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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The 9th circuit gets over turned on appeal all the time. The San Fransisco leftists just love to make rulings basded upon politics and not the law so they get smeared in the appeals courts all the time. |
While your statement may not be technically incorrect, it is highly misleading. Conservatives love to hype how often the 9th Circuit Court decisions are overturned, but they are actually overturned less often on a percentage basis than some of the more conservative district courts. Here's a letter to the New York Times in which Judge John T. Noonan JR. responds to a similar allegation by citing statistics on the issue.
quote:
Court Statistics
To the Editor:
Re ''Court That Ruled on Pledge Often Runs Afoul of Justices'' (front page, June 30), about the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit:
If a fallible human being has a 1 percent error rate and does 100 problems, he will get 1 problem wrong. If he does 500 problems, he will get 5 wrong. If a second person does only 100 problems, he will make four fewer mistakes than a person who does 500 problems. This does not make him more accurate.
In the calendar year 2001, the Ninth Circuit terminated 10,372 cases, and was reversed in 14, with a correction rate of 1.35 per thousand. The Fourth Circuit, reputedly the most conservative circuit and the circuit with the second-largest number of cases reviewed by the Supreme Court, terminated 5,078 cases and was reversed in 7, making a correction rate of 1.38 per thousand.
JOHN T. NOONAN JR.
U.S. Circuit Judge, 9th Circuit
San Francisco, July 1, 2002
Published: 07 - 06 - 2002 , Late Edition - Final , Section A , Column 6 , Page 12 |
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...754C0A9649C8B63
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Hmmm, and what about the last five or ten years? I'd wager that if we look at more then just the last year then we'll find the 9th circuit will have a much higher "error rate". You're picking the 9ths best year and ignoring their track record of incompetence from all the previous years. |
Could you show stats then? The Court Justice was citing the most recently completed year at the time in his letter.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
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HERE is an interesting site.
quote:
Notably, the 9th Circuit accounted for both 30 percent of the cases (24 of 80) and 30 percent of the reversals (18 of 59) the Supreme Court decided by full written opinions this term. In addition, the 9th Circuit was responsible for more than a third (35%, or 8 of 23) of the High Court’s unanimous reversals that were issued by published opinions. Thus, on the whole, the 9th Circuit’s rulings accounted for more reversals this past term than all the state courts across the country combined and represented nearly half of the overturned judgments (45%) of the federal appellate courts. |
Dealing directly with the issue you brought up:
quote:
Many legal experts attribute the High Court’s frequent review of 9th Circuit decisions to that court’s staggering size — with a full complement of 28 judges, the 9th Circuit has more judges than any other federal appellate court and exercises jurisdiction over California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Alaska, Hawaii, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands. But if the 9th Circuit’s gigantic caseload is to explain away its record in the U.S. Supreme Court, then the frequency of review and reversal should at least correspond to its size and the percentage of federal appellate cases it hears. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Although the 9th Circuit’s caseload comprised approximately 17% of the federal appellate cases terminated in the year ending March 31, 2002, its decisions accounted for close to half (43%) of all the federal appellate decisions reviewed by the Supreme Court this past term. Comparatively, the 5th Circuit decided nearly 14% of federal appeals cases, but accounted for only 5.4% of the Supreme Court’s docket. The third largest federal appeals court, the 11th Circuit, accounted for nearly 13% of federal appellate caseload, but only 7.1% of the cases decided by the Supreme Court originated there.
This means that, on average, a case from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit was more than twice as likely to be reviewed and produce a written decision by the U.S. Supreme Court than was a case from the other federal appeals courts. By contrast, a case from the second busiest circuit, the 5th, was nearly a third less likely to be reviewed and decided by the High Court than the average federal appellate case. |
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
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Another good quote.
