06-10-2003 19:29									#301
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Unfortunately, I won't be able to post very much during the RWC for fear of seeing scores because all the games are being shown a couple of days later here.

Still, if there is a lull in important games for long enough I will pop in to add my 2 cents.

	06-10-2003 20:27									#302
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In case you guys missed the thread, I thought others here might be interested to see what finbar looks like.

	06-10-2003 20:30									#303
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Attachment: finbar.jpg
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	06-10-2003 21:41									#304
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Great!

When you think his ancestors were british convicts...

Last edited by Tamerlin on 06-10-2003 at 23:28

	07-10-2003 01:44									#305
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quote: Originally posted by flipside Yep, you are right on the point. So, obviously when the SRU goes out of business and no Samoan players come through and NZ can no longer compete with the resources of England, I guess you will be happy that you are a homogenised nation?

For a start I find it difficult to imagine a turn of evens which would lead to Samoan rugby going 'bankrupt'. Secondly, NZ doesn't depend on an inflow of Samoan players or any other players from the Pacific Islands. Thirdly, money pots or not, NZ will always be able to compete with England. It's more a question of whether England will always be able to compete with NZ. (Havak! I can see that vein in your neck twitching! ) Rugby is NZ's way of life; we will always breed and develop top notch rugby players.

quote: I am sorry for this sarcasm, but hopes that it goes just a little way to prove a point that the amount of money that the "have's " have could be better distributed and that if you follow that arguement to it's infinate conclusion that you will end up with a an Eng- N.Z final most times, with France breaking the tradition and Aus. and Ire being the "floater's."

I understand your point, although I would be interested to know exactly how much money NZ has compared to Aussie, England, France and Ireland. I would imagine we don’t make much from ticket sales, only sponsorship and merchandise. The salaries we pay our players are nothing compared to those playing in the England competitions, so why is it we are still up there do you think?

	07-10-2003 02:08									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia In case you guys missed the thread, I thought others here might be interested to see what finbar looks like.

I'm sure he's stoked about that!

Finbar, you're gorgeous mate. If I were female. And a goat.

	07-10-2003 04:13									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Glaws seem almost schizo - they destroyed a Sarries side last week but Newcastle, who the week before fell apart against Tigers, detroyed them in turn. Quins were the surpise package in the early games but in turn were felled by that Sarries side. You are right - it's topsy turvy stuff. Lets see if Bath are there at Xmas. I have to concede that consecutive wins over Sale and Wasps does them great credit however - and it really hurts to say that!

As a relatively objective observer, it would be good to see an even comp.

quote: Care to guess where we are next weekend? There may be a few tractors in the car park - and we may be in for a stuffing depending which side runs out.

With my luck, the tractors will get bogged!

	07-10-2003 04:16									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Great! When you think his ancestors were british convicts...

Not true! My great great grandfather was a Dutch ship's engineer who jumped ship in Adelaide in the 1880s! Which, of course, explains why I've always felt I was born in the wrong hemisphere! And also, perhaps, explains my penchant for s!

	07-10-2003 04:19									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I'm sure he's stoked about that! Finbar, you're gorgeous mate. If I were female. And a goat.

Rest assured, I'm not remotely interested in transplanted Kiwis in fishnets.

Oh, and speaking of explosive stomach upsets, Stirling Mortlock is going to miss the opener against the Pumas thanks to one.

	07-10-2003 04:23									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Unfortunately, I won't be able to post very much during the RWC for fear of seeing scores because all the games are being shown a couple of days later here.

Okay, we'll bombard your email with the results. And they'll be in the subject line. So check your email over the next six weeks at your peril!

	07-10-2003 05:22									#311
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Okay, we'll bombard your email with the results. And they'll be in the subject line. So check your email over the next six weeks at your peril!

It's times like this I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't report rugby results with any amount of enthusiasm.

	07-10-2003 05:48									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog For a start I find it difficult to imagine a turn of evens which would lead to Samoan rugby going 'bankrupt'. Secondly, NZ doesn't depend on an inflow of Samoan players or any other players from the Pacific Islands. Thirdly, money pots or not, NZ will always be able to compete with England. It's more a question of whether England will always be able to compete with NZ. (Havak! I can see that vein in your neck twitching! ) Rugby is NZ's way of life; we will always breed and develop top notch rugby players.

Okay, fair enough.

Firstly, Samoan bankruptcy


Aussie response

Secondly

Island players in the NZ squad

Joe Rokocoko Born Fiji, raised Auckland
Tana Umaga Samoan, born Wellington
Aaron Mauger Samoan descent
Doug Howlett Tongan mother
Mils Muiliana Born Samoa
Keven Mealamu Samoan descent
Jerry Collins Samoan
Rodney So'oialo Samoan
Catl hoeft Tongan/German parents


Thirdly

Compete with England?
Yep, my point is more how certain teams are having their basic strength ripped off of them. If it helps, I could quite happily knock off 20 names of players that should be playing in this WC that are staying at home for financial reasons, most of which is due to the timing of the competiton and the English wages.

