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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
MTG -- yes, we need to do a lot less blaming -- from BOTH SIDES before we can make serious progress towards more equitable quality of life.
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All blaming someone does is jack off the ego of whoever is doing the blaming. I'm more interested in solving problems and moving forward. It also creates an atmosphere wherein people expect somebody else to bail them out as compensation. So it's totally wasted energy.
quote:
And I'm glad you had the exceptional experience of climbing from the very bottom to the top. You worked hard, and you earned it -- but do people living below poverty -- excluding exceptional "success" stories, even have an opportunity to climb up?? |
Sure they do. Poverty line people are generally unskilled laborers (I'm excluding people with real disabilities, etc., because I think they should be helped to a degree that keeps them above the poverty line), and the majority of jobs out there required some degree of skill, whether it's white collar or blue collar.
The "I don't got no opportunity and it's all _______________'s (fill in the blank with the villain of your choice) fault" is a cop out line for losers. There are trade schools, free or low cost adult ed classes, OJT, training in the military, union apprenticeship programs, all sorts of options for people to improve their economic situation.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
All blaming someone does is jack off the ego of whoever is doing the blaming. I'm more interested in solving problems and moving forward. It also creates an atmosphere wherein people expect somebody else to bail them out as compensation. So it's totally wasted energy.
Sure they do. Poverty line people are generally unskilled laborers (I'm excluding people with real disabilities, etc., because I think they should be helped to a degree that keeps them above the poverty line), and the majority of jobs out there required some degree of skill, whether it's white collar or blue collar.
The "I don't got no opportunity and it's all _______________'s (fill in the blank with the villain of your choice) fault" is a cop out line for losers. There are trade schools, free or low cost adult ed classes, OJT, training in the military, union apprenticeship programs, all sorts of options for people to improve their economic situation. |
So the reason that these impoverished minimum wage workers are not taking up these opportunities to utilize the resources you mentioned is simply because of laziness?
I think that is over-simplification, don't you?
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
It's not forced altruism - that's the difference. |
forced altruism? u mean "be nice or I shoot u in the head?" now thats some bizarre stuff
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
forced altruism? u mean "be nice or I shoot u in the head?" now thats some bizarre stuff |
That's communism.
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DAVOUT
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AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Poverty line people are generally unskilled laborers (I'm excluding people with real disabilities, etc., because I think they should be helped to a degree that keeps them above the poverty line), and the majority of jobs out there required some degree of skill, whether it's white collar or blue collar.
The "I don't got no opportunity and it's all _______________'s (fill in the blank with the villain of your choice) fault" is a cop out line for losers. There are trade schools, free or low cost adult ed classes, OJT, training in the military, union apprenticeship programs, all sorts of options for people to improve their economic situation. |
According to the IQ curve, they are as many people below 75 than above 125. I suspect that those people can hardly, if at all, adapt to our modern complex society, and are unable to acquire a qualification. Do you count them in the desabled?
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Park Avenue
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Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:30
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A lot of idiotic arguments in this thread so far. Can't be arsed dealing with them all.
Mr Fun
quote:
I'm talking about part of mainstream American society of independent adults who are legal citizens, who work their asses off, yet still live below the poverty level in one of the wealthiest nations in the world. |
I haven't a clue what the average minimum wage is in the US, but let's assume it's similar to that in the UK; so, around $6.50 p/h. "Working their asses off" says to me 50+ hours a week, in which case they'd be earning upwards of $320 a week. $16k a year. If that is below the "poverty line" I think it says more about the excellent standard of living Americans enjoy than about the individual situation.
GePap,
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Any system that has rich needs poor. not everyone has the time to take of to study, and as I have said before, if everyone studies and gets an associates or bachelors, then having it becoms the requirement and the value of it goes down (supply and demand, supply and demand). The only reason we can say "go to college so you can get a better job" is that there are enough people out there qho don;t go to college and you can skip right over them. If they all had a degree, then it becomes "go get a doctorate and a good job boy!" |
Link me studies that show education is a zero-sum game please. It's not.
PChang,
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It also seems that over time, the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not tends to grow |
Last week's Economist showed global inequality is falling. I trust you have a copy.
In the UK it's mostly middle-class teenagers and wives of wealthy men who have benefitted most from the minimum wage laws. I therefore hardly see a (higher) minimum wage as helping the most needy in society.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
That's communism. |
I might agree more but I don't think u'd get many communists to.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
If I see a day laborer sweating in the fields and decide to give him some of my water, is that stealing?
If I make public good works in the hope of inspiring others to do likewise, is that stealing?
If I pay the premiums on an insurance policy, but never need to file a claim, is that stealing?
If I give money to a beggar so he'll leave me alone, is that stealing?
If I pay taxes that partially go towards social programs, is that stealing?
If I pay protection money to people so they will not rob, maim, or kill me, is that stealing?
Real problems and real solutions are not black and white. |
they may or may not be black and white, but atleast we now know they aren't all stealing!
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Chegitz, that would not be a problem if the government abolished minimum wage, and replaced it with an enforced living wage, would it?
Ok -- that's fair enough. So if these businesses are not making enough in profit, how long can these businesses go on operating anyway? |
Some bussiness when they start out can pay little to their workers. I find that biger companies often pay more. Sometimes you have to start off at the bottom and work your way up to a higher wage. It happens with everyone. Even the CEOs of big corperations that make millions just did not land that job when they first came out of School.
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Jack_www
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Also the reason why bussiness pay people minimum wage is because there are people willing to work for that wage. In the US illigeals even willing to work less then the minimum wage because that money goes a lot longer in Mexico then the US. If no one wanted a minimum wage job then bussiness in response would pay more. You also have to think about if bussiness raised wages what about prices for good they make? Would not they go up too?
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
If I see a day laborer sweating in the fields and decide to give him some of my water, is that stealing?
If I make public good works in the hope of inspiring others to do likewise, is that stealing?
If I pay the premiums on an insurance policy, but never need to file a claim, is that stealing?
If I give money to a beggar so he'll leave me alone, is that stealing?
If I pay taxes that partially go towards social programs, is that stealing?
If I pay protection money to people so they will not rob, maim, or kill me, is that stealing?
Real problems and real solutions are not black and white. |
You have to remember that in the Libertarian world (what I call the Liberterrarium) things are black and white. And the light is usually off, too. 
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09-09-2003 11:18
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