15-09-2003 22:25									#1
	Do we Americans have to let everything linger? (9th Circuit Court Delays Recall) Tired of ads?

So the 9th circuit has to go an ruin everything. Now the recall election is being put off. This, of course, means even MORE time that it will be in the media.

I have had issues with the 9th circuit, only because I don't think its an impartial court (duh).

When will it end?!

	15-09-2003 22:27									#2
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The 9th circuit gets over turned on appeal all the time. The San Fransisco leftists just love to make rulings basded upon politics and not the law so they get smeared in the appeals courts all the time.

	15-09-2003 22:28									#3
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I have $5 that says the recall goes ahead as the law orders and this judge will get told to shut up.

	15-09-2003 22:45									#4
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9th Circuit Court

The California Constitution clearly provided for a recall. There is absolutely no legal reason to delay it. This is clearly political.

	15-09-2003 22:47									#5
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The 9th Circuit Court is WRONG!!!

I hope that the Supreme Court can hear this right away and stop these fools. I had a feeling that they would do this crap.

	15-09-2003 22:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 9th Circuit Court The California Constitution clearly provided for a recall. There is absolutely no legal reason to delay it. This is clearly political.

Yeap. The same system that will be in use for the recall was used to elect Gray Davis, so is that election messed up too??

	15-09-2003 22:55									#7
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 9th Circuit Court The California Constitution clearly provided for a recall. There is absolutely no legal reason to delay it. This is clearly political.

Well, that's not entirely true. It has to do with 6 counties that still use the dreaded Punch Card Ballots. They want the recall delayed until those can be replaced (March).

	15-09-2003 22:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Well, that's not entirely true. It has to do with 6 counties that still use the dreaded Punch Card Ballots. They want the recall delayed until those can be replaced (March).

Then why did not they sue to have the election in Nov 2002 to be delayed untill March 2004??? There is nothing wrong with Punch Cards, we have been using them for over a 100 years.

	15-09-2003 23:11									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Then why did not they sue to have the election in Nov 2002 to be delayed untill March 2004??? There is nothing wrong with Punch Cards, we have been using them for over a 100 years.

A clasic example of shooting off your mouth without knowing the facts.

The truth is that the ACLU did sue the State of California before the 2002 election. California settled with the ACLU, saying that it could not feasably upgrade the voting systems before the upcoming election, but would do so before the next election. Neither the ACLU nor California expected to have an election 11 months after the last one, but the consent decree still holds, and by holding this election without upgrading the machines, California is violating its consent decree, which has the force of law.

	15-09-2003 23:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A clasic example of shooting off your mouth without knowing the facts. The truth is that the ACLU did sue the State of California before the 2002 election. California settled with the ACLU, saying that it could not feasably upgrade the voting systems before the upcoming election, but would do so before the next election. Neither the ACLU nor California expected to have an election 11 months after the last one, but the consent decree still holds, and by holding this election without upgrading the machines, California is violating its consent decree, which has the force of law.

The same argument that was used for the 2002 election not to be delayed could be used for the recall, and that is my main point. Punch Cards are not as bad as the ACLU makes them out to be.

	15-09-2003 23:16									#11
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I'm too mad at the stupidity of my peers that I just am not going to bother gripping about it any more... maybe tomorrow.

	15-09-2003 23:17									#12
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Less than 1% error rate to 4% error rate. If your vote is the one that gets knocked out, it matters a lot.

No one was arguing that they had to dealy the 2002 election. What California said was whtat it could not upgrade the machines by then. Now we're talking about a four month delay, which is not necessarily unreasonable.

And what do you care, given that it looks like Bustamonte is gonna win if the recall goes through?

	15-09-2003 23:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Less than 1% error rate to 4% error rate. If your vote is the one that gets knocked out, it matters a lot. No one was arguing that they had to dealy the 2002 election. What California said was whtat it could not upgrade the machines by then. Now we're talking about a four month delay, which is not necessarily unreasonable. And what do you care, given that it looks like Bustamonte is gonna win if the recall goes through?

Yes it is unreasonable when we have a governor like Gray Davis in office. If you know what you are doing when you are using the punch cards and are carefull it can be done accurately. With the touch screen voting that too can have problems.

Also anther thing if it was held in Oct, like it is by California Consitution requied to be held, then we could get this whole thing over with. Then etheir Gray Davis is kicked out, or he keeps his job and he can go on doing the his job untill 2006.

	15-09-2003 23:20									#14
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As a Republican not saddled with living in California, can see strategic benefits to a Bustamonte win.

I wouldn't wish it on them, though.

	15-09-2003 23:22									#15
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That's 4 more months that Davis has to fvck with this state... heck, who knows, in four months Davis might just sell us back to the Mexicans and cause the complete destruction of America... This is fvck'd, if people are too stupid to use a brainless punch card than they should just obstain from voting altogether...

