23-09-2003 10:56									#1
	A Question for the Religious Types Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Since Imran got the other thread deleted after a rather embarassing brainfart for him, I thought we'd try this again, toned down.

If you are religious, and if you believe that homosexuality is either a sin, not natural, or immoral:

1) Do you recognize that most homosexuals are deeply offended by that?
2) Do you care?

Also, for those to which this applies:
3) If you believe that homosexuals are okay, but homosexual sex is a sin -- can you please explain the logic behind that...

	23-09-2003 11:12									#2
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I think that (every) people born on this earth are born into sin. This does not mean that they have sinned at birth or anything of the sort. Rather what I mean is that people are different than what God created* them to be. That is what the whole thing about putting off mortality and putting on immortality is about (mentioned by Paul).

I consider Homosexuality actually to be a little different than a lot of the other things because sex is such a strong motivator for humans.

As far as I see it, homosexuals can (Attempt to) engage in homosexual relationships, heterosexual relationships, or no relationships.

In a homosexual relationship they can get all the good things from the lover/significant other relationship that heterosexuals can get.

In a Heterosexual relationship, the homosexual (I would imagine) would feel unhappy and unsatisfied and would probably cheat at times (since their sex drive would be driven in ways that the person who they were trying to ahve a relationship with could not handle). This seems to be a lot more negative than the above possibility.

And finally, staying nonsexual just does not work for most people (obviously).

Therefore I think that for most homosexuals, being ina loving homoseuxal relationship is the best thing for this world.

Jon Miller
* by created I mean whatever manner God used to cause man to exist (evolution, direct creation, ect)

	23-09-2003 11:16									#3
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Why can't all religious people be like you, Jon.

	23-09-2003 11:18									#4
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I'm not going to give to my personal opinions on this, but to give the official "party line" for the Church's teachings...

"1) Do you recognize that most homosexuals are deeply offended by that?"

That's obvious.

"2) Do you care?"

Yes, as such offense against God's rules can be an impediment towards the homosexual's relationship with God, and because of the psychological distress given to the homosexual.

"3) If you believe that homosexuals are okay, but homosexual sex is a sin -- can you please explain the logic behind that..."

Sexual attraction towards the same sex can be regarded as a temptation towards the sin of homosexual sex. Homosexuals are human beings due full dignity as they are still human beings with souls who are made in the image and likeness of God. They merely have a temptation to a certain type of sin. It is worth noting that homosexual sex is a grave sin, but so are a lot of other things- including birth control. So while practicing homosexuals are in material sin, so are the vast majority of heterosexual couples.

	23-09-2003 11:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Sexual attraction towards the same sex can be regarded as a temptation towards the sin of homosexual sex. Homosexuals are human beings due full dignity as they are still human beings with souls who are made in the image and likeness of God. They merely have a temptation to a certain type of sin. It is worth noting that homosexual sex is a grave sin, but so are a lot of other things- including birth control. So while practicing homosexuals are in material sin, so are the vast majority of heterosexual couples.

Which is the greater sin, living a life of unhappiness pretending to be someone you're not, or being gay?

	23-09-2003 11:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Which is the greater sin, living a life of unhappiness pretending to be someone you're not, or being gay?

That's a very poignant question, Asher. The problem with this sin is that like unlike most others this one is often based on genuine love.

This is a difficult area, and one that I obviously am going to have problems explaining. To try give an answer, though, the Church would never ask anyone to pretend to be someone they are not. The Church certainly would not want anyone to lie, and in a compassionate community of Catholics the homosexual should be able to request the support and prayer of their friends and of their priest.

As far as living a life of unhappiness, well, the teaching of the Church is simply that chastity and unhapiness are not nessecarily bound together, as the modern view would typically indicate, what with our culture's emphasis on sex. If the Church viewed chastity to be an evil thing, it would not honor the Blessed Virgin Mary's virginity as it does. It would not require chastity of it's priests and monks. It would not mention a single life outside of religious vocations as a possible vocation.

	23-09-2003 12:55									#7
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Do religions other than Christianity preach against homosexuality?

	23-09-2003 13:05									#8
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Islam is a lot worse

	23-09-2003 13:18									#9
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Stone them ponces!

	23-09-2003 15:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Which is the greater sin, living a life of unhappiness pretending to be someone you're not, or being gay?

The latter, obviously, since the Church actually requires the former of its priest and nuns.

	23-09-2003 16:05									#11
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quote: Which is the greater sin, living a life of unhappiness pretending to be someone you're not, or being gay?

