14-09-2003 06:15									#1
	The Spartan Academy Remove this text

Generals Theseus and Arrian should lead discussions of a military nature here. The first post after this one should be for current orders, plans, and objectives. The players will look there for guidance, as well as in the turn threads.

If the generals cannot participate in the turn threads, the first posts of this thread being up to date will be all that there is to guide the player(s).

LINKS FOR GAUL PLANNING

hypotethical plan to invade Lego (first ideas)

Discussions for planning the invasion of Legoland

Discussions of our defences once marines are available

These links are primarily in case the relevant dicussion threads drop off the first page or two for some reason.

Last edited by DeepO on 09-06-2004 at 21:15

	16-09-2003 19:05									#2
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	16-09-2003 19:07									#3
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Right. I've been thinking long term. Here is what I see:

We're barely holding our own on Bob.
RP has been badly hurt.
GoW has Leos.
Gunpowder isn't far off.

I know people want to invade GoW and do some damage. So do I. But I got to wondering: is that realistic? Can it be done? I'm not sure it can.

Then I thought "ok, assume for a moment that it ISN'T feasible, what the hell CAN we do?"

If we throw everything we have into repelling ND & GoW from the south of Spain, and then set up a perimeter defense line along the mountains west of Pamp while also covering Toledo, I think we could rebuild Spain while "under fire" so to speak.

And I do mean rebuild. I'm thinking about a huge effort here. We do the settling and most of the terrain improvement, while our army holds off the Arab & Chinese hordes. They take over cities and build them up. Key to this would be picking a FP site (since Pamp is by no means central in this vision of RP) and getting that going ASAP. That way, RP will have a decent empire with minimal corruption when they manage to fire their GA... and maybe we can turn that GA into the turning of the tide down the road.

Or am I nuts?

-Arrian

	17-09-2003 03:36									#4
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That warrants serious consideration.

The thing I am wondering about is, where are all those horsemen/riders that GoW is building? Are they waiting for the landing they suspect is coming?

	17-09-2003 05:50									#5
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Arrian:

You are not nuts, but it is not yet the time to assume a stalemate, and withdraw to simply re-building Spain (I don't mean simply as in simple, you are correct, it will be a huge effort... I mean 'just').

nye:

That's what I would do... until the joint ND / GoW 1-2-1-2 punch is entirely ready, I'd keep my second wave of Riders somewhere near Toledo, ready to:
1) Retreat north to counter an attack by GS
2) Move forward to the south as reinforcements in the event of a major battle or should Pamplona become a viable target
3) Attack Toledo

In fact, though I'd have to look at a map again, I'll bet I could predict where they'll be... 9 moves from whatever northern tile would be our greatest threat position and yet leave us vulnerable, and far enough west to remain hidden from GS kamikaze-Knight forward observers.

	17-09-2003 15:37									#6
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NYE described our war aims in the south as follows :

"Our forces in Southern Spain are there to destroy the captured cities, and to retake Salamanca (renamed Alamo) in the long run. This action is intended to hold GoW's attention there while we prepare the channel crossing." - nye

Are we holding GoW's attention in the south while we hit it in the north, or do we want to hold its attention in the north while hitting it in the south? We not going to retake spain *and* damage the GoW core are we?

With the talk of stalemate in the South, it doesn't look like we're about to retake anything does it, unless we divert some enemy strength?

I made a comment in the Turn thread about pushing pike stacks forward in the south.

On a similar theme, we could drop pike stacks from galleys onto hills/mnts near somewhere like Yellowknife next turn to raise the enemy heartbeat. Fortify the turn after and follow with more pikes and knights, and they're staring at a beach-head. Now how far south will those GoW stacks dare to patrol?

Would this give us the chance to strike at the GoW holdings in Spain? Or, are our ambitions in the south limited to holding on to what we've got?

MavDad is a possible site for a landing to distract ND, and it would be great to get a march on that chain of mountains heading straight at their core! However, it might not be ideal to encourage a enemy build up near Toledo.

