. Right now our goal must be to find common ground, to seek out common interests, and to create some value in a relationship with Poly. We also need to create an atmosophere where their ambassadors or visitors will not feel attacked if they come into our chatroom.

We need to supress our hostile attitude towards GWT. Ignore their obviously stupid diplomacy and their likely hostile attitude towards us. If we want to thaw them (and we do), we are going to have to suck it up.

3) Those who can't stomach this should not idle in the diplomacy channel. We don't need to continue the cold war, we need to thaw it out. I have had this problem myself in the past, there are some people I just can't chat with without going ballistic, if you cannot fully reign in your emotions, please let the diplomats talk.

THE AGENDA:

Bongo is their MOW, we need to chat with their ambassador, and chat with him in a friendly and postive fashion, not in a confrontational tone. What we need to imply to GWT is that Apolyton is interested in future trade deals with CGN and GWT and would like to buy/sell tech, as well as luxuries in the near future. We'd like to repair relations with GWT and "meet them half way" at building a profitable relationship for both of us.

We are going to have to first convince their ambassador that each of us needs to convince our teams to give a little -- starting with little things like a naval ROP and moving to bigger things like the GCA issue.

Once we build up some rapport on the little details we take baby steps until they are open to hearing our side of the GCA war.

In the mean time we fight the issue in the UN without calling GWT cheaters or jerks or whatnot. Do not think that GWT has forgotten the last time our team insulted them at the UN. We need to demonstrate a more civil and polite attitude.

It is likely that we'll win on the WW issue in the UN, from that point, we'll have to decide if we need to talk to GWT any further about GCA, or if we can both let it go, for now.

We agreed to a tech embargo against them but under no circumstances do we bring that up. We just inform them that, sadly, we already have a tech deal in place for whatever tech they're offering, and tell them that if they'd talked to us sooner, we would have been happy to make a deal with them.

We need them to recognize and appreciate that their silence and their animosity towards Apolyton has hurt them. When they make that realization their tone will change and we will then be able to move towards relationship building.

We desperately need to not let them recognize that Apolyton hates them and plans to embargo them. We must mask our true emotions and our true agenda.

Above all else please allow us diplomats to handle this very delicate situation.

--Togas

	02-01-2004 12:19									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We need to supress our hostile attitude towards GWT. Ignore their obviously stupid diplomacy and their likely hostile attitude towards us. If we want to thaw them (and we do), we are going to have to suck it up.

Pay heed anyone who ever is in chat with GWT. What happened today should not be repeated. Everyone makes mistakes but only fools make it twice.

quote: 3) Those who can't stomach this should not idle in the diplomacy channel. We don't need to continue the cold war, we need to thaw it out. I have had this problem myself in the past, there are some people I just can't chat with without going ballistic, if you cannot fully reign in your emotions, please let the diplomats talk.

And if there are NO diplomats (i.e. Togas or myself) simply tell them "sorry, our FAM is not available at the moment, please come back later or PM them"

quote: In the mean time we fight the issue in the UN without calling GWT cheaters or jerks or whatnot. Do not think that GWT has forgotten the last time our team insulted them at the UN. We need to demonstrate a more civil and polite attitude.

There is absolutely no need to argue it at all. 5 votes, 3 will be in our favor. It's a debate we will WIN and it will be GCA and to a lesser extent GWT who will have to suck it up.

quote: Above all else please allow us diplomats to handle this very delicate situation. --Togas

Let's see if we can thaw things up with our friend Iron Jackson.

	02-01-2004 13:34									#276
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MZ: I have had enough of your 'I'm the professional Diplomat!' crap. You seem to think you're the only one who can ever do it just right. Your name calling has returned in full force; I was emarassed for you to read it.

Tell me, what is it you think you can possibly get out of GWT with the very best of relations existing between us keeping in mind the prior commintments we have towards other teams?

I'll tell you that your expectations are not only too high, they are impossible at this point and it's not worth our time or energy to try to gain anything through Diplomacy with GWT or GCA. How many times do I have to say it before it becomes clear to you that it's GCA/GWT versus CGN/(APO&CFC)? No amount of diplo banter is going to change that, none at all. The lines were starting to be drawn when we accepted the embargo against GWT...it was sealed when GWT gave refuge to GCA. End of story.

Togas: I understand your desire to try to salvage something from this....But what exactly are your goals in this venture? What can we reasonably expect from GWT? How far are you willing to go to make GWT 'like' us? I say that we have step over backwards for long enough for either of these teams. It's time to stop the chit chat and get to playing the game. If we have issues with game exploits then we take it to the UN. If we have issues with another Civ's actions that are not an issue for the UN, then we take action ourselves, in-game, and recitfy it.

