09-09-2003 07:01									#31
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Question: are there any jobs that oay a wage that are exempt from the minimum wage?

	09-09-2003 07:03									#32
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Strippers, cocktail waitresses, "exotic dancers"

	09-09-2003 07:03									#33
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Albert

If you have to work 80 hours a week, when are you actually going to live?

Work to Live not Live to Work

	09-09-2003 07:06									#34
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon communism alert captain.

Far from it. Communists would never admit that the profit motive "is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization"

	09-09-2003 07:07									#35
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The thing is Speer, what kind of life do you have working for 80 hours a week? There are 168 hours a week, so anyone working 80 hours a week is taking up close to 50% of their absolute time working. Assume 6 hours of sleep a day maybe and that gives them 46 hours left of life a week, and I assume some of that is spent commuting. That is a good life?

As for jobs, it looked like you did not have that much work study, but you should see what jobs are available in college: with work study you could make more an hour than you are now. Also, i have no diea if any of the large national chains of retail stores are anywehre near were you live, but they generally pay a buck or two more than minimum to their employees.

	09-09-2003 07:09									#36
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reds:

thats the thing... people i know who work that many hours do not do it to make ends meet... they do it so they won't have to work so many hours in a few years. they'll tell you flat out... work 80 hour weeks for a couple years and it wont be long before you have enough money saved up to live comfortably and find yourself a higher paying job. immigrants do it all the time.

	09-09-2003 07:13									#37
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Actually, most don't. They continue to work low paying jobs for many, many years.

Besides, there are plenty of jobs that pay better than minimum wage done by immigrants, such as driving cabs or housework: they pay better because they are actually undesireable but necessary enough to demand higher pay, and the legions of teenagers that some business can count on don't exist.

	09-09-2003 07:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Far from it. Communists would never admit that the profit motive "is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization"

I dont see wuts the harm. as long as the ppl revult and we live in an altruisitc paradise. the "indispensibility" seems frivelous.

	09-09-2003 07:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I dont see wuts the harm. as long as the ppl revult and we live in an altruisitc paradise. the "indispensibility" seems frivelous.

It's not forced altruism - that's the difference.

	09-09-2003 07:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Jeez Albert So every US McDonalds manager is free to charge what he likes for the food or pay his staff what he likes? No? then it's not an independent business is it? Perhaps if the franchises cost less...which brings us back to.....?

Why do you think those MickeyD commercials for special offers say "at participating restaurants only"? The franchisees do control their prices, limited by the local market.

	09-09-2003 07:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer work 80 hour weeks for a couple years and it wont be long before you have enough money saved up to live comfortably and find yourself a higher paying job. immigrants do it all the time.

I can flip burgers for 80 hrs a week for the next 2 years and then join Microsoft as Head of Marketing?

Can i have that in writing? I'll be on the next plane over there

	09-09-2003 07:22									#42
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opps!

	09-09-2003 07:26									#43
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Prices vary greatly by market for most fast food restaurants. Maybe once in a while the chain institutes some universal gimmick, like the "99 cent menu, dollar meal", so forth but as TMM said, local owners do get to set prices.

A Big mac in Manhattan will cost more than one in Kansas City.

	09-09-2003 07:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Why do you think those MickeyD commercials for special offers say "at participating restaurants only"? The franchisees do control their prices, limited by the local market.

They have targets they have to meet and are given leeway to meet those targets based on their local market, The fact remains that if those targets/franchises wern't so high...nah, just read above....

	09-09-2003 07:28									#45
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first of all... we do NOT flip burgers... we just put them on the grill and they get cooked on both sides automatically... only when the grill is malfunctioning do we ever flip burgers...

secondly, you won't become head of marketing but you might get a promotion to manager, you might start up your own small business, you might have enough money saved up to take classes and get a better job, or you might just find another blue collar job that happens to pay you more (KFC pays fairly well)

	09-09-2003 07:31									#46
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how much are big macs in nyc, gepap? 2.45 here regular price.