In brief - if GoW are expecting an assault, let them draw inward and wait for it while we make gains. The alternative is to force them to commit their existing forces to the deep south, then land the invasion force in or near their core.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 17-09-2003 at 16:23

	17-09-2003 16:08									#7
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Thinking of what Arrian said, and if our overall aim is the prevention of a 2-civ Bob, plus the desire of our own production base there, rebuilding however much of Spain as is possible/appropriate looks good long term.

Our essential problem is that Stormia ultimately can't compete with Legoland for eventual power - military or space. By vasseling Spain (the price for their survival) and making it economically viable, we remove the need for our own palace on Bob. They research for us, and would fight Lego with us if it came to that. Meanwhile, dual-core Stormia enjoys a stronger economy too.

If all this is true, then the question remains 'how big a Spain'?

I'm not sure what expectation levels are for damaging enemy assets - beyond recapturing and holding territory. I guess a few smoking ruins where key GoW cities once stood is a beautiful thought for our alliance...

	17-09-2003 23:36									#8
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doh ... wrong about the PEF (PikeExpedFor) - it would take two turns, and I assumed they wouldn't get charged to death.

	18-09-2003 05:25									#9
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For a possible ruse, if we aren't actually planning on attacking GoW soon, we could mass the galleys and float them over to some northern point. That might draw forces back to the cities and delay an earlier 2nd wave south. Or perhaps we could time said diversion with a push of our real forces in the south. the trick would be to get GoW to see the galleys, ie them end in sea adjacent to ocean and in cultural radius, otherwise it would be obvious we want them to see us.

	21-09-2003 23:52									#10
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IMHO RP needs to move workers to that mountain north of Alamo and road it. Catapults will be necessary for a successful attack on Alamo - plus, they'll add reliability to our feint.

	22-09-2003 18:27									#11
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I don't think there is going to be an attack on the Alamo, at least not for a while.

We've lost too much of our attack strength on Bob (8 knights down).

-Arrian

	04-10-2003 22:47									#12
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It seems to me that our military strategy for Bob is becoming fairly clear.

It is time to take the fight to the enemy.

THE SOUTH

With RP's movements on Alamo, I think we would be mistaken to focus on Merida or or Essigbar. I suggest moving 10 Knights to Merida 63. If possible, I would like for either GS to capture Alamo, or for RP to gift it to us for one turn, so that we have mobility.

That said, what to do with slowmovers? Let's at least keep a threat going in the south, moving 3 Pikes and 5 MedInf to Merida 66, and the 2 adventuring Knights to Essigbar 9.

All other theatre forces should remain distributed on the hills.

In terms of reinforcements, we have a bit of a problem in terms of a galley constraint. We currently have only 5 southern Galleys to both transport 18-20 units in the relatively near term AND fend off 4 currently visible enemy Galleys.

I'd like to 1) bring the southernmost back north towards Barc, 2) keep transporting Knights as fast as we can, and 3) detail Monsoon, Whirlwind, and OG to Galleys as soon as they are done with cheap fastmover builds.

We should be ready to destroy the ND Galleys in the vicinity of Barc 2221.

THE NORTH

Redistribute the MedInf to take coastal duty.

Upgrade such that we have 16 Knights available in 290 AD.

I suggest that in 300AD we can have 8 Galleys ready for loading at Beta 4. On that turn, load 16 Knights.

In 310 AD, set sail and land at Yellowknife 332. 3-tile placement, it seems, is a horrible thing when faced by human-controlled Knights.

THE REST

Post the near term, I am tempted to suggest attacking ND across the east-central mountains and hills.

	05-10-2003 03:51									#13
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Oh man, I am an idiot... I meant move 10 Knights to ALAMO 63.

Sorry.

	05-10-2003 04:29									#14
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As SR points out in the turn thread, the attack on Merida is equally valid, and does support RP's attack on Alamo.