Well, I was going to say that living a life of unhappiness is rather pious and certainly not a sin, but Rufus already stole my thunder. Thanks.

	23-09-2003 16:30									#12
	Re: A Question for the Religious Types Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Asher Since Imran got the other thread deleted after a rather embarassing brainfart for him, I thought we'd try this again, toned down. If you are religious, and if you believe that homosexuality is either a sin, not natural, or immoral: 1) Do you recognize that most homosexuals are deeply offended by that? 2) Do you care?

I'm not religious, but why would they? If God makes something a rule and you believe in God, there is nothing that can be done about it.

On the other hand. apart from the godhatesfags mob many Christians I know think that homosexuality is a sin on par with masturbation and having impure thoughts. Hardly the end of the world, is it?

quote: Also, for those to which this applies: 3) If you believe that homosexuals are okay, but homosexual sex is a sin -- can you please explain the logic behind that...

Because they think that everyone is worthy of foregiveness - even multiple murderers. After all, everyone's a sinner.

Not hard, is it?

	23-09-2003 16:33									#13
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I personally am utterly indifferent on the issue, but Orthodoxy's official answer is pretty much in line with what Agathon and Shi said, IIRC.

	23-09-2003 16:54									#14
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Pretty much what Agathon said.

The concept of sin is far more than specific acts which we as humans disaprove of. Jesus condemned religious hypocrites and received "sinners". In his eyes the common sinners were more righteous than people who condemned them. Jesus receives sinners and invites them to follow him. All who come to him have to repent of their own desires and seek the will of God wherever that leads. I have been single for 55 years and denied myself the pleasure of married life because I felt that God was leading me in another direction. God asks nothing more from gay people than he does from everyone else. Jesus said to deny yourself and take up your cross daily and follow him. Everyone bears a cross of one sort or another.

	23-09-2003 17:42									#15
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So you dont miss being loved or loving someone else (no I dont mean the love towards a friend, I mean real love...)? Isnt such a lifestyle very depressing?

	23-09-2003 17:58									#16
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I'm not actually religious, but I was once, and I know people in the Jewish community (liberal judaism), and there was no hostility or disapproval of homosexuality. The biblical crap against it is seen as a relic from an ancient text designed for a dead culture that lived in the desert 3000 years ago. I suppose its only only the orthodox jews that take it literally .

	23-09-2003 18:12									#17
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Leviticus says that you shall not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination.

Orthodox Judaism considers the bible text the word of G-d, and continues to consider homosexual acts as forbidden, though more "progressive" orthodox leaders will consider Gays as "ill" and thus not worthy of hatred.

Reform Judaism sees much of the bible as of human origin, and laws other than ethical imperatives as guidelines, to be dispensed with when failing the test of reason. Though in the past reform Jews along with other citizens of the West saw "heterosexual privilege" as very much in line with reason, most dont anymore.

Conservative Judaism acknowledges what we have learned about the human origin of the biblical text, but finds in the Jewish peoples commitment to it and history with it evidence of divine inspiration. It treats biblical law as binding, but attempts to use traditional Jewish interpretative techniques to modify those laws that the Jewish people can no longer live with. With respect to homosexuality the movement is split - especially on the issues of gay ordination and gay commitment ceremonies. The traditional interpretation of Leviticus goes pretty far back, after all. And unlike Christians, we take seriously ALL the specific laws in Leviticus, not just the homophobic ones. Some rabbis have attempted some modern reinterpretations - one I am familiar with claims that the biblical injunction must be in seen in context of biblical texts like the story of Sodom, where homosexual sex is exploitative. Ergo the injunction would not apply to a commited, loving relationship. In addition to disputes over interpretation, there is a largely generational split wrt to overall attitude to homosexuality. Overall the movement is still struggling, to find a way to reconcile compassion with textual loyalty, to change when required butto do so cautiously, recognizing that we dont always understand all the implications of changes we make. I am proud to be part of such a movement.

Oh and of course even liberal and reform jews would not call the bible crap, or consdier ancient jewish culture as entirely dead.