One last thought for MZ: Get off your High Horse!

	02-01-2004 17:19									#277
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Bongo must be related to Goonie....

No he isn't, he's a stable, clear thinking grown up who just happens to disagree with you. I don't think that chat was a total disaster it just kinda sucked alot and wasn't constuctive.

On the 2 issues of galley and GCA they disagree with us but the justification for their attitude seems valid from their point of view.

You shouldn't really corner people or gang up on them like happened there. Also trying to convince people by telling them how things are or making grand statments never works.

1 on 1 maybe a good idea if there is more discussions or just 1 person talking, perhaps if we were to ask of someway for us to contact them rather than getting them to come to our territory.

As GWT are unlikley to change their minds about the WW thing it should be damage limitation, focusing on the fact that it is to be banned in the 2nd game just saying stuff like sorry we disagree on this... would be best. Maintaining class and dignity is important.

With the galley thing, like Bongo said a naval ROP is a big deal when they only want to stop in our waters for one turn, just let them without asking for anything back.

Over the GCA thing, from now on I think the reason we went to war with them should be because they were re-loading not because it was best for us. Kinda like a crusade for the good of the game. And this is the story we should tell GWT if and ony if they ask why we attacked them.
Simply approaching GWT ourselves and telling our side will not do any good. Saying things like GWT would have done the same thing if they were in our shoes or in the same situation, does.

	03-01-2004 00:59									#278
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Apolyton needs to have one policy and one voice when doing foreign affairs and when dealing with ambassadors from other teams. Master Zen and I see eye-to-eye on this and while the internal debate may continue on our goals and objectives with the other teams, there must remain one common policy and attitude.

I have posted this policy in the foreign affairs ministry thread. If you do not or cannot abide by it, do not speak to diplomats and ambassadors of other nations.

--Togas

	03-01-2004 02:21									#279
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I'm comfortable with handing over all Apolyton-GWT negotiation to one agreed spokesman on each side. We need to identify the proper GWT spokesman, ideally someone who is a diplomat, and match then with Master Zen. The rest of us can comment and provide instruction, advice, or comment in private channels.

I'm willing to abide by that. Master Zen, you now have your work cut out for you.

	03-01-2004 05:28									#280
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I guess more then one person thinks I screwed up. I didn't think I was screwing up. There were points I would have prefered to bash my monitor with my key board when faced with 'well, it may be an exploit, but it's you guys who are screwed, hehe'.

I tried to communicate that Apolyton takes this issue extremely seriously, and why we do so. While typing, I tried to keep in mind the impression created in the people of GWT when they read the log. I wanted them to know in no uncertain terms that their harbouring of GCA, TOGETHER with their support for the exploit, would have significant reprecussions. I did not want them to be under any delusions that they might skate on the issue.

I know I slipped once when I said 'well, duh', but in the end we agreed to disagree. I felt we parted on decent terms. Am I wrong?

Also, I agree not to talk with other teams unless I have the go ahead from the FAM, which is the way I have always tried to do things. There may be times however, when a Consul may have to step up to fill a vacuum (this was not one of those cases though).

	03-01-2004 09:06									#281
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nye, that's exactly why we shouldn't argue about the exploit thing. We know very well that they will argue their asses off in favor of GCA and we know that its an exploit but all we gain by continuing arguing that is not only pissing them off but pissing ourselves off since it feels like talking with a brick wall (which in a sense it is since they will not budge). Our satisfaction is in knowing that we have the moral high ground and that a UN vote is likely to favor us.

I do not know who we will be contacting most with, Iron Jackson, Bongo or whoever but I do feel we were a bit too virulent for this first chat, I understand nye completely as things at the moment don't often sound as harsh as they really are and we are all bound to get a bit overboard and only realize it in retrospective.

Well, hopefully the whole GCA issue will be solved soon at the UN and we can move on to better things with GWT.

	10-01-2004 12:31									#282
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Guess who dropped by uninvited:



Comments on what we should do?

Clearly, we should "visit" inside their borders. I don't think we should attack their Galley, but we need to follow it so that if they attack us first, we can return the favor and not have WW issues of our own.

--Togas

	10-01-2004 12:35									#283
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Perhaps start with something along the lines of a strongly worded question of why they violated our borders when their was no ROP in place and after we were so heatedly asked to leave their territory.

Second, I also agree with NYE in the turn thread that we ought to send Princess on up through their territory. If they complain and attack us...mmm, a happiness boost, what a bummer.

	10-01-2004 12:54									#284
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I can't believe they killed that Barb Galley! Actually, the Barb Galley attacked them and they survived, but jeeze, I thought they would be dead meat!

