25-09-2003 10:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So, in other words, take their goodwill with a grain of salt. I'm almost sure they will try and find the way to use us in some way or another against GWT.

And all the while we can use them against each other. Assuming the "strained relations" between those two are true it could work well to our advantage down the line. Once GCA is done for there will only be three superpowers and two of them will be on the same continent with strained relations. Sounds like a good opportunity for us in the long run if we can work it out that way.

	25-09-2003 11:29									#32
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I have reviewed their 'history'.

I am severely unimpressed with them imposing current affairs IRL onto the ISDG. They come across as a bunch of asinine kids playing politics.

The fact that they live with GWT should most likely work in our favour. Surely they could not cooperate with another representative of the Axis of Weasel

Most likely they are congratulating themselves on the defeat of the cheese eating surrender monkeys. They are most likely casting about for their Patton to defeat the next great test, the Hun.

Do not mistake me. We must remain cordial with these clowns. They may be useful for various things. However, if I could vote one civ off right now, it would be these... interesting people.

I will avoid contact with them. I would be more likely to spit on them than discuss anything positive.

	25-09-2003 11:37									#33
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btw, please put the breaks on a republic for anything deal with them. We really need to think on this.

Intel from GWT has CGN pressing on their borders. Do we really want an empowered CGN going after GWT just yet? Maybe it would be better if they got republic just a bit down the road, say about the time GWT gets their ansars.

Let's keep them in check vs each other, and not fall all over ourselves to make a deal that could result in a single civ 'other' continent.

	25-09-2003 11:54									#34
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Tell us how you really feel nye!

Seriously though, I think GWT's strength is close to what CGN's strength is so The Repblic is not going to boost CGN past GWT. Besides, GWT has been in a Republic for a while and has the Pyramids, they are a strong nation IMO. Though when GWT gets to Chiv, I think all hell will break loose. Selling The Republic for 300 gold is very good for us. We should also consider doing a WM exchange with them and GWT before GWT meets GCA and then GCA sells their soul to either GWT or CGN for techs (read Feud). Since we will be at war with GCA, GCA will love to sell their WM to GWT or CGN for Feud and/or Ancient time techs or both!

We might even consider talking with GWT and CGN about our war with GCA and let them know that we would consider GWT or CGN trading/selling Feud to GCA would not be seen in a favorable light.

	25-09-2003 12:45									#35
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Tell us how you really feel nye! Seriously though, I think GWT's strength is close to what CGN's strength is so The Repblic is not going to boost CGN past GWT. Besides, GWT has been in a Republic for a while and has the Pyramids, they are a strong nation IMO. Though when GWT gets to Chiv, I think all hell will break loose. Selling The Republic for 300 gold is very good for us. We should also consider doing a WM exchange with them and GWT before GWT meets GCA and then GCA sells their soul to either GWT or CGN for techs (read Feud). Since we will be at war with GCA, GCA will love to sell their WM to GWT or CGN for Feud and/or Ancient time techs or both!

If CGN is desperate for Republic, we can haggle a bit more for them to trade their world map. It would be an extremely valuable asset as we would not need to trade our map at all ever.

quote: We might even consider talking with GWT and CGN about our war with GCA and let them know that we would consider GWT or CGN trading/selling Feud to GCA would not be seen in a favorable light.

I disgree about the last part. Why? because they would also consider that we not trade with their enemy. If we are to double deal with GWT and CGN we can't act as hypocrites and tell them not to double deal with us and GCA.

	25-09-2003 13:07									#36
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Republic is a lot different that Feud.

CGN will not trade away their WM for The Republic unless they thought GWT would trade it away for....???

We tell GWT that they told us about their troubles with CGN too late, and that we had already negotiated a deal for The Repblic with CGN before we heard about their request.... That's the same reason we tell GWt about our war with GCA ahead of time. The fact is: GWT will find out about our war. There's no stopping it. If we talk with them(GWT) about it first, we can head off many things by doing so. Heck, we might even be able to sell contact with GCA to GWT; maybe the turn before they make contact themselves.