	23-09-2003 18:33									#18
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i'm catholic, and i know what the church has to say on it.
i'm not a good catholic, which means that i don't really listen to them on this matter.

i have no problem with gays. if they want to do whatever, let them, so long as it does not infringe upon my rights. sure, i can buy it's a sin. i can buy that the church says it's immoral, even if i don't really give a hoot what people do in their bedrooms.
so what? we all sin, so why should i judge others for sinning when i myself don't follow all the precepts that i should? hell, i've lied to my parents, think that abortion is not something i can enforce, believe that contraception is by and large a good thing (and a device employed alas far too sparingly), and haven't kept myself pure for marriage. and for me to say that homosexuals are sinning worse than i am? for me to judge them because they aren't following a code of morals that they may or may not believe in? it smacks of arrogance and hypocrisy.

what it boils down to is that if it's really a sin, and homosexuals want to "save" themselves, they have to do it, and it has to be their journey. they have to come to the realization themselves, and it has to be god that moves them, not a mere sinning human like me, or a televangelist, or any of those holier-than-thou fundamentalists.
if they don't believe it's a sin, that's fine too, because they don't have to believe in our religion.

i honestly cannot understand why so many people, in their quest for "right", decide to make it their business what people do behind closed doors in the privacy of their own home. turn your gaze and your wrath inwards first, before daring the venture out and cast stones.

	23-09-2003 18:35									#19
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Does it really matter?

I mean, the set of people who really hate homosexuals is not coextensive with the set of Christians or Jews or Muslims. There are plenty of non-religious people who loathe queers and plenty who do.

On the other hand, most of the religious posters on this forum, while they consider homosexuality and gay marriage to be a moral wrong, are not going to be party to physical harm or extreme forms of discrimination against homosexuals, simply because they are decent people. It isn't their fault that the nutjob extremists get most of the press.

	23-09-2003 19:20									#20
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i would point out another thing.

While it may not be desirable for Judaism to ordain gay rabbis, or conduct Gay commitment ceremonies, it does NOT follow that we should oppose the state recognizing some form of same sex union. After all we accept that the state recognizes all kinds of marriages that Judaism does not.

	23-09-2003 20:44									#21
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I would like to answer this question.
I believe that any sex outside of marriage is immoral, thus wrong and I am sure that many are offended by it including gay people. I stand up for what I believe even if everyone in the world thought I was wrong. With these kind of issues I dont think anyone, what ever you believe should be affect by others that are "offended" by what you stand for. If I went arround worring who I might offend because of my beliefs I would not even have a spine .

	23-09-2003 20:48									#22
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I like your attitude Jack_www.

	23-09-2003 20:54									#23
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there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in. but don't judge others without taking a good long look at yourself.

	23-09-2003 20:55									#24
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When I was religious I did not believe that homosexuality was a sin anymore than I believed eating pork was a sin. Remember what Jeshua said, it is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out.

	23-09-2003 20:57									#25
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quote: Remember what Jeshua said, it is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out.

It goes in and out, doesn't it?

	23-09-2003 20:59									#26
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Smilie when you say that.

	23-09-2003 21:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in. but don't judge others without taking a good long look at yourself.

I dont judge others. I leave that to God. I also live by what I believe. I dont hate gay people, like I dont hate people that decide it is alright to have sex when ever they feel like it. I think what they do is wrong but I never judge people because I dont know all the facts ect.

	23-09-2003 21:47									#28
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*Agathon wonders why LOTM insists on turning every single thread he participates in into a lecture about Judaism*

Last edited by Agathon on 23-09-2003 at 21:56

	23-09-2003 22:07									#29
	Re: A Question for the Religious Types Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Asher Since Imran got the other thread deleted after a rather embarassing brainfart for him, I thought we'd try this again, toned down.

Actually, dear, you got the other thread deleted, and the only reason you didn't get banned is that I have a very nasty pulled muscle at the base of my ribcage, so at the time, you weren't worth the pain of the few extra keystrokes. By the time the anti-inflammatories and painkillers kicked in (they've worn off now :hint: ), I didn't give a damn.

So yes, keep it toned down.

	23-09-2003 22:10									#30
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I am not religious, but I don't think that homosexuality, on itself, is ethicaly on par with heterosexuality. Hetrosexuality is obviously the most common way things work, and is needed for continuation of society. Homosexuality forces society to tackle with a different way of life in the very core of human existance, sexual relationships. It WOULD be easier for everyone if everyone was straight. but.........

Alas, ( ) many people, for some reason, do not follow that pattern, for some reason. Most chances are, it's the way they were wired during their early years, by these or other factors, just like some kids were wired for other things, or perhaps, were designed genetically to prefer other kids. So, of course, in the field of sexuality, gay people are not the standard, and not the 'best' way to behave, if we look at the socium.

So what?

I return to my favourite example: Smoking.

Smoking is not the 'best' way to behave, but we don't ban smokers from our society, we don't ostracize them. They're just ordinary folk, with a peculiar habit. Something we wouldn't like our kids to do.

Why homosexuality is different?