	06-10-2003 14:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Post the near term, I am tempted to suggest attacking ND across the east-central mountains and hills.

Last time I saw a save this looked pretty tempting to me too.

You say 'post the near term', so what would you envisage being done before then - damaging Gow, reclaiming parts of the south?

	07-10-2003 01:42									#16
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What did people think about my suggestion of switching O. Gale and Whirlwind to galley production (each could produce a galley in 3 turns). That would help with 1) moving our troops, and 2) killing ND's galleys.

Speaking of those enemy ships, we should try to coordinate with RP - their galley could attack first, sacrificing itself for the cause (even if it wins, the other two enemy ships will easily kill it). But then our guys come in and finish the job in numbers. The RP galley is mostly just eating up gpt at this point anyway.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 03:56									#17
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Yeah - I say go for the galleys. We must have a zillion land units we can't afford to upgrade and if they've got galleys floating around we need spare to deal with them.

	07-10-2003 17:54									#18
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yes, high priority on killing anyand all enemy naval units. we can't afford a landing on Stormia or eastern bob.

	08-10-2003 18:27									#19
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Originally PMed to Arrian on MZO last night:


Damn, am I scared for the Knights at Merida 63... the reason I wanted them at ALAMO 63 was the protection of a true-fortified Pike, and being a mountain.

* Theseus slaps himself with a very large and particularly foul-smelling wet trout.

I think I re-created SR's move...

First let me tell you what I think the current disposition of forces are:

* RP, of cours, has quite a bit going on around Alamo. That is also where I think the bulk of both ND and GoWs first wave are. I would expect ND's second wave to be split between Fort Lowenmut and Zerigossa, their two towns NW of Pamplona. [Edit: And GoW's second wave is probably near Anagramaskus, equally posed to defend against an attack by us in the north and to participate in the slaughter down south.]

* Our primary current southern force is in the hills to the east of Merida (which is empty, btw). We have:
10 Knights at 63
3 Pikes and 5 MedInf at 66
2 Pikes, 2 Knights, 1 MedInf, 1 Cat at 663
2 Pikes and 1 MedInf at each of 666, 6669, and 6666
We also have 2 Knights on the mountains at Essigbar 9.

* Southern re-inforcements:
1 RP Galley at Barc 2
1 Galley in the southwest seas (saw the ND Galleys)
2 Galleys at Sirocco 6 (bringing back 1 WC)
2 Galleys at OG 77
10 Knights, 1 Horse, and 2 WC in OG
1 Settler at OG 3
Various units coming along, including a Galley that was just started in Monsoon (6 turns without shortrushing)

* Northern forces
1 Galley guarding the pass
8 Galleys that can be assembled at Beta 4 the coming turn, 300 AD
A mixture of Pikes, MedInf, and Warriors guarding the coast (and a few in reserve)
In Beta: 14 Knights, 1 WC, 1 Warrior, 2 Pikes, 2 Spears
2 Spears at Beta 23

[Edit: Note, again, this is approximate, being from my re-creation of SR's play of Turn 290 AD.]
_________________________________

THE SOUTH

I fear the next few turns will be carnage for all in the south. Although everyone will be decimated there, what we have to worry about are ND and GoW second waves... we MUST get Knight reinforcements in place.

The problem is, we only have 4 Galleys to do it. I've never done the chaining thing much... somebody needs to figure out the most efficient way to 20+ units from OG to Sirocco.

On top of that, we (and the one RP Galley) will have to also destroy at least 3 ND Galleys in appr. 3 turns. On that note, I would like to suggest changing OG and Typhoon to Galleys, and cutting our iron again at the end of the coming turn.

The critical question: Is it even enough?

I think we'll know in the next turn or two. I'm hoping that ND and GoW will seek to destroy RP's forces, and fail, taking huge damage, and thus leaving our Knights in play.

* Theseus offers M&Ms to the RNG godz.

