09-09-2003 10:12									#61
	Get a bigger avatar today!

So in one of the richest countries in the world, it's justifiable that we still have a segment of the population that works their asses off, yet still live below poverty line, MTG??

	09-09-2003 10:15									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

i'm questioning this whole poverty line thing when people who live in slums wear a different pair of 150 dollar sneakers everyday... and thats the truth

	09-09-2003 10:19									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

oh and i'm not really seeing why anyone besides teenagers and immigrants should have to work minimum wage jobs... it don't take too much to go to community college and that will get you at least a few dimes above minimum wage. all you got to do to graduate from community really is not get pregnant or impregnant a girl by your 16th birthday, not get arrested, and put down your bi-daily blunt...

if everyone did those things, they would be able to graduate from college and get more than minimum wage easily

	09-09-2003 10:21									#64
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not talking about teenagers nor illegal immigrants here.

I'm talking about part of mainstream American society of independent adults who are legal citizens, who work their asses off, yet still live below the poverty level in one of the wealthiest nations in the world.

	09-09-2003 10:22									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Imran is a libertarian... of course he never worked no minimum wage job.

Yes, Speer, people of certain political persuasions are ALL the same, you dumb moron.

Perhaps you missed all the times I've talked about working for CVS for 4 summers. You think they pay well for cashier positions?

And my family has only become 'well off' with in the last 10 years. When I was younger we lived in a tiny apartment because that was the best we could afford. My dad was an immigrant who had little money, who worked hard and carried himself up.

The moral of the story? Get some facts or shut the Hell up .

	09-09-2003 10:24									#66
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Poverty line is relative. You want to see poverty line, get your ass down here. Then go to El Salvador, and the worst situation you find here will look pretty good. Go to Haiti, and El Salvador ain't bad.

Even here in Mexico, there is opportunity to get ahead and improve your skills and the market value of your work. In a lot of the world, you don't have that at all. In the US and the developed world in general, you have an abundance of opportunity to get off the unskilled, low value labor dead end.

It doesn't matter if you work your ass off - what matters is the marketable value of what you do, and how replaceable your skills (or utter lack thereof) are in the labor marketplace.

You're not owed a lifestyle by your employer. You're owed the agreed upon value for production of your work product, whatever it may be. If you don't like that number, start finding a way to do a more valuable work product.

	09-09-2003 10:28									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Poverty line is relative. You want to see poverty line, get your ass down here. Then go to El Salvador, and the worst situation you find here will look pretty good. Go to Haiti, and El Salvador ain't bad. Even here in Mexico, there is opportunity to get ahead and improve your skills and the market value of your work. In a lot of the world, you don't have that at all. In the US and the developed world in general, you have an abundance of opportunity to get off the unskilled, low value labor dead end. It doesn't matter if you work your ass off - what matters is the marketable value of what you do, and how replaceable your skills (or utter lack thereof) are in the labor marketplace. You're not owed a lifestyle by your employer. You're owed the agreed upon value for production of your work product, whatever it may be. If you don't like that number, start finding a way to do a more valuable work product.

I've lived in Ecuador for the summer of 2001 -- I have gained a little first-hand view of poverty. In fact, one day, I saw this homeless guy in Cuenca, and I had bought a nice blanket for myself earlier. I gave it to him, then moved on.

Granted, I have not seen any of the sort of poverty that you're describing in other areas, but don't assume that I'm completely naive.



But you're right -- perhaps the people living on poverty wages should find ways to become more marketable. But how difficult would it be for them -- where could they even start with the meager resources they have?

	09-09-2003 10:29									#68
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not talking about teenagers nor illegal immigrants here.

Ha, so itīs ok for teenagers or illegal immigrants to live below the poverty limit? /cheap troll

	09-09-2003 10:29									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: complete and utter b0llocks

Ah yes, reds4ever has employed the non-rebuttal rebuttal. You know, the kind of "rebuttal" that is conspicuously immune to analysis.

