09-09-2003 03:59									#1
	Minimum Wage Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I understand why businesses that pay many of its employees cannot be arsed to take a little more out of their huge profits to pay their employees a living wage, rather than a minimum wage. It's called greed, plain and simple.

I also understand that there are teenagers that can work on minimum wage, because they usually live with their parents yet.



What I do not understand, is how businesses and politicians expect independent adults who are legal citizens of this country, to be able to live off of minimum wage.

Someone on CNN earlier this evening who was a guest, stated that our minimum wage level is below the poverty level.

	09-09-2003 04:12									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Because if they are the only one's paynig a living wage while their competitors are paying min wage, then they will go out of business.

	09-09-2003 04:24									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ask Rich, he's the expert on minimum wage.

	09-09-2003 04:28									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: I understand why businesses that pay many of its employees cannot be arsed to take a little more out of their huge profits to pay their employees a living wage, rather than a minimum wage. It's called greed, plain and simple.

Ask a local buisness if it's greed. A lot of them pay minimum wage to its cashier people because they can't afford to pay them more. Not every company makes insane amounts of profits.

	09-09-2003 04:42									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

They should repeal the minimum wage, and all worker regulations. Imagine how insanely powerful the unions would become. If unions were smart, they would be for the repeal of all government worker regulations.

	09-09-2003 04:46									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia They should repeal the minimum wage, and all worker regulations. Imagine how insanely powerful the unions would become. If unions were smart, they would be for the repeal of all government worker regulations.

We had no minimum wage in the UK during a depressed jobs market, people just got paid less and were to scared to join a union in case they got sacked. end of story.

	09-09-2003 05:40									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Chegitz, that would not be a problem if the government abolished minimum wage, and replaced it with an enforced living wage, would it?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I understand why businesses that pay many of its employees cannot be arsed to take a little more out of their huge profits to pay their employees a living wage, rather than a minimum wage. It's called greed, plain and simple. Ask a local buisness if it's greed. A lot of them pay minimum wage to its cashier people because they can't afford to pay them more. Not every company makes insane amounts of profits.

Ok -- that's fair enough. So if these businesses are not making enough in profit, how long can these businesses go on operating anyway?

	09-09-2003 06:02									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: So if these businesses are not making enough in profit, how long can these businesses go on operating anyway?

They are making enough in profit, and can go on for years, because they don't have to pay their staff $10/hr or somewhat. As soon as you do that, suddenly they aren't.

	09-09-2003 06:06									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess starvation wage is better than no wage.

	09-09-2003 06:09									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And I seriously doubt it is 'starvation wage' to work a full time minimum wage job .

	09-09-2003 06:10									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Those people making minimum wage have a choice. Keep doing what you are doing now, or educate yourself and develop more valuable skills.

	09-09-2003 06:26									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

bah... there's a problem when a single mother with three kids (and no child support) is working on minimum wage but we got systems set up for this (ie- welfare, section 8, enforcement of child support laws, etc.).

one person can live quite well on a single minimum wage job and throw in a second shift and you start doing pretty good. person gets married and their spouse works similiar hours and you can start raking in some money. how do you think all those foreigners do it? they make a tens of thousands of dollars in only a few years of working on minimum wage if even that long.

secondly, the economic implications of a high minimum wage would be disastrious. small business (and you got to remember that **** like mcdonalds and kfcs are franchise corporations... the individual mcdonalds is really a semi-independent small business that sells mcdonalds products) would not be able to pay their workers. i dont know about you, but i dont like the thought of the only businesses capable of paying their employees (and the only ones able to survive) being all huge corporations. secondly, to make ends meet (or maybe they're just greedy and want to make money), businesses will have to raise prices which makes you wonder what good is being paid $10/hr when a cheeseburger is costing you $2 instead of $1.

(AS wonders if MrFun ever worked a minimum wage job)

thanks

	09-09-2003 06:31									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer which makes you wonder what good is being paid $10/hr when a cheeseburger is costing you $2 instead of $1.

is it compulsory to buy the cheeseburger?

	09-09-2003 06:33									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And I seriously doubt it is 'starvation wage' to work a full time minimum wage job .

You've never been forced to work minimum wage, huh?

