01-10-2003 23:48									#241
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quote: Which rugby minnow would you guys most like to see do well in the RWC? I'll have to go with the USA. Seeing as I live here.

I´ll go with Tonga and Uruguay

I´d say Fiji and Samoa... but i don´t consider them "minnows". in a good day, they can beat wales, ireland or scotland (especially Samoa)

	02-10-2003 00:26									#242
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I also have a soft spot for Romania. It would be great to see them do well as they have a rugby history (pre-fall of iron curtain) to be proud of. I guess communism isn't completely useless eh?

	02-10-2003 00:38									#243
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yep! i was shocked when i read about their performance in the 80s
i had no idea

	02-10-2003 01:26									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Which rugby minnow would you guys most like to see do well in the RWC?

France...

	02-10-2003 04:02									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So much for our unbeaten start Still in good news it is rumoured Austin is about to sign a two year extension.

Mmmm. There goes another two points for playing an unregistered idiot.

quote: And Campo – paraphrasing him he said ‘they have been awful, they’ll come good’. He also fingered Rogers as a possible star of the tournament.

Add your Clive to the list. He was talking up the Wallabies as he boarded the plane.

And Matt Rogers has trained only at fullback in this final lead-up to the competition. Which is telling.

quote: Mrs Havak clearly has a huge surprise coming!? And I would imagine so does Martin. And not least of all – me!

Well, I'm very definitely sure that Mrs Havak isn't 6' 8" and 19 stone, so she probably never stood a chance.

quote: Enjoy the hols – recharging the creative juices nicely are they?

All about to come to a premature end. I spent ten months slaving on a kid's TV series for Channel 5 over there. Now they want to make a feature film based on it, so I'm preparing to get back into harness.

	02-10-2003 04:06									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I'd also like to see Italy do well. They are, after all, coached by the former AB great John Kirwan!

I'd like to see them do well for other - already well documented here - reasons.

quote: I see that it is Maxwell that could replace Ali Williams should Ali's foot not heal in time.

I hope so. I think he's the best available. His experience won't hurt either.

quote: I guess that Mitchell didn't like the thought of bad boy Flavell in the side, loosing his cool and giving away stupid penalties.

The guy's a lunatic!

	02-10-2003 04:07									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin France...

Response of the year!

	02-10-2003 08:19									#248
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Over at nzoom.com (an NZ website) they've started up a RWC fantasy league, and I've taken the liberty of starting a mini-competition for us rugby threaders. Named, in honour of Havak and his pubbie buddies, the "Pork Pie Champs", all you have to do is e-mail me at frozenfire911 @ hotmail . com ad say you wanna join

	02-10-2003 13:03									#249
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quote: I guess communism isn't completely useless eh?

In all seriousness the reason the Romanian sides of the late 80s were competitive is that the players were all full time military and actually fitter than most of the players from ‘bigger’ teams that they came up against. Their rugby is now sadly in dire straights indeed – the Union is practically bankrupt and most of the players have to tout their services abroad (similar in fact to the state most of the Island nations are in?). The last time we entertained them at HQ they were like kids in a candy store – really pleased that we had invited them – but the game was a horrendous mis-match giving us our highest margin of victory ever at 134-0 if memory serves. How far will they get in RWC – not very I would suggest.

quote: There goes another two points for playing an unregistered idiot.

Sorry – we registered him as one five years ago.

quote: Add your Clive to the list. He was talking up the Wallabies as he boarded the plane.

At least that is consistent of him – with the exception of his snub in June he had constantly been talking the Wallabies up. And I think he may be right to do so – I don’t expect them to be as poor in the RWC as they have been so far this year. Its so typically Aussie to be off form going into something then win it?

Interesting about Rogers – definitely an attacking option at fullback there. Shame that if things go to plan we shouldn’t meet as I would love to see him and Lewsey pick up their feud again…

quote: Now they want to make a feature film based on it, so I'm preparing to get back into harness.

Would this be Fat Cow perchance? Good on ya – to coin a phrase.