	09-09-2003 10:30									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by BeBro Ha, so itīs ok for teenagers or illegal immigrants to live below the poverty limit? /cheap troll

point one -- teenagers -- in most cases -- live with their parents


point two -- illegal immigrants went into the country illegally



MTG -- I posted a response above, for you.

	09-09-2003 10:31									#71
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: But how difficult would it be for them -- where could they even start with the meager resources they have?

The main problem is that they didn't take schooling seriously. Because as Speer pointed out, going even to community college (which is usually very cheap and if you can't afford that, you can ALWAYS get a federal loan), will pull you out of minimum wage work... unless you have an English degree (kidding, kidding).

So if they didn't take it seriously then, what makes you think they'll take it seriously now?

	09-09-2003 10:32									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But how difficult would it be for them -- where could they even start with the meager resources they have? The main problem is that they didn't take schooling seriously. Because as Speer pointed out, going even to community college (which is usually very cheap and if you can't afford that, you can ALWAYS get a federal loan), will pull you out of minimum wage work... unless you have an English degree (kidding, kidding). So if they didn't take it seriously then, what makes you think they'll take it seriously now?

Nice generalization -- all people living below poverty line is through their fault alone.

	09-09-2003 10:33									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

	09-09-2003 10:36									#74
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by GePap Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

We might agree on some points, but you're still not having any luck converting me to communism's ideology.

	09-09-2003 10:36									#75
	Got spare money?

Any system that has rich needs poor. not everyone has the time to take of to study, and as I have said before, if everyone studies and gets an associates or bachelors, then having it becoms the requirement and the value of it goes down (supply and demand, supply and demand). The only reason we can say "go to college so you can get a better job" is that there are enough people out there qho don;t go to college and you can skip right over them. If they all had a degree, then it becomes "go get a doctorate and a good job boy!"

	09-09-2003 10:37									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Nice generalization -- all people living below poverty line is through their fault alone.

Well, I'd say more of it is their fault than the left is willing to admit and less of it is their fault than the right is willing to admit. At some point in time they have to look at themselves. The schools may suck, but if you are determined you can get through an inner city school and be successful. The harder part is changing the society of the inner city.

quote: Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

Who said anything about how much a man's life is worth . This is a strawman argument. The discussion is how much a man's LABOR is worth.

	09-09-2003 10:37									#77
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MrFun We might agree on some points, but you're still not having any luck converting me to communism's ideology.

If I were a communist then I might care. Interestingly enough those violent commies in the Catholic Church would say the same thing.

	09-09-2003 10:41									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who said anything about how much a man's life is worth . This is a strawman argument. The discussion is how much a man's LABOR is worth.

Which would be a clear distinction if it werent for the whole "we live in a market eocnomy and you need money to live" bit about modern life.

	09-09-2003 10:42									#79
	Money, Compassion, and Self Interest Got spare money?

It appears to be a universal constant that those who are smarter or more able will figure out a way to amass more wealth than those around them. It also seems that over time, the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not tends to grow, until something comes along to change the current system (some cultural or technological upheaval).

However, compassion would dictate that we should not allow the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not to grow too large. Surely those who have so much could give a little of what they have to those who have so little.

Enlightened self interest would also indicate that it is not wise to allow the gap to grow too large between the haves and have nots. History appears to show that when the gap between those who have and those who have not grows to large, it tends to lead to some sort of cultural upheaval. In such an event, those who have the most have the most to lose, even if they have the most means to insulate themselves from that upheaval.

Surely, there must be some way to achieve a healthy balance. Minimum wage is such an attempt. It is a flawed method, but it seems fairly easy to implement. Socialism is another method. There are others. None seems perfect.

	09-09-2003 10:43									#80
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun But you're right -- perhaps the people living on poverty wages should find ways to become more marketable. But how difficult would it be for them -- where could they even start with the meager resources they have?

When I left home at 15, I had a backpack full of stuff, about $30, and noplace to stay other than camping in friend's yards, or (luckily it was summer) a quiet corner in a nearby elementary school.

First thing, is show some initiative - even flipping burgers, you can exceed minimum wage.

Second thing, once you start making more, save it to use for something, anything, that will improve your market value further - I don't care if it's one book at a time and self-study.