	09-09-2003 06:34									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Those people making minimum wage have a choice. Keep doing what you are doing now, or educate yourself and develop more valuable skills.

what if it's not within their capabilites? 40 hours a week of anyones time, no matter what the job, should be worth a certain amount (ie. a living wage)

	09-09-2003 06:35									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer bah... there's a problem when a single mother with three kids (and no child support) is working on minimum wage but we got systems set up for this (ie- welfare, section 8, enforcement of child support laws, etc.). one person can live quite well on a single minimum wage job and throw in a second shift and you start doing pretty good. person gets married and their spouse works similiar hours and you can start raking in some money. how do you think all those foreigners do it? they make a tens of thousands of dollars in only a few years of working on minimum wage if even that long.

It's called cost of living. lets see, $5.45/hour, lets say 60 hours a week, that's $327 a week, or 654 per pay period, with SS taken out and any other taxes, lets say $600. That's 1200 a month, 14,400 a year. Now, here in NY, some studios cost $1000 a month in rent, and that is without utilities. Now, lets say they spend about 600 a month of housing: that is 50% of their wages simply on housing, without going into utilities and food..what exactly is left for saving?

So, one's ability to live on the minimum wage is based on where they live.

	09-09-2003 06:37									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer bah... there's a problem when a single mother with three kids (and no child support) is working on minimum wage but we got systems set up for this (ie- welfare, section 8, enforcement of child support laws, etc.). thanks

I know the problem. having 3 kids.

	09-09-2003 06:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

reds:

quote: is it compulsory to buy the cheeseburger?

what in god's name are you talking about? alright how about this... you got to go to the supermarket to get your some bread... wait... the bread packers are getting $10/hr... so are the truckers that send it over to the supermarket... the unloaders... the stock-boys... the cashers... that 99 cent bread can quickly double in price with a doubling of the minimum wage. everything produced, shipped, stocked, or sold by minimum wage labour will increase in price.

Monkspider:

quote: You've never been forced to work minimum wage, huh?

Imran is a libertarian... of course he never worked no minimum wage job.

	09-09-2003 06:40									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gepap:

minimum is not 5.45... it's 5.25... and i already broke down on apolyton how much taxes takes out of my check. give me my full check and i'd be living great.

	09-09-2003 06:41									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever what if it's not within their capabilites? 40 hours a week of anyones time, no matter what the job, should be worth a certain amount (ie. a living wage)

If you could simply work 40 hours a week doing any job and make enough to satisfy all your monitary wants and needs, why would there be any reason to try harder? If you raised the minimum wage it would give many people a reason not to educate themselves and try to do better for themselves.

Never underestimate the power of human laziness.

	09-09-2003 06:44									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer reds: what in god's name are you talking about? alright how about this... you got to go to the supermarket to get your some bread... wait... the bread packers are getting $10/hr... so are the truckers that send it over to the supermarket... the unloaders... the stock-boys... the cashers... that 99 cent bread can quickly double in price with a doubling of the minimum wage. everything produced, shipped, stocked, or sold by minimum wage labour will increase in price.

How about this then Kid Dynamite, the execs/management take less of the pie and pay the workers some of it? Maybe the market won't stand $10 bread, who cares? The fat cats can stand the difference and drop the price back down

	09-09-2003 06:45									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

Gepap:

though i really do question why someone would rent a 1G apt like that though? apts in philly cost between 325-600 a month depending on the neighbourhood, size of apt. if all you need is a one bed-room and you are willing to live in a somewhat poor area, 325 a month will do it and thats not even considering section 8 housing.

there's plenty of people who make minimum wage and always buy 150 dollar jordans, etc. of course there's also single mothers who make the same amount and barely make ends meet so it is relative in regards of how many mouths you got to feed and how many people in your home work.

	09-09-2003 06:48									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

reds...

do you not read my posts or something?

fat cats have nothing to do with this! each individual mcdonalds store is a semi-independent small business... every Taco Bell... every Burger King... and hundreds of other businesses that aren't franchises pay their workers minimum wage or not that much above. the managers cant afford to pay their workers a lot because the business will fold. we're not talking about CEO's here... we're talking about people who own and operate a single store.

	09-09-2003 06:49									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If you could simply work 40 hours a week doing any job and make enough to satisfy all your monitary wants and needs, why would there be any reason to try harder? If you raised the minimum wage it would give many people a reason not to educate themselves and try to do better for themselves. Never underestimate the power of human laziness.

I earn (pretty much) the national average for the UK (ie way above our minimum wage), I have a good lifestyle and I'm still putting myself through a degree course at my own expense. If some people are content then good luck to them.

	09-09-2003 06:52									#25
	Tired of ads?