	07-10-2003 06:03									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I understand your point, although I would be interested to know exactly how much money NZ has compared to Aussie, England, France and Ireland. I would imagine we don’t make much from ticket sales, only sponsorship and merchandise. The salaries we pay our players are nothing compared to those playing in the England competitions, so why is it we are still up there do you think?

Fair point.

Tell you what though, you let Samoa have your resources, all the players of island descent, and pick, say just 5 NZ born players, and, in return, you take theirs.

What, seriously, do you think would happen?

	07-10-2003 08:56									#314
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quote: Originally posted by flipside Aussie response

Interesting reading. I read something else completely different from him to the effect that the Pacific Islands' plight was the responsibility of the IRB. I must try to find it. Anyway, what he says here is pretty right.

	07-10-2003 10:48									#315
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quote: Originally posted by flipside Firstly, Samoan bankruptcy Aussie response

Well, there was nothing in that article to suggest that Samoa would go bankrupt. The gist of it to me was that they are a good rugby nation, but because they are not included in any international competitions, they don't get the cash injections that could really promote their game and help their economy. The key point was the last sentence, "Simplistically you could just write them a cheque, but that's not the way to go. Money will help but you've got to find ways of including them in competitions."

quote: Secondly Island players in the NZ squad Joe Rokocoko Born Fiji, raised Auckland Tana Umaga Samoan, born Wellington Aaron Mauger Samoan descent Doug Howlett Tongan mother Mils Muiliana Born Samoa Keven Mealamu Samoan descent Jerry Collins Samoan Rodney So'oialo Samoan Catl hoeft Tongan/German parents

So what? I say it again. We're a multi-cultural society. How do you think those guys are going to feel if we told them to "bugger off, you have to play for your native countries for this world cup"? Many would be devastated - most of those players are born and bread Kiwis. Ancestry is irrelevant.

quote: Fair point. Tell you what though, you let Samoa have your resources, all the players of island descent, and pick, say just 5 NZ born players, and, in return, you take theirs. What, seriously, do you think would happen?

But most of those guys you listed ARE NZ born players. Heck I have Scottish ancestry, does that mean I have to play for Scotland rather than NZ? Of course not - I'm a Kiwi.

Mate, unlike Ireland, Kiwi’s have ancestors from all over the world. The indigenous people are the Maori. It is not appropriate (and very wrong) in our eyes to consider ancestry when selecting people for sports teams. If they want to live in NZ they can play our sports, end of story.

	07-10-2003 13:03									#316
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quote: Thirdly, money pots or not, NZ will always be able to compete with England. It's more a question of whether England will always be able to compete with NZ.(Havak! I can see that vein in your neck twitching! ) Rugby is NZ's way of life; we will always breed and develop top notch rugby players.

Yeah I’ve heard the same c*** from Nick Farr-Jones again this week – “it’s Englands last chance, they’ll never compete again”.

I think you are just trolling me because someone else pushed your buttons?

But you are clearly an intelligent chap – so turn that intellect on what you just said. We know that since the game went Professional England have improved more in terms of results and world ranking than any other team. We know that England has a huge population in comparison to NZ. We know as a consequence our number of registered players leaves you trailing. We know the standard of our rugby is still improving. On exactly what basis do you think we might stop being able to compete? I’ve said it before and I will say it again – only being amateur ever held us back from competing regularly.

The other danger in what you are saying is this concept of seeing the future and seeing only devotedly happy black shirts. The sport may be a religion now and it may be unthinkable to you that this could ever change – but the unpalatable can and does happen. Take the example of cricket and the West Indies – go to the team of the late seventies and suggest to them that in 30 years time they would be an also ran nation with all their kids choosing baseball and basketball instead and they would have laughed in your face – cricket was every bit the religion there that rugger is in NZ – and yet this happened anyway.

I can easily see a period, however brief, in my lifetime where NZ are not competitive with England or Australia or the Boks or France – because sport is cyclical and at some point there is going to be a weak AB side – it’s almost inevitable.

quote: The salaries we pay our players are nothing compared to those playing in the England competitions, so why is it we are still up there do you think?

Last time I saw the figures the AB contract was practically equivalent to an English players remuneration (as in very tasty indeed - although we are paid per play rather than contracted for a season). It’s at club/S12 level the difference exists.

I’m not stepping into the Islander debate on this occasion but I will say this – you are dead wrong about Ireland. Ireland has an increasingly multi-cultural society and a history of considerable immigration as well as the more wide known emigration. Dublin in particularly is a very multi-cultural place – they could field a world XV pretty easily just walking down temple bar (and not from the tourists).