As far as Italy’s chances go – it’s a tough group, they have left their established goal kicker at home (and the try he scored for us last week was a beautiful fly half classic step and go btw) and Kirwan was talking off leaving the first choice players out for their biggest pool game – guess who against?!

I can see his point but as a player you always want to test yourselves against the best do you not?

	02-10-2003 13:37									#250
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quote: Originally posted by finbar All about to come to a premature end. I spent ten months slaving on a kid's TV series for Channel 5 over there. Now they want to make a feature film based on it, so I'm preparing to get back into harness.

That sounds intriguing. What exactly do you do for Channel 5?
How did you veal & fish turn out btw?

quote: Add your Clive to the list. He was talking up the Wallabies as he boarded the plane.

One wonders if he’s having a dig at the Kiwis for them saying that France were a bigger threat than England…

quote: Originally posted by Havak As far as Italy’s chances go – it’s a tough group, they have left their established goal kicker at home (and the try he scored for us last week was a beautiful fly half classic step and go btw) and Kirwan was talking off leaving the first choice players out for their biggest pool game – guess who against?! I can see his point but as a player you always want to test yourselves against the best do you not?

The other side to that argument is that the players also want to play more games and go further in the tournament than just the first round. If I were Kirwan I’d also target the Welsh.

[Edit: Kirwan has confirmed he'll field a full strength side, saying that playing the All Blacks was an honour and his Italian team needed to display courage, excitement and flair to show the world what it could do. Good on him!]

	02-10-2003 14:54									#251
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quote: One wonders if he’s having a dig at the Kiwis for them saying that France were a bigger threat than England…

Doubt it. It’s been annoying him for some time that the Aussies are trying to play the huge underdog card. He doesn’t trust them. Even I, despite seeing how poorly they have played, don’t trust them on that one either.

We covered those Kiwi comments way back didn’t we – they were either saying France are unpredictable and harder to plan for – or they simply were being dismissive of England. The former seems more likely.

quote: Kirwan has confirmed he'll field a full strength side, saying that playing the All Blacks was an honour and his Italian team needed to display courage, excitement and flair to show the world what it could do. Good on him!

Very pleased with this – fielding a second team would have gifted the ABs a World record margin I suspect. The ABs will still bury them – but the Azuri forwards may present a moderate test for the ABs.

Woodward still maintains he will field the big boys against Georgia - and i suppose I must applaud that too - unless Jonno or Wilko get injured in which case I will revise history and say I was always against it!

As for Wales – I really worry for them. It’s feasible they will not win a game I’m afraid. Much as I might be English first and foremost – even I don’t like to see how far they have fallen.

	02-10-2003 15:25									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Doubt it. It’s been annoying him for some time that the Aussies are trying to play the huge underdog card. He doesn’t trust them. Even I, despite seeing how poorly they have played, don’t trust them on that one either.

I don't think anyone does. That (potential) semi-final clash between them and us will have me on tender hooks. I think the Aussies have a card or two up their sleeves that they didn't show us in the tri-nations. As I've said before, they love to pull it together and impress the pants off everyone when nobody expects them to do particularly well.

quote: We covered those Kiwi comments way back didn’t we – they were either saying France are unpredictable and harder to plan for – or they simply were being dismissive of England. The former seems more likely.

The main gist of the comments was the unpredictability of the French, but there was also the suggestion that England were thoroughly predictable and thus easy to plan for. And lets face it, they are!

quote: As for Wales – I really worry for them. It’s feasible they will not win a game I’m afraid. Much as I might be English first and foremost – even I don’t like to see how far they have fallen.

Why have they fallen so far so quick? Is it that their domestic competition, modelled on the NZ NPC, doesn't suit them?

	02-10-2003 15:27									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Why have they fallen so far so quick? Is it that their domestic competition, modelled on the NZ NPC, doesn't suit them?

IMO it is simply because they lack money... sign of the times.

	02-10-2003 16:57									#254
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quote: I think the Aussies have a card or two up their sleeves that they didn't show us in the tri-nations.

As a team I’m not sure they do – but you can’t discount individual brilliance making a difference. And if Gregan steps up even just a single gear it will lift the whole team? Larkham too has been a shade of the player he once was this year so if he can lift his game too the Aussies will start to look a whole lot more dangerous.

quote: And lets face it, they are!