We'll see... if not, I scanned your and nye's thoughts re bringing everyone to the south... I think that should be our contigency plan if everything goes to hell in a handbasket

THE NORTH

I know that people want to go in with like 40 units... not necessary, IMHO, especially if we get a little lucky in the south.

The Galleys won't be assembled until 300 AD anyway... but they CAN be loaded in that year. I propose 8 Knights and 8 Pikes, for a landing in 310 AD at the mountain at YellowKnife 233.

If GoW's second wave is where I think it is, they can probably ready retreat to the hill at YK 11 in ONE TURN... even if they aren't thinking that strategically, from almost anywhere they can get to the vicinity in two turns. To me, that means we need a strong forward base, not in either enemy's territory... the above means we will have time to true-fortify most, if not all of the Pikes on a neutral mountain (added benefit: timing the cost of upgrades).

We can deliver the remaining Knights and a few more Pikes (10 units total) 2 turns later, freeing 3 Galleys (1 to move north and 2 to move south).

GENERAL COMMENTS

We need to take the fight to the enemy.

I agree, neither north nor south has enough troops involved to deliver a hammer blow... but both are more than survivable (or so we'll see in the next turn or two), both keep the pressure on, attacking the north wastes GoW 3-movers and will add to ND caution ("Are we next, across the Mavdad mountains?"), and doing both adds immeasurably to the complexity of the overall situation.

And THAT is critically important.

On the one hand, doves will say that we are fighting a futile and draining battle while Lego builds on.

On the other, I SAY, look at our friggin' production advantage!! We need TIME, time for South Stormia to overwhelm the southern enemy forces and aid in re-building RP.

SOME SIDE NOTES

* We desperately need to involve Vox and Lego in this. I don;t care so much about there actual military contribution... I really want just two things: 1) more complexity and confusion, and 2) please please please, an up-to-date map of Bob. I keep looking at the quality of the enemy's economics, esp. GoW, and have to believe that we can simply overwhelm them with production. I KNOW that feels like a slog, especially compared to the way we friggin' whack the AI civs in SP wars, but it is there for us, as I see it (or at least see it from the maps we have).

* Do we know how much gold and what spending needs RP has?

* We will have to open a new front onto ND as well at some point. I still think we should focus on the Mavdad mountains, with a similar Pike-heavy approach as in the north. Prior to that happening, we may want to send 1-2 of the remaining northern Galleys with the 2 heading south as a feint along the neutral coast, splitting them and sending them back to Beta somewhere around the gems in the Mavdad mountains (I gotta believe ND has some kind of sentry around there).

* Given the vast swathes of empty eastern Bobian coast... shouldn't we also be considering Settler landings?

* Once we have our upgrades done, we need to figure out a way towards Astro ASAP... that's a 50% boost in load capacity.

* And... finally... let's go back to the basics: How do we orchestrate ND-GoW backstab, in either direction?

Whew.

	09-10-2003 16:17									#20
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I like the idea of the Yellowknife landing.

This may not be a hammer-blow, but 26 units should still ruffle their feathers. I'd be concerned if I were them. They'll have a job dislodging them and as I see it, have no choice but to withdraw their Southern forces to defend the homeland. This takes the pressure off the South, assuming we're still there in two turns, and could allow our knights and subsequent reinforcements to consolidate the position in the south.

I reckon that the proposed landing will at the very least take the initiative from the enemy. They cannot push in the South and defend the ranch.

Waiting for a 40-unit build up also allows more GA-fuelled 3 movers to be built by our enemies, which can be deployed instantly, while our Knights drum their fingers on the Stormia sea-wall...

I've posted these comments on the Turn 145 thread too - I'm not sure which was the right one.

	09-10-2003 16:20									#21
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Just a thought: If GoW are paranoid about a GS landing - a 10 turn cease fire with RP would help them prepare their defenses.

	19-10-2003 00:33									#22
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NORTH

On the next turn, we will have 8 Galleys assembled at Beta4 (but not yet ready to move out).