And all this is quite apart from the fact that you just raised comparative immigration being in NZ’s favour with someone who had already told you they were from Ulster. Which is part of the UK not the Republic. And the reason is…?

quote: As a relatively objective observer, it would be good to see an even comp.

If Bath stumble once or twice before Xmas it becomes really wide open – and that is good for English rugby if not for this Tigers fan.

Wet ground will suit Gloucester more as bizarrely they will have the older beefier pack this weekend. Talk about playing against type.

	07-10-2003 14:25									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yeah I’ve heard the same c*** from Nick Farr-Jones again this week – “it’s Englands last chance, they’ll never compete again”. I think you are just trolling me because someone else pushed your buttons?

Not at all, I'm not upset by anything that's been said so far. I must admit though, that statement I made about whether England could continue to compete with NZ was just a playful stab at your button. I'm afraid I'm not 100% up with forum lingo and don't know what 'trolling' is.

quote: But you are clearly an intelligent chap – so turn that intellect on what you just said. We know that since the game went Professional England have improved more in terms of results and world ranking than any other team. We know that England has a huge population in comparison to NZ. We know as a consequence our number of registered players leaves you trailing. We know the standard of our rugby is still improving. On exactly what basis do you think we might stop being able to compete? I’ve said it before and I will say it again – only being amateur ever held us back from competing regularly.

Okay mate you prove your point! Now lets wait and see. [Note to self: avoid that button!]

quote: Last time I saw the figures the AB contract was practically equivalent to an English players remuneration (as in very tasty indeed - although we are paid per play rather than contracted for a season). It’s at club/S12 level the difference exists.

Yes club level was what I was referring to. I'm not sure of the AB figures, but are they equivalent to England even when converted?

quote: Ireland has an increasingly multi-cultural society and a history of considerable immigration as well as the more wide known emigration. Dublin in particularly is a very multi-cultural place – they could field a world XV pretty easily just walking down temple bar (and not from the tourists).

Sure, but bar the few remaining full blooded Maori, the rest of the population's blood is a mixture of immigrants from all over the world that arrived at some point during the last 250 yrs.

This forum contains large amount of big red X's, and the formating is now completely screwed. I can't see the Smilies so don't know if I somehow managed to upset anyone, but if so,

	07-10-2003 15:11									#318
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Ah but that button reads “Loves bitter/seldom takes things too seriously”. I enjoy presenting counter arguments even when I know the button is being pressed so to speak. Is the term masochist appropriate?

Can’t imagine you upset anyone – I didn’t read the entirety of your exchanges with flipside but they came over as a spirited exchange of views. And yes this forum is a challenge to read in IE right now.

I did actually fish out the Premiership/S12 average wages a while back – our resident Aussie archivist may be able to find more details on them. The Premiership had an average spread from £30k-£60K PA whilst the S12 players average was reportedly £40K I think (not this is their PA wage if they play S12 as well as domestic – not just for S12) – so it’s not too wildly different for the non internationals players. At the same time the ‘average’ England International was making £300K PA and the average Wallaby an estimated £200K PA so its clear where the gravy starts to come into play. I suspect we would both be shocked if Tamerlin could dig out some Toulouse and French wages for us as France operates under very different salary constraints.

It’s a long way from the old ‘boot money’ system that’s for sure.

Clive has kept his word and named a very strong side – pretty much first choice – for the opening game. Is he right? Time will tell (I’m sitting on the fence again).

	07-10-2003 17:21									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I can easily see a period, however brief, in my lifetime where NZ are not competitive with England or Australia or the Boks or France – because sport is cyclical and at some point there is going to be a weak AB side – it’s almost inevitable.

It happened to them very, very recently. Only over the last 18 months have they really climbed out of the post-Fitzy and ZinZan trough.

Now listen, Havak. Next Sunday morning, drag yourself out of bed at 10am and turn on Channel 5. "Snobs" - the kids' show - started there either last Sunday or the Sunday before. Pulled a million viewers around the UK. They're chuffed with it. If you have any trouble following the plot, PM me and I'll explain it to you!

	07-10-2003 17:35									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Havak whilst the S12 players average was reportedly £40K I think (not this is their PA wage if they play S12 as well as domestic – not just for S12

In Australia, in terms of income, it's pretty much just S12. Club rugby pays little or nothing.

quote: Clive has kept his word and named a very strong side – pretty much first choice – for the opening game. Is he right? Time will tell (I’m sitting on the fence again).

And now Chris Latham joins Stirling Mortlock with this rampant stomach virus. With Mortlock already out, Latham probably would have started at full back, with Rogers moving from full back to outside centre. Now, with Latham gone, Rogers stays at full back and Burke slots into inside centre. I'm not sure why, but anyway. Here's yet another case of us using a player a season past his best, and he's being chosen because someone like Morgan Turinui would be considered too inexperienced, when Turinui should have been blooded by now.

