09-09-2003 22:06									#121
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No one said it is our job to feed 'em, but if people are starving and their is food right around the corner being handed-out and they don't know it, that sucks...

If there is someone looking for a job, but is having a hard time because he doesn't have a perminent address, he should know how to fix that problem...

	09-09-2003 22:13									#122
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quote: If I see a day laborer sweating in the fields and decide to give him some of my water, is that stealing?

Voluntary action, so this no, this is not stealing.

quote: If I make public good works in the hope of inspiring others to do likewise, is that stealing?

See above, assuming you aren't violating anyone's property rights with your "good works".

quote: If I pay the premiums on an insurance policy, but never need to file a claim, is that stealing?

See above.

quote: If I give money to a beggar so he'll leave me alone, is that stealing?

See above.

quote: If I pay taxes that partially go towards social programs, is that stealing?

Absolutely, if the taxes aren't voluntary.

quote: If I pay protection money to people so they will not rob, maim, or kill me, is that stealing?

Absolutely, this is a form of coercion.

quote: Real problems and real solutions are not black and white.

Actually they usually are, most people just don't like the solutions.

	09-09-2003 22:16									#123
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quote: Actually they usually are, most people just don't like the solutions.

That ain't true; most people do like the solutions, but it is the minority that screams bloddy murder at them.

It's the tail waging the dog

	09-09-2003 22:17									#124
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quote: That ain't true; most people do like the solutions, but it is the minority that screams bloddy murder at them.

Good point, but I would also add that the minority have conditioned people to feel bad about the moral solution, so that most people will oppose these solutions, no matter what they really feel.

	09-09-2003 22:50									#125
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Money, Compassion, and Self Interest Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If they're not taking up these opportunities, then yes, laziness, or apathy, or some such factor must play into things. I assume that most minimum wage workers who are motivated to move above that level are looking for something better, and taking steps to improve their (lack of) marketable job skills. The fact that someone is working a minimum wage job now doesn't necessarily mean they'll be in the same job at the same wages next year. I didn't stick around minimum wage for very long.

I suppose you're right in that aspect.

	09-09-2003 23:16									#126
	So.... Tired of ads?

If most people are agreed that Minimum Wage is just one tool to try and make sure that the gap between the haves and have nots does not grow too large...

What other methods would you advocate? Why are they better?

or

Why should the gap between haves and have nots be allowed to evolve on its own?

	09-09-2003 23:31									#127
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good question pchang.

Besides wage, differences in social classes see

-varying tax brackets of income
-additional benefits and perks
-more educational outlets
-better health

Since minimum wage controls the differences between classes it might be one of these things that separates the two (apart from laziness, which I agree with).

Taxes; we have had many conversations on this, and no matter how we place it not everyone will be happy. Tax, no matter how much or how little, is always a burden. Yet, I don't think % wise that current standards are "unfair" though they could be more "fair", but in the long run I don't think it would help equalize class efforts.

Benefits and Perks: When someone works for or owns a company many of their otherwise expenses are taken care of or can be taken as a tax rigth-off. The right-off's are need as legitamate buisness expenses, perhaps not all of them, but once again I don't think the realized cost would be so great as to blurr class lines. Yet, things like life insurance, health care, and 401k ammenities do make the class differences larger.

Educational Outlets - Richer people generally have better luck educating their children. Whether this is due to personnal interests or social strata is unknown to me. I feel that they are one in the same. Most richer ppl take pride amongst their friends and families that their child is doing good in school, got a scholarship, or won a science fair. Whereas in poorer neighborhoods they more concerned with their child's safety, athletic performance, or clean criminal record.

Better Health - Partly due to benefits upper strata of classes receive I attribute this catagory more towards eating, exercise, and stress habits. Richer people may or may not be more healthy, but most companies have corporate or corporate sponsered gyms, healthy diets, and relativly lower levels of stress, since the greatest thing for someone to stress over is money.

What should we do?

1. Work on education and social encouragement to get behind education more so than athletics.
2. Promote public health through parks, clubs, associations, etc...
3. Supply benefits such as insurance, health care, and retirement benefits or profit sharing to minimum wage workers as within unions.

These things are currently done in one aspect of their everyday life, some just wish not to take advantage of them while others are flawed. Public awareness should be priority number 1.

	09-09-2003 23:32									#128
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I would also like to point out that I have NEVER had a minimum wage job. My first job (and I still work at the same place in a much higher position) paid $7/hour, and this was when I was in high school with no marketable skills whatsoever. I make a lot more than that, now, and all I had to do was to prove I wasn't an idiot, didn't steal, and could make good decisions.

Point is, anyone can do that.

	09-09-2003 23:34									#129
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pchang,

quote: What other methods would you advocate? Why are they better?

I wouldn't advocate any method, other than eliminating the minimum wage. This is better because, as Berzerker has pointed out, it doesn't force some labor out of the market by overvaluing it. No minimum wage also has the added benefit of not violating property rights.

quote: Why should the gap between haves and have nots be allowed to evolve on its own?

Because this "gap" is perfectly normal and natural and moral.

	09-09-2003 23:58									#130
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quote: If most people are agreed that Minimum Wage is just one tool to try and make sure that the gap between the haves and have nots does not grow too large...

Minimum wage causes a polarization with the poor - those who keep their jobs move forward, those who lose it move backwards.
No minimum wage causes a polarization between the middle class and the poor, one who can move onward towards upper class, the other who can only with a lot of work and education move towards middle class.

