25-09-2003 03:31									#151
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For this post, I'm going to assume that religious=Christian.

I am not religious. I do not believe in God, or the holy spirit. Jesus is a well documented historical figure, so I'd be stupid if I said that I do not believe in him But I most certainly do not believe that he was the son of God.

Furthermore, I think that homosexuality is yucky. Not like "ooops I got urine on my fingers, I gotta wash my hands" yucky. No more like "someone is forcing me to drink dark ale mixed with vomit and tuna" yucky. I think that most people feel that way. It's a question of what we are brought up to believe/feel. No offense, Asher. But I really feel that.

But what I also believe, is that homosexuals have every possible and even impossible right to be homosexuals, practice homosexuality, live homosexuality and dress homosexual whereever, whenever and with whomever they want to (as long as it's okay with the other guy ).

Now for the religious part. Religious people probably feel the same way that I do. They are repulsed by what they see. Hell, they even have a bible that says that it is bad (a bible written by dudes that probably felt the same way about homosexuality). So being religious people, they want to make homosexuals see the error of their ways, and show them how wonderful life would be, if they would just give up on homosexuality, and embrace Jesus.

So thwarted are theur minds, that they actually belive that homosexuals will be happier with God, than they are with being gay.

So I don't think that religious people think that homosexuals are worse sinners than, say, thieves or murderers. They are just doing what they do best: Trying to mold other people in their own images.

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 03:37									#152
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quote: Calling Imran a Muslim Cowboy is way out of order

Especially since I'm not a "Muslim" , due to the fact that the Islamic religion doesn't believe it is a race, like Judaism does.

	25-09-2003 03:40									#153
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quote: They are just doing what they do best: Trying to mold other people in their own images.

Asmodean:

So why then are we called 'Christians' and servants of Christ, if we are simply trying to mould people in our own image?

quote: I thought it was an accepted fact that the Old and New Testaments have suffered from alterations - intentionally and unintentionally...

Verto:

On minor details, like some of the temple measurements in the OT, or in some cases, where we don't really understand the Hebrew word, like the construction of the Ark.

But on what God says about homosexuality as sin? No. There is no evidence to suggest that this was added later to the bible.

	25-09-2003 03:42									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Verto: On minor details, like some of the temple measurements in the OT, or in some cases, where we don't really understand the Hebrew word, like the construction of the Ark. But on what God says about homosexuality as sin? No. There is no evidence to suggest that this was added later to the bible.

I would agree with you with the second part, but must disagree with the first - the Bible has been altered to a greater extent than that.

	25-09-2003 03:49									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asmodean: So why then are we called 'Christians' and servants of Christ, if we are simply trying to mould people in our own image?

Ben: First remember that I'm talking about fundamentalism here. I have no way of knowing if you are one, or even if you accept the term.

Second, with no exception, the strongly religious people I have met were missionaries in some way or another. And frankly, that pisses me off. Sure, okay, you like your religion, and up to a point I will listen to how wonderful you think it is, but at some point , you're just going to have to accept that I am not a willing recipient, and move on to other subjects. Sadly most religious people fail to do that.

There are things that I care deeply about, but I can talk about other things. In my view, religious people care deeply about their beliefs, and can not talk about other things.

Whether you are servants of Christ or not, I really don't care. But I do think that you are trying to make the world what you want it to be.

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 03:49									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon So you weren't being a snot in the previous thread? Calling Imran a Muslim Cowboy is way out of order - he's a nice guy and in no way deserves to be treated like that. How many of the Christians here have come out and called you a "****ing Sodomite"? None, because they're all polite people.

How is that even remotely comparable?
If I listened and harped about how great country music was, you could call me a gay cowboy all you like.

The comparable "****ing Sodomite" comment would be "****ing Muslim", which would entirely be out of line.

quote: So complaining about racial slurs made against other posters and constant abuse and thread wrecking is being the thought police?

What racial slur?
And it was my thread, the person who wrecked it was you who kept trolling that I apparently had no right to be upset by how lots of hardcore Christian treat gays.