	25-09-2003 14:23									#37
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Ok, those worried about Republic making CGN too powerful too quickly against GWT and their immenent discovery of Chivalry and switch to Ansar Warriors have forgotten a rather important factor:

CGN is playing the Ottomans, which are NOT a Religious civ... they will undergo several turns of anarchy when and if they switch to Republic, so giving them Republic when GWT charges them would be a rather useless gift... they aren't going to switch to Republic when they have Ansar Warriors bearing down on their cities. For Republic to be useful, they'll need it well BEFORE a war.

The question then is how soon we believe GWT will not only have Chivaly, but will be in a position to use it. Furthermore, given how soon we believe the war might start, how soon before the war starts do we CGN would need Republic in order to be in Republic for the start of the war and to be able to reasonably defend themselves from the GWT attack without CGN itself becoming too powerful or CGN being too weak to stop the attack.

These will not be easy things to answer and we probably need the world map along with some idea of current force compositions to get any realistic handle on the answers to the above questions.

That said, we can probably go ahead and discuss how useful Republic would be to CGN right now. I'm sure Trip can use the knowledge of CGN's current MFG and GNP and make at least a rough estimate of their MFG and GNP under Republic. Then we can figure how many turns (very roughly) until GWT probably gets Chivalry... how much of a production advantage will CGN have over GWT in that time? Then, if the advantage is too much, how long should we delay before giving CGN Republic? etc, etc, etc.

As for NYE's comments about CGN, I actually got a similar impression from reading their history... these guys are clowns who were likely benefited by a lucky starting position. They're currently on a high because they stomped the inferior Grenoule.

As for CGN-GWT relations, we honestly just don't know enough right now about that to give a true assessment. I was the one arguing weeks ago that two powerhouse civs on a single continent with no-one else to fight is a recipe for CERTAIN conflict, but even I have to be at least a little skeptical and hold out the possibility that they MIGHT work together instead (though it's rather unlikely).

Ultimately, I think our goal is unquestionably to attempt to maintain a balance between GWT and CGN. To do that, we MUST discover who is currently the more powerful between them and then act to prop up the other just the necessary amount to keep the balance (and make a profit off of both of them in the process if possible ).

On the other hand, it might be advantageous for us to have the stronger of the two START a war with the weaker of the two, THEN have us prop up the weaker one. This reduces the chances that they will easily resolve their differences when Navigation comes around and inter-continental warfare becomes more possible.

A lot to think about, for sure...

	25-09-2003 14:38									#38
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Prior formed opinions notwithstanding, in addition to personalities and political interests, there is another issue that directs the allegiances of nations - even more so in this game than in reality - ease of communication.

It appears as if CGN may be uniquely easy to get a hold of for us (matched for others only by OUR availability), and WAY more so than GWT. This will certainly put them in a favourable light for us - the same deal proposed to both civs, under otherwise equal circumstances, would go first to the civ that communicated best and quickest. GWt has a language barrier, but that does not totally explain their reticence in emailing us back. We can't let this cloud our decisions, but it seems to me we may be with CGN for a large section of the game.

From reading their history, it strikes me how much CGN's actions resemble those of our objectives - despite having mutually favourable deals with neighbour Grenouille, they realised that these would be the first targets of their inevitable first war - and with good reason, from what little cold hard fact can be extracted from their history. Is this not exactly what we are doing with GCA - starting a war in which we hope to eliminate the target for no better reason than it benefits us? CGN may be canny and very efficient - despite the fact that early in their history they allowed their capital to enter civil disorder.

It is of course a mistake to buttonhole someone from so little contact (as I am perhaps about to do!), but I think this team may be very good for us, whilst our ambitions coincide. But at the same time we cannot give them any quarter, as they know exactly why they are in this - to win for their team.

Here's hoping for some good foreign affairs exchanges before too long. I guess I'll go register at CGN...