quote:
It is true that the overall reversal rate of the 9th Circuit (75%) was lower than that of other federal appellate courts — most notably the 4th, 5th, 8th and 10th Circuits, which were all reversed 100% of the time this past term. Yet these “complete” reversal rates are likely due to much less frequent review of those circuits by the U.S. Supreme Court. Specifically, the High Court decided only eight cases from the 4th, 5th, 8th and 10th Circuits combined (three from the 4th, three from the 5th, one from the 8th, and one from the 10th), compared with the 24 cases the Supreme Court took up from the 9th. Thus, the 9th Circuit’s lower overall reversal rate does not demonstrate the justices’ greater agreement with the decisions of the 9th Circuit, but is likely attributable to that circuit’s much higher review rate. Such a conclusion is only reinforced by the fact that the more than half (57%, or 8 of 14) of the federal appellate decisions the Supreme Court unanimously overturned came from the 9th Circuit. This means that a full one-third (8 of 24) of the 9th Circuit cases decided by the High Court were unanimously overturned. |
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Notably, the 9th Circuit accounted for both 30 percent of the cases (24 of 80) and 30 percent of the reversals (18 of 59) Thus, on the whole, the 9th Circuit’s rulings accounted for more reversals this past term than all the state courts across the country combined and represented nearly half of the overturned judgments (45%) of the federal appellate courts. |
This data strikes me as extremely odd given that its only 4 cases more being overturned than the previous year. At least in 2001, a similar number put the 9th Circuit below the average of other court systems in being overturned. In fact, given the 2001 statistics directly coverted into the 2002 figures, between the 9th Circuit and the Fourth circuit they would account for 66% of the total for the federal appellate courts! Either the number of overturned cases was reduced radically for 2002, these two courts have an amazingly high percentage of the total number of cases overturned as a rule, or the stats from the link you cited are bogus!
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
You're telling me that there were incorrect stats on judicial matters presented in a letter to the New York Times by a NINTH CIRCUIT JUDGE and no Republicans noticed and decided to publicize this fact? This would be the perfect way to prove the dishonesty of the court and call for the impeachment of Judge JOHN T. NOONAN |
How do you know that no Republicans sent editorials to the NY Times? Seeing as they wouldn't be judges, I'm not sure they'd get great play on the op-ed page. Have you scanned all the NY Times op-ed pages to make sure no one disputed the facts?
And why would this be an impeachable offense? He isn't under oath when writing to a paper.
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My point is that there are all sorts of convervative news sources out there, Drudge, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, etc., but no-one seems to have publicized anything about this letter when I ran a google search. Convervatives have plenty of ways to point out the misdeeds of liberals.
On the impreachment issue, I didn't say it woud be justified, just that they would call for it. I've seen all sorts of convervative schemes to undermine the 9th Circuit Court of appeals. I.E. create a 12 circuit that would take over have the juristication and split the judges from the 9th circuit between the two and stack the rest of each court with dedicated conservatives.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
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quote:
My point is that there are all sorts of convervative news sources out there, Drudge, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, etc., but no-one seems to have publicized anything about this letter when I ran a google search. |
 How many of these news sources have even heard of this letter? This is the first I'm hearing of it, and I follow the news pretty well. I mean, it took people on this site not to long to counter the Justice's stats with other stats. I'm sure if you showed it to Rush, you'd have similar response.
One would also think that the liberal news sources (CNN, ABCnews) would bring this up whenever someone talks about the 9th Cir being overturned so much.
quote:
I've seen all sorts of convervative schemes to undermine the 9th Circuit Court of appeals. I.E. create a 12 circuit that would take over have the juristication and split the judges from the 9th circuit between the two and stack the rest of each court with dedicated conservatives. |
They probably should add another Circuit. The 9th encompases an incredibly amount of people and population. Compare that to the 3nd Circuit, which is basically just three Mid-Atlantic states (and Puerto Rico, interestingly enough).
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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Not only that, but you'll have complaints and lawsuits by people with vision difficulties over the machines.
quote:
Voters with disabilities sue Jacksonville over access
Nov. 12, 2001 - A national disability rights group and three disabled Floridians filed a class action lawsuit against Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris and the Duval County Supervisor of Elections last week following the County's decision to purchase inaccessible voting equipment.
"Duval County has decided to purchase approximately 300 new voting machines. No more than four of the machines will be accessible to voters with disabilities and those machines, if purchased, will be located at election headquarters," says the Washington, DC-based American Association of Persons with Disabilities, who filed the suit along with the Florida residents. "There are nearly 300 polling places in the city of Jacksonville."