	10-09-2003 00:50									#131
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There are more difference in each income grouping itself than there are between the income groups as a whole. [/sad liberal excuse for when "victims" are shown in a bad light"]

	10-09-2003 02:19									#132
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Some first-world economies don't have a minimum wage and their societies work just fine, with lower unemployment and underemployment.

The story is that the vast majority of people move out of minimum wage jobs pretty quickly. They might not make it to easy street quickly or without some prepaid pain, but the vast majority steadily build their incomes.

	10-09-2003 02:26									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Far from it. Communists would never admit that the profit motive "is an indispensable factor throughout the earlier phases of civilization"

WRONG!

	10-09-2003 05:53									#134
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MrFun -

quote: Is David Floydd having too much influence on you these days, with his libertarian blabbering?

I see you still haven't supported your accusation that I "bastardized" his post.

MtG -

quote: You have to remember that in the Libertarian world (what I call the Liberterrarium) things are black and white. And the light is usually off, too.

Assuming your parents taught you stealing was wrong, how did you turn stealing into a grey issue? Did politicians convince you stealing was okay as long as you ask them to do the stealing?

	10-09-2003 06:06									#135
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara WRONG!

Interesting...I suppose where we really differ then is on the issue of whether cooperation should be voluntary or not.

	10-09-2003 06:11									#136
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue GePap, Link me studies that show education is a zero-sum game please. It's not.

When idd I argue it was zero-sum? If everyone has a BA, then you might as well as for a BA as a prerequsite for a job at McDonalds. All that happens is that the floor moves up. Por people in urpe aren't as poor as poor people in India: that does not mean they remain poor by definition. HOw is that zero-sum?

	10-09-2003 06:21									#137
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I wish some people would open up some Taco Bells in Manhattan. But of course by the time they were open, I'd have descending bowel cancer and unable to patronise said establishments.

	10-09-2003 06:26									#138
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There are several Taco Bells in Manhattan: just of my head, Take the A or F to west 4th street, get out, and on West fourth and 6th aenue there is a Taco Bell.

	10-09-2003 06:26									#139
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there's no taco bells in manhattan? thats ridiculous! you new yorkans need texmex!

	10-09-2003 06:28									#140
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quote: there's no taco bells in manhattan? thats ridiculous! you new yorkans need texmex!

As much as I liked Taco Bell in college (cheap and filling), it hardy counts as the height of Tex mex for moi. We have plenty of exican in this city, and more every day.

	10-09-2003 06:31									#141
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is taco bell really that cheap? they're not on every intersection like mcdonalds are so i havent gone there that much. when i was little, us going to taco bell was like a treat (getting some foreign food). can it compete with mcdonalds prices?

	10-09-2003 06:34									#142
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yes, it's really that cheap. I'm not anywhere near 4th and 6th - I don't think I've ever been out that way, and I sure as heck am not going to spend an hour on the A to get to a freaking Taco Bell. Tack on the $2 to take the train in the first place and I'm halfway to a gourmet freaking meal.

	10-09-2003 06:37									#143
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two dollars for a train ride in nyc? I swore i heard that philly's two dollars for a ride was the highest rate of any transit system in the country. nyc got the same rate?

	10-09-2003 06:41									#144
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin yes, it's really that cheap. I'm not anywhere near 4th and 6th - I don't think I've ever been out that way, and I sure as heck am not going to spend an hour on the A to get to a freaking Taco Bell. Tack on the $2 to take the train in the first place and I'm halfway to a gourmet freaking meal.

An Hour? 20 minutes TOPS, depending on the breaks (you are in 42nd street no?) Besides, 4th and sixth is right on top of bleeker street, with great Italian and incredable ice cream.., plus very close to Washington Square park and all the goodies those damned NYU students get. If a vegeterian, on 13th between 7th and 8th is one of the best organic food markets in NYC.

And yes, in NYC the rate is now $2 a ride.

	10-09-2003 06:48									#145
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Oh, there is a Taco Bell on 35th and 8th avenue as well, which is easy walking distance from Times Square.

	10-09-2003 06:57									#146
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damn... though Souteast PA transit authourity is now millions of dollars in debt and is cutting back service AND raising their rates... might hit 2.50 a ride soon. thats just plain ridiculous.

i hear bus drivers get paid a lot though... probably has something to do with why we're paying $2 a bus ride... ticks me off that i spend nearly an hour of work just working off my bus tokens.

	10-09-2003 07:03									#147
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The MTA said that it was either $2 this year, or no fare hike and then $2.60 the next year. They still really haven't ruled out further increases in the future. The thing is, the MTA gets at least 4 million riders daily, if not more. At the same time, they made the unlimited passes an even better deal than before.

	10-09-2003 07:20									#148
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quote: If everyone has a BA, then you might as well as for a BA as a prerequsite for a job at McDonalds. All that happens is that the floor moves up.

Exacttly. If everyone has a BA, the degree loses its value, and employers will look at graduate degrees to see who to hire.

	10-09-2003 07:23									#149
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"put down your bi-daily blunt..."

Indeed, like Ray Charles says, you've got to put down the ducky before you play the saxophone!!!

One point of interest, let's say that there was no more war, people lived in peace and liberty, and world military expenditure declined by, about 75%...

http://projects.sipri.org/milex/mex_world_graph.html


That would give the world at least a few hundred billion dollars to put into investments, or free up funds for governments to start up work projects, like construction of housing for the masses. Gee, that would be nice!!!

	10-09-2003 07:25									#150
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Unlimited passes probably mean less paperwork (simplified accounting) in the long run, plus the added benefit of all those riders who will never use it to it's fullest potential.

I suspect they're increasing fares to make them less palatable, more than any real financial need.