Because it is the only thing available in their neighborhood? That the housing market in Philly is so weak does not mean the housing market esewhere is not horribly expensive.

The cost of living has to be dirt low for minimum wage to seem the good life. Do you pay for housing with your money? utilities? Insurance co-pays? Car insurance? Groceries?

I assume you income supplements that of your parents. If both your parents made minimum wage only, would your family afford it's standard of living as is?

	09-09-2003 06:53									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer reds... do you not read my posts or something? fat cats have nothing to do with this! each individual mcdonalds store is a semi-independent small business... every Taco Bell... every Burger King... and hundreds of other businesses that aren't franchises pay their workers minimum wage or not that much above. the managers cant afford to pay their workers a lot because the business will fold. we're not talking about CEO's here... we're talking about people who own and operate a single store.

Jeez Albert

So every US McDonalds manager is free to charge what he likes for the food or pay his staff what he likes? No? then it's not an independent business is it? Perhaps if the franchises cost less...which brings us back to.....?

	09-09-2003 06:54									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah, but it's hard to eke out a living if you try to make a 'name' for yourself. If you had a choice of buying a well-established franchise rather than establishing your own business from the ground up, most economically-challenged people have NO CHOICE if they wish to start their own business.

Also, you don't have to pay for marketing. That's, of course, in the fast-food business. In video games, you just don't pay the designers, testers, or associate anybodies. It's kind of the same thing, except it's not as funny if you own a Burger King or worked on a VG production team as a designer.

	09-09-2003 06:57									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever I earn (pretty much) the national average for the UK (ie way above our minimum wage), I have a good lifestyle and I'm still putting myself through a degree course at my own expense. If some people are content then good luck to them.

I'm not against sensible government regulations, but there is a fine line between that and wasteful, dangerous interference.



"Present-day profit-motivated economics is doomed unless profit motives can be augmented by service motives. Ruthless competition based on narrow-minded self-interest is ultimately destructive of even those things which it seeks to maintain. Exclusive and self-serving profit motivation is incompatible with Christian ideals--much more incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

In economics, profit motivation is to service motivation what fear is to love in religion. But the profit motive must not be suddenly destroyed or removed; it keeps many otherwise slothful mortals hard at work. It is not necessary, however, that this social energy arouser be forever selfish in its objectives.

The profit motive of economic activities is altogether base and wholly unworthy of an advanced order of society; nevertheless, it is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization. Profit motivation must not be taken away from men until they have firmly possessed themselves of superior types of nonprofit motives for economic striving and social serving--the transcendent urges of superlative wisdom, intriguing brotherhood, and excellency of spiritual attainment."

	09-09-2003 06:59									#29
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I'm not against sensible government regulations, but there is a fine line between that and wasteful, dangerous interference. "Present-day profit-motivated economics is doomed unless profit motives can be augmented by service motives. Ruthless competition based on narrow-minded self-interest is ultimately destructive of even those things which it seeks to maintain. Exclusive and self-serving profit motivation is incompatible with Christian ideals--much more incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. In economics, profit motivation is to service motivation what fear is to love in religion. But the profit motive must not be suddenly destroyed or removed; it keeps many otherwise slothful mortals hard at work. It is not necessary, however, that this social energy arouser be forever selfish in its objectives. The profit motive of economic activities is altogether base and wholly unworthy of an advanced order of society; nevertheless, it is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization. Profit motivation must not be taken away from men until they have firmly possessed themselves of superior types of nonprofit motives for economic striving and social serving--the transcendent urges of superlative wisdom, intriguing brotherhood, and excellency of spiritual attainment."

communism alert captain.

	09-09-2003 06:59									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Gepap:

if both my parents worked minimum wage, i'd be living better... remember i came from a single mother household.

secondly, me going to college precludes me from working even a 40 hr/wk. the best i can do is try for 20-30/wk but that's pushing it. judging from the amount of time i put into college and working, i could, if i weren't attending college, work 50-60 hr/wk without any difficulty (most of my co-workers work 80 hrs [even the managers have second jobs])... that really should be suficient to live fairly good in philly which has a relatively low cost of living. (though car insurance is VERY high mainly due to the fact that no one has it [which makes me wonder why the companies increase it even more?])

another thing to keep in mind is just the fact that minimum wage jobs don't take much and are never intended as being at all permanant. though i have never worked at any higher job, i find 8 hours at mcdonalds incredibly easy (i often work 12 hour shifts). minimum wage seems to be a fitting wage for such little work.