30-12-2003 08:10									#241
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I would rather we use the opportunity to open broader discussions with them. Sound them out on a number of things, among them the sheltering of a civ who has declared its intent to screw us with WW. Can we suggest that better relations would be welcome, but we see GCA's attitude to be an impediment to that?

We've already agreed to a tech embargo with them. What do we do when they ask for tech trading? Or maybe even assistance or assurances against CGN?

What do we actually have to gain from pursuing peace with them?

	30-12-2003 08:12									#242
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree From game to game, yes, but, this is the same game, no?

Do you want feelings to affect things or not? Same or different games it doesn't matter.

I just think you're a sore loser. Or maybe you should find new people to play against.

	30-12-2003 08:56									#243
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I think we have nothing to lose by seeking to thaw relations with GWT. We could gain some.

That is my point.

	30-12-2003 09:39									#244
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Who knows how the tide will turn on the other continent. It won't hurt us to open a dialogue with them, just in case. It might be a way, as someone else suggested, to remove the GCA problem.

	30-12-2003 11:06									#245
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Friendly behavior and attitude ALWAYS helps. I have no problem dialoguing with GWT, as I'd really like to know what their thoughts are about GCA and CGN and a number of other topics. While I doubt they'll say much (they never do), this new guy may be a bit more forthcoming.

--Togas

	30-12-2003 11:24									#246
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree HAHA They did not allow it before because there was nothing to be gained by it. Now they have an interest.

And so do we.

quote: So now we are once again cowtowing to another Civ....

ah so getting a mutual RoP is cowtowing? I see your definition of firm diplomacy is saying NO to everything.

quote: MZ: Don't do anything unitl the Consuls say to do so. (Sorry Togas, this is important)

Sorry BF, overruled

	30-12-2003 11:26									#247
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think we have nothing to lose by seeking to thaw relations with GWT. We could gain some. That is my point.

We could gain some but it will be VERY tricky as we risk pissing them off even more if it ends up to be so apparent that we are behind CGN. I will simply respond with a naval RoP proposition and see where that gets us.

	30-12-2003 12:36									#248
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They would be surprised that we are closer to CGN after not hearing from them for so long? As for tech trades, 'we are sorry, we are researching tech a and are under contract already for b and c. We look forward to better contact so that we may possibly arrange trades in the future'.

I have a feeling that their queery to us has more to do with sounding us out than anything else. If GWT wished to continue as they have been, they would simply have moved through and dared us to do something about it.

No, I think that something else may be up. Prolonged contact with Lucky could have them second guessing some of their assumptions made after early reports of us being back-stabbing bastards. Maybe now it is dawning on them why so many of us would have been so willing to break that treaty.

I really think we should pursue this.

	30-12-2003 13:08									#249
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Tell them something along the lines of:

"Last time, when we asked to pass through your territory, you refused. Our people feel that because of this, we must do the same. But, our government wants to keep an open mind and discuss the matter. Can you enlighten us on why the situation has changed? Maybe we can work something out."

Let them come up with information! And as Togas said:

quote: Friendly behavior and attitude ALWAYS helps

edit: please take more than 9 hours to discuss these matters.

	30-12-2003 23:29									#250
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Perhaps we could also add that their putting pressure on GCA to make peace would be looked upon favorably by us and could have rewards.

Also I know this sounds insane, but since they are within a turn or 2 of chivilary could we say"We'll agree to a Maritime ROP and give you Chivilary if you eliminate GCA. This would both show a willingness to work with GWT and also remove a real pain in A@#. 1 or 2 turns earlier to Chivilary makes little difference, but could help relations a ton. It possible that we could even get a map etc from this. Yes we have a no trade clause with our ally, but this might be acceptable even to them since a map that we would get or deiscover would assist them in planning either suicide raids to raze key cities or in just estimating the enemy strength.

Aggie

	31-12-2003 00:39									#251
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We can't give them Chiv according to our agreement with CGN. Otherwise I would love for them to turn on GCA.

	31-12-2003 00:39									#252
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Proposed message to GWT:

quote: Hello Iron Jackson, In order to allow passage of GWT ships, our team feels that GWT must correspond by allowing passage of our own. Many turns ago, our ship the AIS Princess of Apolyton was denied passage through GWT land, we then offered a mutual Naval Right of Passage which was also refused. We are more than willing to put the issue back on the table: a Mutual Naval Right of Passage which can allow ships of GWT and Apolyton to freely pass through their territories (without landing any units of course). If GWT accepts this, so will Apolyton. Best regards, -Master Zen Ambassador

	31-12-2003 00:45									#253
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It would be great if GWT snuffed GCA. I doubt they will, but perhaps we should at least try to get GWT to pressure GCA to make peace with us. It would take some fancy diplo footwork, but I think a veiled threat is in order ("The Apolyton FAM would like to work with GWT on issues such as a naval RoP, but it is difficult for us to do so when GWT is harboring our enemy who refuses to make peace with us - threatening us with indefinite war." Or something like that).

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 00:48									#254
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Yes, add in what Arrian said.