	25-09-2003 15:55									#39
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I have registered at CGN with MrWhereItsAt and would very much like to be registered for the embassy.

	25-09-2003 19:07									#40
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quote: I have registered at CGN with MrWhereItsAt and would very much like to be registered for the embassy.

Me too (with the same nickname as I use here).

quote: As for CGN-GWT relations, we honestly just don't know enough right now about that to give a true assessment. I was the one arguing weeks ago that two powerhouse civs on a single continent with no-one else to fight is a recipe for CERTAIN conflict, but even I have to be at least a little skeptical and hold out the possibility that they MIGHT work together instead (though it's rather unlikely).

What I'm most afraid of is that CGN and/or GWT, as soon as they realize we're at wat with GCA, forget about their mutual differences and decide to send over some units or settlers to our continent. Fortunately, they'll have to cross the rather large strait every time, so they might not want to risk it before Navigation.

Conclusion: we should be done with GCA before they discover Navigation.

	25-09-2003 23:47									#41
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BFM: Considering the ...ahem... remarkable skill and subtlety of Webring in their early diplomatic dealings with us, I don't think these two teams will be putting aside their differences. It looks like Webring already has distrust and war on their minds when they think of CGN, in fact.

(Gee. Darn.)

	26-09-2003 00:09									#42
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Well, that's good news for us then, I suppose.

	26-09-2003 08:27									#43
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On turn 121, our attack on GCA will begin. At what point should we feel comfortable informing CGN and/or GWT of this?

If we should hide this from CGN and/or GWT, what form of deception should I and Master Zen (and whoever else is conducting diplomacy with them) use?

If we are to be honest about the start of the war, at what point should we be so and how much and how little should we tell them?

I'd especially appreciate guidance from FAM Togas on this one.

	26-09-2003 09:11									#44
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As long as neither of them have contact with GCA, they won't know that we are at war with them, unless someone else tells them. What they don't need to know will not hurt them.

Besides, IF we DO take down GCA in quick time, then we don't really want them to know how long the actually fighting was, becuase it will show something of our streinght that we don't need them to know.

E_T

	26-09-2003 10:32									#45
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See, but that's just the problem... CFC is bound to mention the war to GWT. Whether GWT mentions it to CGN is up in the air, but it's entirely possible.

	26-09-2003 12:37									#46
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My feeling on the impending war and what comments we should make on it:

We should not mention it until asked.

Once asked, we should very frankly explain our situation, why we decided to go to war with GCA and be frank about starting it.

We should also underscore that we regret that we had to go to war, but this is a competition that we'd also like to win. Our starting land is crap, our score sucks, and we're never going to have a chance unless we took this risk.

We should tell them that GCA are very skilled warriors that fought CDG and CFC at the same time, and won. We know we are tangling with a very powerful team and we are going about it very carefully.

We hope that the war will go well, but was is always uncertain. We hope that they will respect that this war is very important to us, and ask them to please stay uninvolved in it. We would respect their wishes to do the same in the future should they get in a war with GWT ...

--Togas

	26-09-2003 14:09									#47
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Good attitude. Make it look like we're at a slight disadvantage.

	26-09-2003 15:21									#48
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I like it. I'll go with that if miccofl or someone ever finds out (which inevitably they will).

	27-09-2003 10:20									#49
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NOTE: Our deal with CFC (to keep them from trading away contacts to make cash) was that neither of us would sell/trade contacts without the other's approval, AND that we'd share contacts we found.

We are going to "share" our contact with CGN by selling CGN the email addy of CFC.

We make a little profit, and we fullfill our obligations to CFC.

Since CGN just offered us gold and gpt, we will have to wait a turn or so before getting them to hand over some more gold to speak to CFC.

--Togas

	21-10-2003 05:22									#50
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With CFC and CGN having contact, our next real item of business is to inform CGN of why we declared war on GCA in the first place, as we cannot rule out contact between these two before the war is over.