They should be loaded with 12 Knights and 4 Pikes, and move out for a Yellowknife landing the following turn.

SOUTH

We need Galleys, desperately. We may want to switch OG from a Horse to a Galley.

BOB

I am still very worried about the Knights at Merida63... we'll see what happens.

	25-11-2003 07:08									#23
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WARMONGERS OF THE WORLD... UNITE!!

1) Assuming we pull off the GoW contract... how do we best coordinate to break ND (slowly, carefully ... or not!) together.

2) If we don;t contract GoW... WTF!! HELP!

3) It would be useful for someone to put thought into homeland defense, especially considering RP's exposure in the north, and also this concept of a WC screen on our east coast (not my strength).

	25-11-2003 15:47									#24
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Note to self : "don't ... upgrade ... any more ... WC"

	25-11-2003 19:41									#25
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How to break ND?

Our Knights in the south can make a joint attack with GoW's riders Northwest of Pamp into ND's spanish cities.

The landing force we dropped on GoW can be rerouted, with some reinforcements, and dropped on ND's east coast (not really their east coast, 'cause it's empty) to march westward. Meanwhile, GoW hits them from the North.

-Arrian

	27-11-2003 01:09									#26
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edit : obselete

Last edited by Cort Haus on 15-01-2004 at 20:21

	15-01-2004 20:28									#27
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Some good discussion about prospects for Industrial Era warfare have been going on in the lively and famous turn-162 thread.

Posters are hereby invited to continue and develop these discussions here on the Spartan Academy thread, if possible, so that ideas and debate are not lost in the turn archives ...

	16-01-2004 17:56									#28
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I've had a look at which of our towns connect to which in the event of a succesful amphibious invasion into one of our ports. The bad news is that with 3 move units, they can hit every one of our inland cities (and coastal cities for that matter, apart from Inchoff), starting from any port.

With 2 move units invading, taking any port south of Monsoon or Hurricans (including both cities) gives access to the entire south. Dissidentville, Santa Ana and the port next to SA (whose name I can neither remember nor read on the screenshots I have) from an isolated group across the middle - and invasion could take all three, but with two move units couldn't get any further. Everything from Inchoff upwards is isolated from the south with regard to two move units. EXCEPTION: if Dissidentville remains with its current lack of culture, that is a gateway from a northern invasion. It need to get to 100 culture to control D'ville 88, which is enough to protect it against a 2 move invasion from the north.

Invasions in RP territory at any port can chain through to Elipolis (they have to go through San Antonio with 2 move units), and can't get any further than Elipolis, Inchon and Winds of Change in a single turn.

So a pure tank invasion could take out all our good cities in one turn, landing in any of the southern ports, or take out RP and our three north-most cities with a northern invasion. If they are daft enough to invade the D-ville belt they get three towns. A cavalry / ansar / rider invasion can in principle take everything in one turn, and has no problems with artillery support for cavalry attacks (although the artillery will have to be stationed outside of towns).

Sticking to talking about 2 move units, there aren't reall any funnel points for fighting in the south, beyond the fact that the only route between the west coast towns and the southeast is through Sandstorm and then Eye of the Storm. EotS can only be reached from Hurricane, Cyclone or Sandstorm. Sandstorm can only be reached from EotS, Arashi and Tempest.

Diagram to follow.

	16-01-2004 18:28									#29
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vulture, does this take into effect RRs? most likely everything will be RRed once we fear invasions...

And, are there possible foritifications we can make that would interrupt the flow? I'm thinking on fortyfying the Spines for instance: mountains, with forts and infs. are tough to take, even with tanks.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 18:43									#30
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This is assuming railroads - otherwise they won't have enough moves even with 3 movers over roads to do the whole lot in one turn. I'm wishing we had barricades as an option now - forcing them to end their turn in that square. I'm not sure fortifying the spines is the best move - all traffic across them pretty much has to go through Arashi or Tempest, and metropolises on hills (which they will be then) with infantry and artillery are going to be as good as forts on mountains.