But the irony wasn’t lost on you was it – that a team knowing what is coming at them doesn’t mean they will overcome it. After all everyone knows what they will get from the ABs – but that doesn’t help in actually dealing with it.

If we may be serious it’s actually very unfair – and might indicate a fundamental mis-understanding of England by the players quoted (and that in turn may be good for us). This England team can and does adapt it’s game – more so than any other England team ever has.

Wales – well both the factors you guys named are an influence. They also have the most shambolic Union structure of any home nation – though they are addressing that. They have now re-organised their top flight clubs into franchises (and it was hugely controversial) and have a very good U-21 side – but then they have had good U-21 sides for twenty years. The big problem in Welsh rugby is that the step from U-21 brilliance to senior quality is proving too big for too many of their players. Let us not forget too it’s a tiny country and the curse of soccer is eroding rugbys traditional place in Welsh hearts and minds.

	02-10-2003 19:41									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Would this be Fat Cow perchance? Good on ya – to coin a phrase.

No, it's the thing I did after Fat Cow Motel. A 26-part children's series for the 9 Network here and Channel 5 over there. I think I ended up writing or re-writing 18 of the 26. The standard of children's TV writing in this country is abysmal. It's called "Snobs" - about a boy and his dog, aimed at the under 12s - and I think it starts on Channel 5 in the next couple of weeks. It started here this week. And Fat Cow Motel finished its run here tonight.

	02-10-2003 19:48									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog That sounds intriguing. What exactly do you do for Channel 5?

I'm not actually involved with 5, I'm a freelance writer. The series - described above - was a co-production between Channel 5 over there and the 9 Network here. Everyone loves it, and there's a massive market for children's films, so they want to make a feature based on the series. I've already told them they'll be competing with all the Disney/Pixar stuff, but they want to push ahead regardless. So I have to come up with a story that will sustain for 90 minutes, entertain all ages from 7 to 70, and not cost more than $4 million to make.

quote: How did you veal & fish turn out btw?

Came up well. The veal was nice and moist. I couldn't get Wild Barramundi, so I had to settle for Blue Eye Cod, which I roasted with some chopped herbs. I did a roasted potato, pumpkin and garlic mash, which was pretty yummo too.

	02-10-2003 20:04									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I think the Aussies have a card or two up their sleeves that they didn't show us in the tri-nations. As I've said before, they love to pull it together and impress the pants off everyone when nobody expects them to do particularly well.

I wish. Frankly, they've been struggling for the last 18 months. Eddie inherited a team just past its peak. It's taken far too long for him to blood the new talent. Yes, we had a raft of injuries, but we had just about everyone back during the Tri-Nations except for Stirling Mortlock. Leaving aside our already well documented problems in the forwards, whenever we got the ball, there was a massive breakdown between Gregan and his backs. Time after time. Most of you saw it - often it was as if they'd never met. What really worries me is that they're talking about Mortlock's return fixing the problems - because he can break a line. So much bullsh*t. The problem has been getting the ball from Gregan to the backs with anything approaching a plan. And I don't know why that problem hasn't been solved after 18 months. It has, after all, been one of the Wallaby strengths over time. I think it's partly Gregan's fault - he's simply not, for whatever reason, what he was - and I have to say I'm reserving judgement on Eddie Jones. Because a top flight coach should have sorted these problems by now.

It will be very, very interesting to see Gregan's backup - Chris Whitaker - get a start during the tournament. He's a great little player - beautiful pair of hands - who has never had an opportunity. Given Gregan's performances this year, he would show him up a treat.

	02-10-2003 21:01									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Havak In all seriousness the reason the Romanian sides of the late 80s were competitive is that the players were all full time military and actually fitter than most of the players from ‘bigger’ teams that they came up against.

Exactly my point, under communism rugby in Romania was financed by the government.

quote: Their rugby is now sadly in dire straights indeed – the Union is practically bankrupt and most of the players have to tout their services abroad (similar in fact to the state most of the Island nations are in?). The last time we entertained them at HQ they were like kids in a candy store – really pleased that we had invited them – but the game was a horrendous mis-match giving us our highest margin of victory ever at 134-0 if memory serves. How far will they get in RWC – not very I would suggest.

