17-09-2003 22:05									#121
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I wish I had a digital camera... I would have a fun time with it... Go around the courthouse like it's a Funhouse, taking pictures, laughing at paintings and molesting statues...

	17-09-2003 22:06									#122
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It's clear there are more politically minded activist judges willing to disreguard fairness and the law in the 9th circuit then in any other court district in the country. That;s way their rulings are always being over turned and that's why so many people want to split the 9th circuit.

	17-09-2003 22:17									#123
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Is there anyone here on Apolyton that still thinks that this was a sound rulling???

	17-09-2003 22:23									#124
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Even the leftists have run home and won't defend this...

	18-09-2003 01:05									#125
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Even prominent Democrats are in dismay. Jerry Brown said this decision was wrong even though he supports Gray Davis.

	18-09-2003 01:13									#126
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not to mention untrained election workers:

I tell ya, my town sux! And it sux poorly!

	18-09-2003 01:18									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Even the leftists have run home and won't defend this...

Actually, I think the ruling was brilliant. I was laughing my ass off all day yesterday once I realized what they had done. They took Gore v Bush and shoved it all the way up the Republicans ass. The ruling is wholly based on Gore v. Bush. Now the Republican controled SCOTUS is left with the prospect of letting it stand, and seeing the Republican power grab in California fail or they have to reverse themselves. This ruling is just a big **** YOU! to SCOTUS.

	18-09-2003 01:30									#128
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Che, Bush v. Gore had nothing to do with minorities being less capable of punching holes. I am sure this "brilliant" decision will be overturned - or sustained on different reasoning.

Also, if this decision is right, the court must (eventually) void the results of all election contests conducted under the unconstitutional system - right? The 9th Circuit recently ordered all death sentences imposed by judges to be commuted to life sentences. It should also postpone all elections where the unconstitutional punch ballots are being used. To address one and only one contest - the one that Gray Davis is going to lose - stinks to high heaven.

	18-09-2003 01:32									#129
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Hmm, the 9th circuit is talking about having an 11 judge panel review the 3 judge panels decision. Apparently many of the judges are cheese off with the ruling.

	18-09-2003 01:37									#130
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, I think the ruling was brilliant. I was laughing my ass off all day yesterday once I realized what they had done. They took Gore v Bush and shoved it all the way up the Republicans ass. The ruling is wholly based on Gore v. Bush. Now the Republican controled SCOTUS is left with the prospect of letting it stand, and seeing the Republican power grab in California fail or they have to reverse themselves. This ruling is just a big **** YOU! to SCOTUS.

Yeah, but two turds don't make a right.

	18-09-2003 01:47									#131
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Yeah, but two turds don't make a right.

It's still funny.

Ned, you're wrong. Gore v Bush is slightly appropriate here. What was at issue there was the right of every Floridian to have their vote count equally. It's the same issue ni California. Punch card voting booths are more likely to return errors than touch screen, regardless of the abilities of the voter.

The real question is: how Gore v Bush should be applied, before or after an election? The 9th is saying it applies before the election.

	18-09-2003 01:54									#132
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's still funny.

That for sure.

	18-09-2003 03:12									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's still funny. Ned, you're wrong. Gore v Bush is slightly appropriate here. What was at issue there was the right of every Floridian to have their vote count equally. It's the same issue ni California. Punch card voting booths are more likely to return errors than touch screen, regardless of the abilities of the voter. The real question is: how Gore v Bush should be applied, before or after an election? The 9th is saying it applies before the election.

Maybe, maybe not. If Bush v. Gore applies, why does the opinion depend upon the relative ineptitude of minorities vis-a-vis non minorities in their ability to punch holes? B v. G was about the unfairness of having two different counting methods for the same machine. Minority status was not involved.

And if you are right, why are all the other elections held since 2001 not unconstitutional for the same reason?

	18-09-2003 03:18									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Minority status was not involved.

As I understand it, it's only assumed here, as three of the counties concerned do not have significant minority populations.

quote: And if you are right, why are all the other elections held since 2001 not unconstitutional for the same reason?

If it isn't challanged, it isn't unconstitutional. Kinda like, it ain't illegal if you don't get caught.

	18-09-2003 03:38									#135
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Ned Minority status was not involved. As I understand it, it's only assumed here, as three of the counties concerned do not have significant minority populations. quote: And if you are right, why are all the other elections held since 2001 not unconstitutional for the same reason? If it isn't challanged, it isn't unconstitutional. Kinda like, it ain't illegal if you don't get caught.

I think Simon will sue to have the 2002 race declared null and void and to have a new contest with Davis. That will nix the current recall.

	18-09-2003 07:26									#136
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's still funny. Ned, you're wrong. Gore v Bush is slightly appropriate here. What was at issue there was the right of every Floridian to have their vote count equally. It's the same issue ni California. Punch card voting booths are more likely to return errors than touch screen, regardless of the abilities of the voter. The real question is: how Gore v Bush should be applied, before or after an election? The 9th is saying it applies before the election.

Just one note. LA county does not have the money to get touch screen voting this coming March, so they will be going with ink marked ballots that are the same or worse then the punch cards.