Third, if the economy sucks ass where you are, figure out a way to get someplace else.

	09-09-2003 10:45									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Which would be a clear distinction if it werent for the whole "we live in a market eocnomy and you need money to live" bit about modern life.

You may need money to live, but saying that money determines the value of life, means that you believe that the value of life is all economic and other parts of life simply don't matter.

Are you concluding that you are simply an economic automaton? If so, why are you posting here? Does it boost work productivity?

	09-09-2003 10:47									#82
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Nice generalization -- all people living below poverty line is through their fault alone.

Fault doesn't pay the bills. The trouble with ideologues is they're fixated on blaming whoever their pet villain is for whatever they don't like.

Fix the ****ing problem seņor, not the blame.

	09-09-2003 10:50									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

Umm...that "market" constitutes individual consumers and people who provide services who eventually agree on what products should cost. Now, your position is that all these people should not have control over their decisions and that you should have that control. So, while you're deciding what a man's life is worth (and not him), you will also decide what people pay for services. What happens when some people can't afford the inflated costs you've created? Will you subsidise them with other people's money? And what about the people who can't find work because you've decided their labor should be more valuable than the value recognised by employers? Will they be subsidised too once their jobs are gone? Are you sure you're qualified to make the millions of economic decisions we make every day?

	09-09-2003 10:55									#84
	reality check Tired of ads?

I sometimes get too involved with my deep thoughts and forget to look up from my navel. Posting here and being ignored acts as a good reality check.

	09-09-2003 11:01									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

lol

Actually, you made a very good point, and I didn't see anything to disagree with or that would further the point.

	09-09-2003 11:01									#86
	Increase Your PM Length

pchang yes too true, you post reality as did I and yet they say with 14.00 per week some how you are to go to school, move etc...

Just amazes me how people choose to ingore the obvious so justify thier ideologies...

	09-09-2003 11:01									#87
	Re: Money, Compassion, and Self Interest Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by pchang However, compassion would dictate that we should not allow the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not to grow too large. Surely those who have so much could give a little of what they have to those who have so little.

Yes, stealing in the name of compassion. Sorry, had to translate that "could give a little" part to reflect what you really advocate...

quote: Enlightened self interest would also indicate that it is not wise to allow the gap to grow too large between the haves and have nots. History appears to show that when the gap between those who have and those who have not grows to large, it tends to lead to some sort of cultural upheaval. In such an event, those who have the most have the most to lose, even if they have the most means to insulate themselves from that upheaval.

Yes, let's steal to prevent stealing.

quote: Surely, there must be some way to achieve a healthy balance. Minimum wage is such an attempt. It is a flawed method, but it seems fairly easy to implement. Socialism is another method. There are others. None seems perfect.

No, minimum wage is an attempt by leftists to acquire power by pitting the majority of working people against the minority who lose their jobs because of the artificially inflated wages. The problem is that artificial controls placed on economies by elitists will always lead to collapses, at which point the elites blame the results of their meddling on "the market".

	09-09-2003 11:04									#88
	Support Apolyton

quote: Posting here and being ignored acts as a good reality check.

Not sure you'll appreciate my attention.

	09-09-2003 11:07									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Berzerker

	09-09-2003 11:17									#90
	Re: Re: Money, Compassion, and Self Interest Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yes, stealing in the name of compassion. Sorry, had to translate that "could give a little" part to reflect what you really advocate... Yes, let's steal to prevent stealing. No, minimum wage is an attempt by leftists to acquire power by pitting the majority of working people against the minority who lose their jobs because of the artificially inflated wages. The problem is that artificial controls placed on economies by elitists will always lead to collapses, at which point the elites blame the results of their meddling on "the market".

Bastardizing other people's argument, are we?



MTG -- yes, we need to do a lot less blaming -- from BOTH SIDES before we can make serious progress towards more equitable quality of life.

And I'm glad you had the exceptional experience of climbing from the very bottom to the top. You worked hard, and you earned it -- but do people living below poverty -- excluding exceptional "success" stories, even have an opportunity to climb up??