Unfortunately.

I wasn't aware of how good Romania were back then until recently. It's a real shame to see them fall so far.

	03-10-2003 01:40									#259
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quote: As for Wales – I really worry for them. It’s feasible they will not win a game I’m afraid. Much as I might be English first and foremost – even I don’t like to see how far they have fallen.

The Welsh domestic game is looking up this season after the re-organisation - we're even winning in Munster

In the past it has been patchy, with clubs like Llanelli able to crush Leicester (ask Martin Johnson about Stradey Parc) but a lot of other 'professionals' taking easy money and not performing.This has made the step up to internationals too far for most players and so seasons of poor results.

My worry is now about the coach and tactics - a few years ago you scored by endless recycling and wearing down the opposition. Today tries are more likely to come form set-piece possession, combined with handling skills and pace, but Welsh tactics still seem stuck in the past

	03-10-2003 03:59									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Is it because of the accent or because of the content of the song?

content

	03-10-2003 04:06									#261
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quote: Originally posted by flipside content

Which is...


:wary:

	03-10-2003 04:15									#262
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Sorry modem internal server problem and so double post .

Actually "The Wild Rover" is just a drunken singalong song.

The Wild Rover

Last edited by flipside on 03-10-2003 at 04:46

	03-10-2003 04:27									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Flipside may be able to confirm but I think Mollie Malone is primarily a Leinster song (the Dublin connection). Munster tend to start with Fields of Athenry as I recall. Nobody knows what Connacht sing as they never get into Europe - and Ulster sing different songs altogether.

Ummmmm.........

I'm an Ulster boy.

You would be better of asking a Gloucestershire fan what Munster sing.

	03-10-2003 05:06									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Which rugby minnow would you guys most like to see do well in the RWC? I'll have to go with the USA. Seeing as I live here. I'd also really like to see Argentina do really well. I don't see them beating Australia, but if they could get into the quarter finals that would be great.

The problem with the minnows, is that, other than Argentina ( who if they can exploit their strengths MAY beat Australia), is that some of their best players are not going to play in the competition for financial reasons.
The timing of the competition at the start of the NH season does not help, the higher pay for English club rugby than "minnow" international rugby adds to the problem, and let's not even begin to talk about the lack of resources and how NZ abuse their "feeder" sides.
Oh and btw Ireland. Fester reckons we might shock the lot of you.

	03-10-2003 12:06									#265
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quote: Originally posted by flipside Actually "The Wild Rover" is just a drunken singalong song. The Wild Rover

Very pleasant song...

But I wonder if I have not missed something as I don't see why it is especially funny if a French is asking someone to sing it.

	03-10-2003 13:15									#266
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quote: It's called "Snobs" - about a boy and his dog, aimed at the under 12s - and I think it starts on Channel 5 in the next couple of weeks

Must keep an eye out for it – sounds just about pitched right for me.

So no sign of Fat Cow making the trip here then?

The Feature Film sounds like a challenge for you.

On the rugger front Eddie has claimed he will play the first XV every game right? So the only way Whitaker gets a start is if Eddie makes him number one scrummy. That could be interesting.

quote: I wasn't aware of how good Romania were back then until recently. It's a real shame to see them fall so far.

It is indeed – particularly as the last time we saw them in 2001 it was clear the passion they have for the game still burns brightly.

quote: ask Martin Johnson about Stradey Parc

Don’t need to.

It’s a hugely intimidating place – no English team like visiting Welsh grounds. But Llanelli never crushed us – but it was a good win for them down there.