Al Baxter starting in the front row on Friday is the converse. For how long was it patently obvious that Noriega was past it? Now, Baxter gets his first start in a WRC match, having come off the bench once against the ABs in the return Tri-Nations game. And, even then, replacing Panaho, already tried and found wanting at the top level, dragged back from club football to replace Noriega in that game.

I despair!

	07-10-2003 18:36									#321
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Chin up there Finbar. I am tempted to take Friday off work as I think the opening game could be a cracker.

The virus sounds nasty - once you have more than one case in a squad you know there can be a domino effect.

"Snobs" on Sunday it is then. That is a damn good audience for Channel 5 outside of peak time btw.

	07-10-2003 19:08									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Chin up there Finbar. I am tempted to take Friday off work as I think the opening game could be a cracker.

I have to tell you - the Pumas are in with a chance if they have a decent game outside their forwards. Our chaps are going to be as nervous as buggery.

quote: The virus sounds nasty - once you have more than one case in a squad you know there can be a domino effect.

Yeah, they had Mortlock quarantined. But it didn't work.

quote: "Snobs" on Sunday it is then. That is a damn good audience for Channel 5 outside of peak time btw.

Yep. They're tickled. So set your alarm! 10am! Just remember it's for 8 to 10-11 year olds!

	07-10-2003 20:08									#323
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Damn - should I wait a couple of years before watching it then?

I actually quite rate the Argentinian scrum half by the way - Pichot. He is a busy little character with great hands - if George has an off day that lad will expose it.

	08-10-2003 05:18									#324
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I'm quite serious about the Pumas having a chance. The Wallabies are vulnerable. Poor recent history, opening the tourney in front of a huge crowd with massive expectations.

I notice that it's 26C in Perth today for the Poms. Pity it will be dry heat!

	08-10-2003 05:46									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Sure, but bar the few remaining full blooded Maori,

I thought the last full-blooded maori died years ago??

	08-10-2003 06:38									#326
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Christian Cullen? Played for the Maori last time? No, he's still running around.

	08-10-2003 07:07									#327
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This may seem heretical, but I'm thinking about buying one of the England RWC jerseys. I always liked the England jersey, and the RWC one is one of the few out there that don't have some huge sponsor's logo on the front. I can live with a small nike logo...

Attachment: england jersey.jpg
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	08-10-2003 07:28									#328
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So Havak's finally got to you! Okay, that's it, you're excommunicated from the SH brotherhood!



BTW. The only way I can access this thread now is via the little envelope on the LHS of the thread title. That takes me to the first page of the thread, from where I jump to the last page. Very odd.

	08-10-2003 12:42									#329
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quote: I'm quite serious about the Pumas having a chance.

I believe you. The first twenty will be key – time once again for the Wallabies to ‘front up’.

Both games we played against France were in 26C conditions – and not dry heat either. It will be tough for us (that’s what you get when the IRB sanctions a host outside of local winter) but we may surprise you yet.

Nice one Caligastia It’s a shame I cannot see the image you put up as the new replica shirt actually has a huge O2 sponsors logo in the middle. Being the RFU they have done various special shirts as well of course – may be one of those. I just treated myself to a T shirt that parodies the Carlsberg Lager Ads here – on the Front the England rose and Nike swoop plus the words “Probably the best…”, and on the back “…Rugby team in the world”.

I can’t enter the thread direct to last page either Finbar. I’m still getting header errors and I just got that damn Gator pop up again too…

It's close now guys, very close...

*Edit* Pleased to see that wlell regarded Frenchman Tony Marsh has been recalled after beating cancer. France definitely look better wioth him in the side.

I also look forward to Finbar turning a wry on on todays news that the England Georgia game is only half sold so far. Apparently the organisers in Perth claim they are fighting the inertia of a public perception that the games were sold out long ago.

	08-10-2003 12:57									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Both games we played against France were in 26C conditions – and not dry heat either. It will be tough for us (that’s what you get when the IRB sanctions a host outside of local winter) but we may surprise you yet.

I've employed a local witch doctor who specialises in sauna-like weather.

quote: I just treated myself to a T shirt that parodies the Carlsberg Lager Ads here – on the Front the England rose and Nike swoop plus the words “Probably the best…”, and on the back “…Rugby team in the world”.

And the qualification will be judged to be prescience when you dip out in the QFs.

quote: I can’t enter the thread direct to last page either Finbar. I’m still getting header errors and I just got that damn Gator pop up again too…

This seems to be the only OT thread I can't enter as per usual. All the others have the header error but still let me in. And I use Mozilla, with pop ups blocked, so I never see those things.

quote: It's close now guys, very close...

*Havak begins to twitch uncontrollably knowing his lads are now going to have to stand up to the reputation he has bestowed upon them*