	31-12-2003 00:51									#255
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Still, I would like some explanation from them regarding the refusal of passage.

	31-12-2003 02:03									#256
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I'd like to know why the FAM is ignoring the potential to get more out of this than a passage for the PoA.

	31-12-2003 02:08									#257
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What do we do if GWT refuses to reign in GCA at our request?

What do we do if after hearing about our previous deals and no-trade clauses, GWT asks for future tech trade considerations? (taking into account our embargo)

	31-12-2003 02:25									#258
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If GWT tells us to stuff it, so be it. We then have the option of backing up to a straight RoP deal, or simply saying no to their request to move their ship through out waters (of course, if they do move through anyway, do we really want to declare war to sink a galley?).

For future tech trading, we can simply say it's too soon to discuss things so far down the road (stall).

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 03:05									#259
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I would rather we use the opportunity to open broader discussions with them. Sound them out on a number of things, among them the sheltering of a civ who has declared its intent to screw us with WW. Can we suggest that better relations would be welcome, but we see GCA's attitude to be an impediment to that?

This is my take as well, though I wonder why MZ jumped the gun on a simple request before all of us were online (in a 12-hour period) to comment. Oh well, it will suffice.

	31-12-2003 04:12									#260
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MZ has not sent a message as of yet. It was just a "proposed" message AFAIK.

	31-12-2003 09:00									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This is my take as well, though I wonder why MZ jumped the gun on a simple request before all of us were online (in a 12-hour period) to comment. Oh well, it will suffice.

Did I send it yet?

Unlike nye, I am rather reluctant to open up possibilities out of the blue, precisely for the reasons Trip mentioned. I would like to hear their response to this particular proposal to see how willing, how friendly and how potentially cooperative they seem. When we see their response we can more adecuately prepare on what level to commence dealing and bring up the GCA issue like Arrian mentioned.

That is why I am hesitant to add more to this but if the consuls want something else added then please propose something.

-MZ

	31-12-2003 16:58									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Did I send it yet? Unlike nye, I am rather reluctant to open up possibilities out of the blue, precisely for the reasons Trip mentioned. I would like to hear their response to this particular proposal to see how willing, how friendly and how potentially cooperative they seem. When we see their response we can more adecuately prepare on what level to commence dealing and bring up the GCA issue like Arrian mentioned. That is why I am hesitant to add more to this but if the consuls want something else added then please propose something. -MZ

I think MZ is on the right track here. Send the mesage about NavROP and see what the response is. That will gide us in dealing with further issues such as GCA. Any techs they start talking about in he near term we just stall on.

	31-12-2003 23:18									#263
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quote: Hi Bigfree! I´m the ambassador of the GWT in the ISDG II. I´ve sent Master Zen a PM at Apo with a request concerning a short stop inside your coastal territory near Incensity, but he´s either not checking his PMs or he has taken it as spam because I got no answer yet. Can you ask him to look for it ? Regards Iron Jackson

Hello Iron Jackson

MZ has recieved your message. We are currently putting together a response to it. The hollidays has slowed things down a bit. You should get an official response shortly.


========================================


HAHA!!! He thinks we are ignoring them now! OMG, that is so funny!

	01-01-2004 00:26									#264
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Perhaps he hasn't dealt with his own team very much.

	01-01-2004 00:40									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Perhaps he hasn't dealt with his own team very much.

Are you trying to say GWT is inactive and doesn't respond to our messages?

	01-01-2004 01:20									#266
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MZ, send the message, just add to it that we'd be very happy to chat with him about this issue and other issues between our nations at any time.

Give him instructions on how to meet us in the ISDGfamtalks channel and let's see if he takes the invite.

--Togas

	01-01-2004 01:37									#267
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Alrighty, sounds good. Let's see where this goes.

	01-01-2004 07:08									#268
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If Arne is on board, I will not hold things up. Go ahead.

	01-01-2004 23:27									#269
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Please consult the FA correspondance thread. GWT's Minister of War (who is on MAST with me in the PTWDG2) has contacted me personally as well.

	01-01-2004 23:49									#270
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I sent the reply early yesterday, didn't post anything here because I just had a little time to do it:

quote: Hello Iron Jackson, First of all apologies for my delay, it has been the holidays and I had also been sick with the flu. In order to allow passage of GWT ships, our team feels that GWT must correspond by allowing passage of our own. Many turns ago, our ship the AIS Princess of Apolyton was denied passage through GWT land, we then offered a mutual Naval Right of Passage which was also refused. We are more than willing to put the issue back on the table: a Mutual Naval Right of Passage which can allow ships of GWT and Apolyton to freely pass through their territories (without landing any units of course). If GWT accepts this, so will Apolyton. Also since you are the new foreign minister of GWT we would like to inform you of our IRC chat channel which is #isdgfamtalks at our server irc.apolyton.net (port 6667), your or anyone else from GWT is welcome to join us in case there is something you need discussing, there is usually someone from our foreign affairs ministry always present. Best regards, -Master Zen Ambassador