As far as I am concerned, there is no need to lie about what we did. We broke a long-standing NAP with GCA with our war for several reasons:

• CDG bound us and CFC in an alliance against GCA
  
• CFC (an in-game friend) was being taken apart by GCA despite our early attempts at reaching a peace settlement
  
• GCA was an aggressor - having eliminatd CDG and killing much of CFC
  
• just look at our starting point - we needed to expand SOMEwhere good!
  

	21-10-2003 05:39									#51
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Sounds like good reasons. But the needing to expand point almost always applies in civ, so perhaps we should leave it out.

We should put thinking we were next to be attacked at the top, as that will not apply to intercontinental relations for a while and will hopefully put CGN at ease.

	22-10-2003 14:29									#52
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Can we just re-edit MZ's message to GWT slightly and send it to CGN? That was more than adequate.

	22-10-2003 18:55									#53
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Could we send CGN my world map to have a mutual set of geographic references? Link to the big map

	22-10-2003 23:41									#54
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I think that would be fine civman200.

The first three points by MrWIA are enough for CGN. They need an ally against GWT, they won't question what we did too much because they are counting on a "friend" over here. Who else could it be?

Actaully, both GWT and CGN will soon be fighting over our favor, IMO.

	07-11-2003 05:57									#55
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Now that CGN reports they should have Mono in 4 turns it is time to reopen discussion on tech trade deals. Keep in mind that CFC reports they should get Mono in 12 and we have an agreement with them at present for which we fulfill our obligations when we send them Engineering this turn, in which they are to send us Mono. Thus we either stick to this and try to find another deal with CGN, or get the tech from CGN somehow (we have no techs to give them) and try to find a different way for CFC to pay us back.

	07-11-2003 08:35									#56
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As I said in the FA correspondance thread, I'm posting a short chat I just had with miccofl here:

quote: miccofl> long time no see Arnelos> yeah Arnelos> I've had connection problems recently Arnelos> how are things around here? miccofl> that sucks miccofl> well as I said to BigFree earlier we will be done with montheism in 4 turns, we need to discuss future tech cooperation Arnelos> I saw that in our FA thread when I was trying to catch up earlier miccofl> have you finished Invention yet? Arnelos> I honestly don't know Arnelos> I do'nt believe so, however miccofl> see if you can find out when if you would please Arnelos> sure

Togas, I assume from what I've read on the boards here that it is our intention to keep our deal with CFC regarding Monotheism. We are also a good 26 turns away from Invention at the present research rate.

What, exactly, should I tell CGN regarding Monotheism, Invention, and any future deals?

On a related issue, I assume from its absense in the FA logs, that no-one has yet told CGN about our breaking of the NAP with GCA. If so, I'll find a way to bring it up when chatting with miccofl in the near future.

	08-11-2003 06:54									#57
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Tell them this: Invention + contact with CFC for Theology. See what they think

btw, i am currently without internet access until monday (forgot to pay the phone bill before I left for Mexico City and I stayed there 5 days longer than I had planned). Sorry bout this, but please try and get some deal done, looking good so far.

	08-11-2003 12:31									#58
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Invention=44
Theology=40

So why do we give contact with CFC as a bonus if the trade already favors CGN?

Arnelos has already asked CGN for 100 gold for contact with CFC, under my direction. CGN will poll the issue if the Galley they are currently trying to cross with sinks. Otherwise, they don't need to buy it from us. I think he thought 100 gold was fair. If we get the 100, we will give half to CFC. One positive thing about giving CGN contact with CFC is that Mono will be cheaper for CFC to research once CGN gets it and once CFC has contact with CGN.

Arnelos, I think we should tell CGN that we will trade them Invention for Theology straight up. It favors them slightly, but it shows good faith on our part.

	08-11-2003 12:56									#59
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Arnelos, I think we should tell CGN that we will trade them Invention for Theology straight up. It favors them slightly, but it shows good faith on our part.

Sounds fine with me, but that's Togas' call, isn't it?

	08-11-2003 20:27									#60
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In that case call it the favoured option of at least two Consuls (even though one is outgoing ).