In the final analysis of course ,when something was actually at stake, Stephen Jones reverted to schoolboy form, the normally majestic Scott Quinell made no ground at all and then apparently wobbly goalposts knocked them out of Europe. Llanelli are whingers I’m afraid – and their coach Jenkins is the least gracious whiner I have ever heard after a game – and I have both been to Australia and had to put up with Healey for five years

But lets not look at Tigers record in Wales – lets look at Welsh successes at Welford Road shall we?
Scotts brother Craig of course is one of the easy money takers you mentioned – such potential wasted, he simply never got or kept himself fit.

quote: My worry is now about the coach and tactics

And he is a Kiwi of course – so the Kiwi posters may be better placed to debate his merits.
Ah the Wild Rover – Flipside is dead right it’s a tour song best sung when legless. Didn’t realise you were an Ulster boy – no rebel songs on your tours then?
Do I need to ask Gloucester? Munster destroyed us at home in the QF last season – I know what they sing I can assure you.

Of course Tamerlin’s mob then ruined their party a little…

I can almost hear the Kiwis groaning at you raising the ‘North North Auckland’ issue again!

	03-10-2003 13:50									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Of course Tamerlin’s mob then ruined their party a little…

Did we?



The songs they sang during the semi-final were really pleasant and I would like ours to be so colourful. The French supporters' songs are boisterous and generally don't have any traditional background. There are exceptions such as the "bet ceu" (not really sure of the orthograph) from Pau or the "Ce Canto" from Toulouse but the later is unfortunately not widely known and thus not sang by the crowd.

	03-10-2003 14:17									#268
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It's not just the "North North Auckland" issue though.It is things like Dan Bough not being able to get insurance, of Leota saying he wants the 20 grand from Wasps rather than represent Samoa, , of Raiwalui receiving a plea from Fiji and wondering if it's worth coming out of retirement.It's about teams like Georgia and Romania, whose basic passion for the game is being smothered.

	03-10-2003 15:03									#269
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But they are different issues surely? The state smaller unions are in is a seperate issue to just how large NZ can be when they wish it to be surely?

The issue of NZ naturalising anyone they feel like who shows a talent for rugby has been covered here before. We raised it when Rokocoko (Fijian) was unveiled as a new AB superstar this season. I am totally against it - as far as I can recall none of the kiwis see any problem with it at all. I don't think it troubled Finbar much either - but then the Australians indulge in it too of course.

Its not a debate that will go anywhere - the sides are too entrenched.

Tamerlin - it's quite an experience hosting an Irish team isn't it? I bet the club house was still full hours after the game finished?

*edit* Finbar may like this. Quoted from an interview Krige gave to a Bok newspaper:

"Martin Johnson is one of the dirtiest captains in world rugby. He is a good player and he gets his team behind him. For that you have to respect him."

Dear pot - kettle calling!

And even better:

"I have never played like I did at Twickenham since then. I said sorry to the people I needed to."

He said sorry. Oh thats all all right now then!!

Brilliant stuff from the Bok skipper.

Last edited by Havak on 03-10-2003 at 15:56

	03-10-2003 19:05									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If we may be serious it’s actually very unfair – and might indicate a fundamental mis-understanding of England by the players quoted (and that in turn may be good for us). This England team can and does adapt it’s game – more so than any other England team ever has.

I think it was just Ruben and Dougy having a playful stir of the poo pot. I don't think any of the NZ side are under any illusions about the England team, especially not after the Wellington game. Anyway, the context was planning the game against England - they were saying it was easier to plan their strategy against England than France, not actually play against them. Clive, on the other hand, said Aussie are more of an overall threat to England than NZ. Which is a strange thing to say given that the only way England will play Australia is if they beat us in the semi.

quote: Originally posted by Finbar So I have to come up with a story that will sustain for 90 minutes, entertain all ages from 7 to 70, and not cost more than $4 million to make.

That does sound challenging. Good luck!

quote: I wish. Frankly, they've been struggling for the last 18 months.

So what do you make of Nick Farr-Jones' comments, who rates your chances?

quote: So what is the basis of my confidence? If you break down our somewhat convoluted game it is about winning ball, advancing the ball and retaining the ball. In the first and third area, the Wallabies this year have performed surprisingly well. At scrum and line-out they have been well organised, and in using the two fliers in George Smith and Phil Waugh in the back row, the breakdown has been rewarding. But they have struggled to advance the possession, cross the advantage line and get in behind opposition lines. It is not that they do not possess gifted individuals, it is just that the combinations have not yet gelled.