	09-09-2003 07:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer secondly, you won't become head of marketing but you might get a promotion to manager, you might start up your own small business, you might have enough money saved up to take classes and get a better job, or you might just find another blue collar job that happens to pay you more (KFC pays fairly well)

I'm working 80 hours a week(apparently), where do I get the time (even if I had the money) to take classes? And if the limit of my asperations is Assistant Manager at KFC you can stick the 'American Dream' up your arse.

Is n't the market for fast food franchises likely to become a touch overcrowded once all us immigrants realize how good the money is for running one?

	09-09-2003 07:45									#48
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good book on this matter, nickel and dimed, by barbara ehrenrich or something like that.

	09-09-2003 07:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed good book on this matter, nickel and dimed, by barbara ehrenrich or something like that.

from which side? I just get wound up when I read right wing writers that I know are wrong, but I'm too dumb to argue against.

	09-09-2003 07:54									#50
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is this one of those issues where liberals/leftists exaggerate things? you won't be living like a king on minimum wage but you won't be starving... thats for sure.

as many people as there are that wear roc-a-fella and avirex jackets, sean john shirts, ecko jeans, and jordans, no one in philly is starving... all the puerto ricans with their rims and huge stereo systems... people get by cool on minimum wage. you live in a shithole but you got luxuries. that sums it up good.

	09-09-2003 07:55									#51
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i read excerpts from that book... exaggeration.

	09-09-2003 07:58									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i read excerpts from that book... exaggeration.

well that answered my last question

	09-09-2003 08:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer is this one of those issues where liberals/leftists exaggerate things? .

nope, it's one of those issues where convervatives/'rightists' always try to skate over by saying 'if only they would try....'

	09-09-2003 08:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Ask Rich, he's the expert on minimum wage.

Another ad hominem coming out of nowhere. What the hell is wrong with you?

	09-09-2003 08:05									#55
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Minimum wage is meant to be one of the protections against corporate heads from becoming too greedy--we wouldn't want a return to 1890-era workers' rights, would we?

I think it's just high enough. If you're a teenager you don't need any more since you live with your parents, and if you're not it's a motivation to get a decent job that will pay you half a ****.

	09-09-2003 08:17									#56
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Minimum wage laws destroy jobs by pricing less valuable, more common skills out of the market. If your labor is only worth $5 an hour, then forcing employers to pay you $6 an hour makes it unprofitable to hire you.

I use to deliver newspapers when I was young and our labor was not worth the minimum wage. If we were paid $5.25 an hour, subscription rates would have jumped making it harder for many people to afford them. Ironically, while newspaper editorial boards pushed for minimum wages, newspaper companies made sure they were exempt from those laws.

A few years ago, the Sierra Club of California pushed for an increase in the minimum wage (environmental organisation?).
But at the same time they lobbied the legislature for an exemption from the minimum wage because it would force them to fire employees because they couldn't afford higher wages. Minimum wage laws are all about screwing some people out of jobs to increase the income of other people and no amount of BS from the left can turn that truth into morality...

	09-09-2003 08:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Minimum wage laws destroy jobs by pricing less valuable, more common skills out of the market. If your labor is only worth $5 an hour, then forcing employers to pay you $6 an hour makes it unprofitable to hire you. I use to deliver newspapers when I was young and our labor was not worth the minimum wage. If we were paid $5.25 an hour, subscription rates would have jumped making it harder for many people to afford them. Ironically, while newspaper editorial boards pushed for minimum wages, newspaper companies made sure they were exempt from those laws. A few years ago, the Sierra Club of California pushed for an increase in the minimum wage (environmental organisation?). But at the same time they lobbied the legislature for an exemption from the minimum wage because it would force them to fire employees because they couldn't afford higher wages. Minimum wage laws are all about screwing some people out of jobs to increase the income of other people and no amount of BS from the left can turn that truth into morality...

complete and utter b0llocks

	09-09-2003 08:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Minimum wage is meant to be one of the protections against corporate heads from becoming too greedy--we wouldn't want a return to 1890-era workers' rights, would we? I think it's just high enough. If you're a teenager you don't need any more since you live with your parents, and if you're not it's a motivation to get a decent job that will pay you half a ****.

the Uk has a different minimum wages for under 21's than adults, which, for the reasons you mention, is fair enough

	09-09-2003 09:18									#59
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quote: It's called cost of living. lets see, $5.45/hour, lets say 60 hours a week, that's $327 a week, or 654 per pay period, with SS taken out and any other taxes, lets say $600. That's 1200 a month, 14,400 a year. Now, here in NY, some studios cost $1000 a month in rent, and that is without utilities. Now, lets say they spend about 600 a month of housing: that is 50% of their wages simply on housing, without going into utilities and food..what exactly is left for saving?