	18-09-2003 11:55									#137
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Jack, Then, let's postpone all California elections until 1) we get computer voting machines or 2) we give minorities training in punching holes.

(I still haven't seen a liberal agree with the contention that minorities are less capable of punching ballots than non minorities. I think the reason for this is that the contention itself is racist.)

	18-09-2003 13:16									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Does linger have anything to do with lingerie?

Lingerie causes my eyes to linger longer.

	18-09-2003 23:10									#139
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Hey, Che, and other defenders of the DECISION, what about the rights of the people of California. The people have the right to recall their governor and the Cal. Constitution says the recall election shall be held within certain time limits - so that the incumbant might be removed expeditiously to prevent further harm. The delay directly and overwhelmingly harms the interests of the people guaranteed by the constitution.

So much for democracy from the left. They will oppose it at every opportunity.

	20-09-2003 08:10									#140
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Odd that the same machines that were perfectly fine to elect Mr. Davis 10 months ago are now inadequate to elect his replacement.

	20-09-2003 08:59									#141
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Ned: From a legal stand point the state's constitution is bet by Federal power. The constitution of the US spells out if the state and federal governments are in conflict then the federal wins. Also the past elections wouldn't have to be redone even if the 9th circuits ruling isn't over turned. Remember when Jim Crow got thrown out they didn't have to redo any elections all they had to do was follow the ruling for all new elections.

	20-09-2003 09:02									#142
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf Odd that the same machines that were perfectly fine to elect Mr. Davis 10 months ago are now inadequate to elect his replacement.

Re-read the thread, johnny-come-lately.

	20-09-2003 09:42									#143
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Ooh, ok Che, I guess you set me straight.
The fact is the ACLU was not too interested in over-turning a Democrat's election.

	20-09-2003 11:57									#144
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quote: Gore v Bush is slightly appropriate here. What was at issue there was the right of every Floridian to have their vote count equally.

Actually it is a stretch to apply it here. Bush v. Gore dealt with unequal standards in the recount election. It wasn't punch cards vs electronic machines, but the different ways that punch cards counted (or didn't count) under the widely varying standards for the recount even from table to table.

	20-09-2003 13:49									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned: From a legal stand point the state's constitution is bet by Federal power. The constitution of the US spells out if the state and federal governments are in conflict then the federal wins. Also the past elections wouldn't have to be redone even if the 9th circuits ruling isn't over turned. Remember when Jim Crow got thrown out they didn't have to redo any elections all they had to do was follow the ruling for all new elections.

Actually, the point I made was directed to the issues surrounding a preliminary injunction. The 9th Cir. assumed that the plaintiffs were harmed irrepairably without a delay in the election while the defendant, the people of the State of California, were not harmed substantially by a such a delay. In point of fact, the opposite is true. A delay removes a right the people of California are granted by the State Constitution - the right to have a recall election 60-80 days from certification. That right is being TRASHed by the 9th Circus.

Also, a law professor opined today on one of the talk news shows that the major problem with the 9th Circus's reliance on Bush v. Gore is that virtually every Supreme Court Justice, in that case, went out of his way to say that it was not a denial of equal protection to have more than on kind of voting machine in a state with two different error rates. This is why the finding that minorities are less capable than non minorities in their ability to punch holes and remove chads is critical to sustaining the Circus opinion. Otherwise, even if punch card machines produced significantly higher error rates than other methods, which the data does not actually support, btw, there would be no constitutional violation under Bush v. Gore.

	20-09-2003 16:05									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Gore v Bush is slightly appropriate here. What was at issue there was the right of every Floridian to have their vote count equally. Actually it is a stretch to apply it here. Bush v. Gore dealt with unequal standards in the recount election. It wasn't punch cards vs electronic machines, but the different ways that punch cards counted (or didn't count) under the widely varying standards for the recount even from table to table.

That seems like the logic which most of the TV pundits are using and I have to admite it makes sense. NPR had a special last thursday on the Bush vs Gore case and how it applies to the California recall and the legal expert on NPR said it was a stretch for these judges to use in this case. NPR also said that the Bush vs. Gore ruling even specifically stated that different systems (i.e. punch or electronic) could be used in different districts with in the states but that the same standard as to what counted as a correctly filled out vote had to apply for every district with in the state which used a given system.

	23-09-2003 21:18									#147
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As I knew, the 11 judes on the 9th Circuit Court have put the recall back on track for an Oct 7 date.

	23-09-2003 21:20									#148
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I was listening to the questioning on the radio yesterday, that ACLU guy had me rolling. When they said that since the Secretary of State found no statistics indicating that punch card error was any worse than other systems that the case should be droped He had no response...



guess I'll send in my absentee...

	23-09-2003 21:35									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And oh, by the way, isn't anyone complete appalled by this latter finding, without evidence, that minorities cannot punch a ballot as well as non minorities. That finding, by itself, is OUTRAGEOUS.

Only three of those six counties are minority dominated. The six counties conmprise 44% of California's population, so it doens't have anything to do with minorities. It has to do with the machines themselves and how well they are maintained.

JohnT, I never said that Black people couldn't keep their machines clean. I said the local government couldn't keep the machnies in Black districts clean. A big difference.