Man, I'm too tired for this.

	15-09-2003 23:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Yes it is unreasonable when we have a governor like Gray Davis in office. If you know what you are doing when you are using the punch cards and are carefull it can be done accurately. With the touch screen voting that too can have problems.

BUt not as many...so your point is that California should not have held its 2002 elections? If I remember correctly McClintock got elected in those elections, as did the ENTIRETY OF CALIFORNIA'S HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE'S DELEGATION. But yup, that entire election should have been postponed...

The 2002 deal was resonable (it is not feasable to hold up voting for over 40 members of the federal congress, and I assume most california legislative posts, including the governor), but preparing for the next scheduled federal elections was. The ruling on the face of it is sound: if the state of california agreed those machines did not meet constitutional muster in march 2004, how on earth do they meet constitutional muster in Oct. 2003?

	15-09-2003 23:28									#17
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Most of the errors caused by punch cards are caused by faulty machines. For example, here in Duval county, the punch card boxs hadn't been cleaned in years, so that the cards couldn't even be punched. This was the source of the infamous dimpled chad. Interestingly, none of the white districts had this problem, only the Black districts.

	15-09-2003 23:29									#18
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Fabulous, how is it that you have a custom avatar with total post count = 142?

	15-09-2003 23:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Japher heck, who knows, in four months Davis might just sell us back to the Mexicans and cause the complete destruction of America...

Are you really that stupid?

	15-09-2003 23:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GePap BUt not as many...so your point is that California should not have held its 2002 elections? If I remember correctly McClintock got elected in those elections, as did the ENTIRETY OF CALIFORNIA'S HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE'S DELEGATION. But yup, that entire election should have been postponed... The 2002 deal was resonable (it is not feasable to hold up voting for over 40 members of the federal congress, and I assume most california legislative posts, including the governor), but preparing for the next scheduled federal elections was. The ruling on the face of it is sound: if the state of california agreed those machines did not meet constitutional muster in march 2004, how on earth do they meet constitutional muster in Oct. 2003?

No that is not my point. There was nothing wrong with the Nov 2002 elections, and the same agrument that were used not to delay the election or force the state to replace their system could be used for the recall election.

	15-09-2003 23:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Fabulous, how is it that you have a custom avatar with total post count = 142?

Post count reductions. Fabulous has been a bad boy.

	15-09-2003 23:30									#22
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so you're saying that blacks aren't bright enough to use voting machines che?

	15-09-2003 23:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www No that is not my point. There was nothing wrong with the Nov 2002 elections, and the same agrument that were used not to delay the election or force the state to replace their system could be used for the recall election.

That's incorrect. There was a higher error rate in the six counties still using punch cards.

	15-09-2003 23:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Most of the errors caused by punch cards are caused by faulty machines. For example, here in Duval county, the punch card boxs hadn't been cleaned in years, so that the cards couldn't even be punched. This was the source of the infamous dimpled chad. Interestingly, none of the white districts had this problem, only the Black districts.

So if the system is properly maintain then there would not be that problem. The same thing can happen with touch screen voting, and a unknow bug could cause problems.

	15-09-2003 23:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's incorrect. There was a higher error rate in the six counties still using punch cards.

Why is this? Is it the system they use or other factors??? What if they have a high error rate with the touch screen voting??

	15-09-2003 23:32									#26
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so you're saying that blacks aren't bright enough to use voting machines che?

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saynig.

Or maybe, the Republican controled county made sure that the voting machines in white districts were in proper working order but weren't quite so vigilant with the districts that were more likely to vote Democratic.

	15-09-2003 23:33									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www No that is not my point. There was nothing wrong with the Nov 2002 elections, and the same agrument that were used not to delay the election or force the state to replace their system could be used for the recall election.

After the 2002 elections the State of California agreed that having punch-card in some counties and not all violated equal protection due to a greater chance of error inherent in the punch-card system and agreed to hold the next election without punch-cards. This whole sorry mess came out of nowhere, but the case that has to be made is that the deal california signed on to, saying the next elections will be held without punch-cards, is invalid for the Recall but valid for the elections in March...which brings forward the question of why?

	15-09-2003 23:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saynig. Or maybe, the Republican controled county made sure that the voting machines in white districts were in proper working order but weren't quite so vigilant with the districts that were more likely to vote Democratic.

Oh please give me a break.

	15-09-2003 23:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Less than 1% error rate to 4% error rate. If your vote is the one that gets knocked out, it matters a lot.

The difference I saw was a 2% vs 1% error rate and nearly all errors were caused by idiots who were to stupid to follow clearly written directs (I.E. please punch one and only one candidate for govnor). If these people are two stupid to understand they can't vote two or more times in a single election then they deserve to be ignored.

	15-09-2003 23:35									#30
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Why? Because Californian Democrats are void of logic