48 hours/ week all over in most Canadian cities considered by law overtime and taxed at a higher rate. 48h x 5.25/hour = 252.00/ week
52 weeks in the year, 52 x 252.00=13104.00. Tax base about 26%

630.00/ 60 hours work week 7.5/ 7 days, 10/ 6 days, 12/ 5 days worked.

The Fraser Institutue puts your taxes at 48% of total cash income, 32% of total income before tax...

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/20...2/03TxFxch3.pdf

We will use the standard Canadian tax rate after provincial and federal which is about 27% all included, CCP etc...On the 48 hour work week...

13104.00-3538.08=9565.92 after tax/ year income.
Rent in that 325/ month unit 3900=5665.92
Utilities @ 50.00/ month= 600.00/ year=5065.92
Transportation @ 100.00/ month= 1200.00/ year=3865.92
Food @ 50.00/ seven days x 52= 2600 (remember gst would take about 182.00 away from your spending power here)=1265.92/ year remaining
1265.92/ 52= 50.00/ week extra
One would see it is not enough to go to school not enough for tuition not enough to cover medical bills, speaking of which in Alberta you would pay 20.00/ month or more for healthcare...So let's say you worked your 80 hours per week assume at the same wage you would have enough to go to school but no time to do it...Unless of course you used the 5 hours you had left in the day...Not according to reality you would suffer burn-out in your first year of doing this.

Now compare that to the owner of the McDonalds...

P.S. in Canada 325.00/ month rental units are rare, average rent is 480.00 (800.00 in Toronto) per month so much for your 50.00 per week for emergencies.
In fact on minimum wage in the average situation you would be about 740.00 to spend/ year...about 14.00 extra/ week after all said and done.
1860.00 more per year in rent 5760/ year vs 3900.00

http://www.dol.gov/ILAB/media/repor...y/FS-Canada.htm

I really feel for the CEO who got that 2 million dollar bonus after thier wage you? I imagine that 38461.00/ week would hire a few more people or would put 38.00 dollars more per week into 1000 employees pockets.
Hummm in Canada based on the averages that would put the works back to the 50.00/ week extra....

quote: So, one's ability to live on the minimum wage is based on where they live.

Sort of, based on averages you do not live well on minimum wage anywhere, nor do the employers fair well with 80 hour over worked under paid employees.
The whinners cost of replacing under paid employees does not count. After all if you paid and treated your employees well that cost would good down.

Consider this a single person on welfare in Ontario gets 548.00/ month assuming they have a place to live. If they do not 220.00/ month...

Welcome the new world order...

	09-09-2003 09:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I understand why businesses that pay many of its employees cannot be arsed to take a little more out of their huge profits to pay their employees a living wage, rather than a minimum wage. It's called greed, plain and simple.

Ahhh, good ol' corporate greed. Of course, when businesses are losing money, and/or going out of business (like a lot are) the people who ***** about corporate greed are curiously silent. Business is an at risk proposition - you make money when you can, and sometimes, you can't.

quote: What I do not understand, is how businesses and politicians expect independent adults who are legal citizens of this country, to be able to live off of minimum wage.

You're not obligated to pay somebody to support a particular lifestyle. You're obligated to pay a mutually agreed upon price for the market value of the employee's labor. Instead of *****ing about how unfair it is, these people should get some skills.

quote: Someone on CNN earlier this evening who was a guest, stated that our minimum wage level is below the poverty level.

If you do work with little market value, and an oversupply of unskilled labor, then no duh.