15-09-2003 23:35									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www The same thing can happen with touch screen voting, and a unknow bug could cause problems.

That is my biggest fear, since they are abandoning a paper record. Since the companies which make these machines are, by and large, owned by Republicans, and we've seen time and again recently that the GOP doesn't care about the will of the electorate, we couls see a lot of Republicans elected even when polls show them slipping in support. After all, there will be no record to prove otherwise.

	15-09-2003 23:36									#32
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Well, then lets test general intelligence by having all counties have the same voting machines, or at least machines with statistically equal chances of mistakes...

	15-09-2003 23:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GePap After the 2002 elections the State of California agreed that having punch-card in some counties and not all violated equal protection due to a greater chance of error inherent in the punch-card system and agreed to hold the next election without punch-cards. This whole sorry mess came out of nowhere, but the case that has to be made is that the deal california signed on to, saying the next elections will be held without punch-cards, is invalid for the Recall but valid for the elections in March...which brings forward the question of why?

You could argue that this meant the 2004 election, because not one thought this through ahead of time that any other election before that could be held and not delayed. When California agreed to this that is what they meant in sprit if not the letter of the law. So the voters have to suffer through 4 more months of Davis because California did not think everything through and the ACLU is using a loop hole to delay the election?

	15-09-2003 23:37									#34
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The state agreed to change systems by 2004 but never admited that the punch system had any problems. It is well with in its right to continue the current election as mandated by the state's constitution and change the machines next year as they previously agreed.

	15-09-2003 23:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The difference I saw was a 2% vs 1% error rate and nearly all errors were caused by idiots who were to stupid to follow clearly written directs (I.E. please punch one and only one candidate for govnor). If these people are two stupid to understand they can't vote two or more times in a single election then they deserve to be ignored.

	15-09-2003 23:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saynig. Or maybe, the Republican controled county made sure that the voting machines in white districts were in proper working order but weren't quite so vigilant with the districts that were more likely to vote Democratic.

i think my suggestion makes more sense than your one

	15-09-2003 23:39									#37
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some would call the recall a loophole.

counties are responsible for holding the voting, if a county didn't bother to upgrade their machines then f-them...

Also, from the sounds of it, it is not the error of the machine that is the problems but stupid people...

	15-09-2003 23:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Oh please give me a break.

Okay, which arm?

Here are the facts. Duval county is controled by the Republicans. The machines in the white districts were properly maintained and cleaned. The machines in the Black districts were not. How could that happen, again, and again, and again, and again, basically for so many elections that the election machines were totally filled with chads?

	15-09-2003 23:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Okay, which arm? Here are the facts. Duval county is controled by the Republicans. The machines in the white districts were properly maintained and cleaned. The machines in the Black districts were not. How could that happen, again, and again, and again, and again, basically for so many elections that the election machines were totally filled with chads?

I would not assume that there is racism involved or trying to effect the results of an election. Maybe in those districts people thought someone cleaned the machines, maybe those areas were poorer and did not have the money, maybe someone forgot. I could come up with many reasons other then what you say for the difference. And we both dont have proof to back up any one of them.

	15-09-2003 23:44									#40
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BTW of the six counties which are still using punch cards half are majority Democrat (places like LA county) and half are majority Republican (places like San Diego county). The difference isn't nearly as big as some people are claiming.

	15-09-2003 23:44									#41
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Maybe they were too lazy to clean the machines and too dumb too realize that dirty machines would mess with the voting...

	15-09-2003 23:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Japher some would call the recall a loophole. counties are responsible for holding the voting, if a county didn't bother to upgrade their machines then f-them... Also, from the sounds of it, it is not the error of the machine that is the problems but stupid people...

When an expert on voting systems turns up, then the relative error rate of these machines can be discussed. Though it brings up the question of why, if this system works so well, anyone spent the money to upgrade to other systems, I mean, why fix what ins't broken? And yet now only the poor distrcist have these machines...I wonder why?

As for the counties..well, they would hold the elections in 2004 as well, and Cali. agreed to upgrade all these machines.

As for Oerdin's post:

That to me seems the only plausble arguement against this decision, that these are special circumstances and that the state constitution should take precedent in this case to any deal agreed upon by the state.

	15-09-2003 23:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap When an expert on voting systems turns up, then the relative error rate of these machines can be discussed. Though it brings up the question of why, if this system works so well, anyone spent the money to upgrade to other systems, I mean, why fix what ins't broken? And yet now only the poor distrcist have these machines...I wonder why? As for the counties..well, they would hold the elections in 2004 as well, and Cali. agreed to upgrade all these machines.

Maybe because they have less money and less workers to replace the system faster then other areas. I would not assume racism or a Republican plot. Calfornia is a Democrat controlled state.

I dont think that punch card voting is all that bad. ANd many people are saying that with the new system their could be problems because a lot of people wont know how to use it and will be use to the punch card system. Also many counties say that using punch card system is better and it is a tried and true system where as the touch screen voting their are many unknows.

	15-09-2003 23:48									#44
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The main reason for changing the voting system was to settle lawsuites filed by leftist groups after the Presidential elections. The leftists claimed the system was biased against them and it is very very difficult to prove a system is not biased. Please note the leftist groups like the ACLU never claimed they could prove the system was biased they simply demanded the state prove it wasn't.

The state agreed to spend truck loads of money on new electronic machines just to avoid the appearance of a bias.

	15-09-2003 23:49									#45
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Democrats can be racist too.