AAPD maintains that the county's purchase of inaccessible machines is a violation of federal law under the Americans with Disabilities Act and a violation of the Florida Constitution that guarantees each citizen the right to a "direct and secret vote."
"We've been struggling for years to get local election officials to give us adequate voting access. When it comes to accessible voting technology, we are told it is too expensive," said Jim Dickson, vice president of AAPD. "Duval County is in the process of purchasing new equipment. Why, more than ten years after the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, is Duval County discriminating against disabled voters by replacing old inaccessible voting equipment with new inaccessible voting equipment? And why is the Secretary of State allowing it?"
"This error in judgment by election officials in Duval County comes just one year after the Florida ballot debacle," said Lois Williams, senior counsel for litigation for the non-profit Washington Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs and co-counsel for the plaintiffs. "Their decision now will affect the rights of disabled voters for the next twenty years. As election officials in jurisdictions across the country consider the purchase of new voting equipment, they must also consider the rights of disabled voters."
In Florida, a county cannot purchase or use a voting machine that has not been certified by the Florida Department of State," says the non-profit Washington Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs, which is handling the suit.
Plantiffs say that currently the Florida Department of State authorizes the purchase of two types of voting systems - optical scan and touchscreen. Optical scan voting systems do not allow voters with visual or manual impairments to cast a direct and secret ballot. The touchscreen system is accessible to the visually impaired only when modified with voice capability. With other modifications, the touchscreen system can be made accessible for voters with manual impairments. Duval County is considering the purchase of no more than four touchscreen machines.
"Over half of all polling places in America are not fully accessible to people in wheelchairs; for the 10 million blind and low vision Americans, exercising the right to vote does not currently include casting an independent secret ballot," said Dickson. "Americans with disabilities should not have to sue every jurisdiction in the country just to exercise their right to vote."
A copy of the complaint filed in the U.S. District Court in Jacksonville is available to reporters and editors by contacting Jim Dickson at (202) 262-8240. |
http://www.accessiblesociety.org/to...flavotesuit.htm
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I think the 9th Circuit should also void the remedy. Since the settlement of the 2000 case in 2001, at least two statewide elections have been held. Numerous candidates were elected, including Davis. Numerous ballot propositions were decided. All of this elections should be declared VOID under the reasoning of the 9th Circus opinion - they were all unconstitutionally decided using punched ballots where, according to the court, minorities are not as capable as non minorities in punching the holes in the ballot.
And oh, by the way, isn't anyone complete appalled by this latter finding, without evidence, that minorities cannot punch a ballot as well as non minorities. That finding, by itself, is OUTRAGEOUS. |
I sure am. They based this stupid idea based on a study that Davis supplied the court. I heard on the news that is was totaly based on self reporting by
minority voters and weather or not they thought the wrong person was elected.
The major part of the ACLU case was that stupid study and they try to say that minorities could not use the punch card ballets as well as white voters and when ask why this is the case they said they did not know. I heard them on the news at a press conference say this very thing with my own ears. The more I hear about this ruling the more I am convinced that it is a bad one.
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Jack_www
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Today I heard on the news that most of what the ACLU based their law suit has huge holes in it.
The First is that election officals say that the error rate includes people that chose not to vote for a certain question or vote for two people. That these people did not do it on accident but wanted to do this, in the first case because they dont want to vote for anyone that is running for office or in the second case they can't make up their minds so they vote for two people.
Anther problem in the ACLU arguments is that 2 of the counties with the highest error rates, around 3% are made up of mostly white voters not black voters.
The third problem is that the study they based their whole agrument on was funded by a company that makes touch screen voting machines and wanted to show that punch card ballots are bad in order so that they could sell more of their machines.
And finially, California law clearly lays out what counts as a vote and what does not in elections that use punch card ballots. This is different form Florida where there is no such laws and the cause of the law suits that resulted. Thus a Florida style problems with the punch cards would not happen here in California.
There is also many local elections that will be held in the state on Nov 2003 for local offices, so this may even delay these elections as well and cause huge problems.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I note with approval that there are no Apolyton members who are continuing to defend the 9th Circuit opinion. Congratulations! |
Yes my opion of the posters of Apolyton went up 200%.
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16-09-2003 07:30
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