	10-01-2004 13:13									#285
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This works out better for us BF. Now we get to see their entire hidden coastline and perhaps a happiness bonus. The only threat is if they're able to use 2 or 3 Galleys to completely block our passage. However, I doubt they have that many Galleys floating around back there. But we shall see soon enough.

	10-01-2004 14:19									#286
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I suggest we say nothing and just sail.

When they scream, ignore them. Sail on.

Move Seeker ahead of them, have Hunter follow.

They can start the war and give us the happy boost anytime they want. Afterall, we are holding a hostage...

We'll also finally get a look at that area North of us.

	10-01-2004 14:28									#287
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Possibly Trip, unless, like you said, they have many Galleys, maybe some of GCA's, to block us and force us out to sea in order to pass. Either way, screw them (like I've been saying all along); the time to stop putting up with them is now.

	10-01-2004 15:27									#288
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Agreed, let's return the favour.

	10-01-2004 15:37									#289
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I can't believe they killed that Barb Galley! Actually, the Barb Galley attacked them and they survived, but jeeze, I thought they would be dead meat!

Is that for certain? Barb galleys behave erratic, it could also be that the barb just ran away and is going to return next turn.

DeepO

	10-01-2004 22:20									#290
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First thing we'll do is sail a galley 8,8 from incensity. That will irritate tehm and force them to go only 2 tiles.

Aggie

	11-01-2004 00:19									#291
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Is that for certain? Barb galleys behave erratic, it could also be that the barb just ran away and is going to return next turn. DeepO

The Barb Galley was at the location marked "BARB." That Galley could have moved only so many tiles away; all of which are in our view. We know the GWT goes last in the turn and that the Barbs then move after they hit 'end turn'. GWT can only move 3 tiles at a time with their Galley, which takes them to just outside Insencity. The only conclusion is that the Barb Galley attacked and lost to the GWT Galley.

	11-01-2004 00:36									#292
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Aha... thanks BF, we can see more coast then I expected.

DeepO

	11-01-2004 00:52									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie First thing we'll do is sail a galley 8,8 from incensity. That will irritate tehm and force them to go only 2 tiles. Aggie

[Beavis voice]
hehe..hehe..irritate them...hehe..YES!
[/Beavis voice]

	11-01-2004 01:42									#294
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Would be great to maneuver them into a position where they could only move a space or face ending in sea. Would take more than 2 galleys to pin them into one square. Would love to hold that galley hostage.

	15-02-2004 03:13									#295
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Have we heard a peep from these guys, or are they just intending to start an argument at the UN?

	15-02-2004 03:36									#296
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I think they may whine to mongoose, but that's about the extent of it. I'm just LMAO thinking about their argument. They are definately kicking themselves in the pants for the rescue of GCA.

	15-02-2004 03:42									#297
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Have we heard a peep from these guys, or are they just intending to start an argument at the UN?

Nope. My guess is they're going to start a stink at the UN, but they really have no room to complain after they jumped GCA's entire army across the world and saving them from extinction...

	15-02-2004 04:05									#298
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If they want to suggest that unit warping should be illegalized (which it should!), we can always suggest that GCA should be dead right now rather than sitting with their entire army safely tromping about helping GWT destroy CGN.

If they want to get into a discussion about making up for that... we can always start a discussion about GCA resigning from the game in return for CGN going back and changing their military strategy (not cutting their own roads and then unit warping but instead just straight-out retreating).

I doubt they'll go for that, so perhaps we'll settle for making unit warping illegal in the future (as it should be).

	15-02-2004 08:11									#299
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GCA's warping has already caused us irreparable damage due to so many turns of WW. If we are going to make warping illegal (and I agree also) we STILL have to argue that we accept nothing less than GCA's resignation.

	07-03-2004 19:13									#300
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I have contacted Bongo as friendly as I can, this is my PM:

quote: Dear Bongo, It's been a while since our teams had contact, but we think that it is now a good time to reestablish contact. In the past our teams have had a troublesome relationship for many reasons, but the consuls of Apolyton would now for once and for all put this behind us and build up a friendly relationship with your team. For this reason I have been appointed as new ambassador to your team. To establish this new friendly and peaceful relationship with you, I think we need to solve some issues of the past first. Therefore I ask you if there is anything that you think that should be solved first before we continue? Please let me know it so that I can do whatever is in my power to solve it. I have heard that we are living in the same time zone, so I hope you one of your team members might be able to join in chats with me. You can find me nearly daily in the Apolytonian embassy: #isdgfamtalks on the Apolyton server. You can also contact me by PM on this forum or Apolyton. I hope to hear from you soon. With kindest regards, Aidun Apolytonian ambassador to GWT