	15-09-2003 23:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The main reason for changing the voting system was to settle lawsuites filed by leftist groups after the Presidential elections. The leftists claimed the system was biased against them and it is very very difficult to prove a system is not biased. Please note the leftist groups like the ACLU never claimed they could prove the system was biased they simply demanded the state prove it wasn't. The state agreed to spend truck loads of money on new electronic machines just to avoid the appearance of a bias.

blah, blah, blah blah ....

nice rant..any facts there bucko? It would be nice if these kinds of dribble went out of style.

Maybe it would be best for the state to take over funding of elections from counties, and then equiped all counties in the state with the same machines, to insure that there are no difference in how the votes of individuals are tabulated within the state..thus insuring that all votes be counted equally, as the constitution requires.

Better spend a large amount of money creating a fair and effecitve system of suffrage than to have problems with the carrying out of democratic elections...

quote: Democrats can be racist too.

Yes they can...and the point?

	15-09-2003 23:59									#47
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quote: I would not assume racism or a Republican plot. Calfornia is a Democrat controlled state.

Seems to me like people are lumping racism with being Republican...

	15-09-2003 23:59									#48
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous They want the recall delayed until those can be replaced (March).

And I guess it is just a coincidence that March happens to be the Democrat primary election?

This is purely a political move to keep Davis in power.

	16-09-2003 00:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat And I guess it is just a coincidence that March happens to be the Democrat primary election? This is purely a political move to keep Davis in power.

Do you even read the thread in general? This issue has more than adequtely taken up..keep up.

	16-09-2003 00:04									#50
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How many recounts will you have this time? How many people with name similar to a felon will be rejected?

	16-09-2003 00:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Seems to me like people are lumping racism with being Republican...

I was just talking about my adopted state. While I certainly implied that racism may have been a factor, I didn't say it (though it's certainly the most likely). In re: Cali, I just stuck to what I knew.

Given that, all I've said is that the case has some merit and deserves a hearing. Personally, I think Oerdin is correct. A constituional mandate trumps a concent decree. On the other hand, the 14th Amendment trumps any state constitution, which is why it should be heard by a court.

	16-09-2003 00:41									#52
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OMG the conservatives in this thread are so ****ing stupid.

	16-09-2003 00:43									#53
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quote: OMG the conservatives in this thread are so ****ing stupid.

Que? Como?

	16-09-2003 01:09									#54
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I think Che and GePap have their facts wrong on the timing of the settlement of the prior case. Here is a quote from the 9th Circus opinion indicating the the settlement permitted elections to be held under the old system until Jan. 1, 2002.

"The Secretary’s decertification rendered most of the underlying issues in Common Cause I moot, except the question of remedy. The Common Cause Plaintiffs had requested that the Votomatic and Pollstar pre-scored punchcard systems be replaced prior to the 2004 primary or general election. On that question, the district court held that it was “plainly feasible for the PPC counties to
convert to ‘other certified voting equipment’ by March 2004.” Order, Common Cause I at 3. The parties then entered into an agreement under which the decertification of the punchcard voting systems would be advanced to March 1, 2004, in time for the next regularly scheduled statewide election. To effectuate the
settlement, the parties submitted to a consent decree embracing the settlement terms, which was approved by the district court. Judgment was entered. No appeal was taken from the Court’s entry of judgment or any order issued in Common Cause I. Since the entry of judgment, primary and general elections were held in 2002, along with numerous local elections."

Plainly, numerous elections were held since the settlement and the scheduled implementation date, Jan. 1, 2004. Without more, it clearly appears like bootstrapping to conclude that the current election is somehow in violation of he consent decree.

	16-09-2003 01:12									#55
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Here is the Circus opinion itself.

Attachment: cal.recall.pdf
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	16-09-2003 01:15									#56
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How are the facts mentioned wrong?

The issue remains as you stated it: the State agreed to decertify the punch-card machines for the March 2004 election and replace them: so the issue then is: well, now this re-call is the next election, and all the reasons for which the state agreed to remove those types of machines are as valid now as they were when the deal was signed.
As for numerous elections: which state-wide elctions have been held since nov. 2002?

	16-09-2003 01:18									#57
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BTW, why is this case no res judicata? It is the same case as previously litigated, by he same parties. That case has a consent judgment. The only question should be is whether the current case is in violation of the court order.

Since it plainly is not, there is something fundamentally flawed with this decision from a res judicata point of view.

	16-09-2003 01:23									#58
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****in' hilarious. Can't wait for the courtroom drama. Maybe Arnie could even get a guest appearance in that soap.

	16-09-2003 01:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Okay, which arm? Here are the facts. Duval county is controled by the Republicans. The machines in the white districts were properly maintained and cleaned. The machines in the Black districts were not. How could that happen, again, and again, and again, and again, basically for so many elections that the election machines were totally filled with chads?

In both Knox County (TN) and Gwinnett County (GA) the machines do not just "sit" in the district where they are used between elections, they go to a central location (a warehouse in both places) where somebody from the Dept. of Elections comes by and inspects and certifies the machines by the next election. I have no idea (rather, my wife has no idea as she, a regular election worker since 1992, is the one who supplied me with this info)) if the same machines are used in the same districts, time and again.

Going by what you are saying, Che, the machines are just left in the school gym until the next election. Don't people remove the things?

Anyway, could you provide a cite for your statement? Thanks.

	16-09-2003 01:26									#60
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GePap, I believe, based the fact that the settlement was entered in 2001 IIRC, that all elections conducted in 2002 were subject to the settlement decree. That includes the election of Gray Davis as governor.