You are a pretentious *******, Agathon. You constantly twist and manipulate everything until you think you win, then you gloat.

There were no "racial slurs", the closest thing would be a "muslim cowboy" comment which perfectly describes a muslim who advocates country music as far as I'm concerned, and is certainly no slur -- in the same way "gay cowboy" or "Christian cowboy" is no slur. Further, you never once complained about that until just now, and yet you used it in your justification for your spammy threadjack.

You really need to learn a lot about making an argument, especially for someone who is teaching that crap. I imagine you are on a short-term contract until you're done your graduate work, and would not make for a real prof...

	25-09-2003 03:54									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean But I do think that you are trying to make the world what you want it to be. Asmodean

Isn't that what everyone does? Asher tries to make the world into what he wants it to be - a place where homosexuals are 'accepted', for lack of better word, and where the general population is a slave to MS( )

Others work to make the world more Communistic, more peaceful, more environmentally responsible. The list goes on forever.

	25-09-2003 03:58									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Isn't that what everyone does?

Not this much, no. I wouldn't ever dream of condemning anybody for doing anything that isn't strictly prohibited by the laws of Denmark.

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 04:00									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean For this post, I'm going to assume that religious=Christian. I am not religious. Asmodean

You're a perfect example of why people ignorant on a subject shouldn't speak to it.

	25-09-2003 04:04									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I would agree with you with the second part, but must disagree with the first - the Bible has been altered to a greater extent than that.

the old testament has changed very little in over 2000 years

the new testament has changed very little in over 1500 years

and evidence is lacking to support changes or lack of changes previous to that

as such, I don't see how you can say (or anyone else) about alterations when there is no evidence (like large numbers of prealteration texts)

while many theologians do think that there were alterations (even of the drastic sort)

there is no direct evidence of any

Jon Miller

	25-09-2003 04:06									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Not this much, no. I wouldn't ever dream of condemning anybody for doing anything that isn't strictly prohibited by the laws of Denmark. Asmodean

aren't you getting after christians for trying to make the world the way they want it to be?

isn't that the same as trying to make the world the way you want it to be?

(BTW, sorry about the recent thread jacks, if we want to continue this we should start a new thread, this is about religion and homosexuality)

jon Miller

	25-09-2003 04:06									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And it was my thread, the person who wrecked it was you who kept trolling that I apparently had no right to be upset by how lots of hardcore Christian treat gays.

A lot of typing would be saved if you would grow up and realise that typing "**** you!" when other people are trying to politely discuss their views, even if it offends you, is a despicable way to behave and no way to conduct a reasonable discussion.

	25-09-2003 04:06									#163
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The Bible changes versions to pattern the speech of the day, to make it easier to read.

	25-09-2003 04:06									#164
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So you never make assumptions, Slowwhand?

I didn't include any other religions, because they were not relevant to the point i wanted to make.

Please don't try to lecture me on methods.

For the record, I meant no disrespect to any religions, but I have to write based on me experience, and since I have never actually met a Jew, and know next to nothing about their attitudes towards gay people, I felt that it would be wrong to include Judaism in my post. Same goes for islamic.

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 04:08									#165
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The Bible changes versions to pattern the speech of the day, to make it easier to read.

Sometimes badly as in the substitution of "In the beginning was the Word" for "en arche en ho logos".

	25-09-2003 04:10									#166
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Oh yeah....and Slowwhand:

Just because I am not religious doesn't mean that I have no experience with religion.

Would be hard to avoid with my grandfather being a priest and all.................

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 04:13									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean So you never make assumptions, Slowwhand? I didn't include any other religions, because they were not relevant to the point i wanted to make. Please don't try to lecture me on methods. For the record, I meant no disrespect to any religions, but I have to write based on me experience, and since I have never actually met a Jew, and know next to nothing about their attitudes towards gay people, I felt that it would be wrong to include Judaism in my post. Same goes for islamic. Asmodean

I mean, I wouldn't propose to know issues relevant to Gays, so I wouldn't be arrogant enough to speak on their views.

You, as a non-religious person, are blathering your opinion, which is based on nothing.

	25-09-2003 04:15									#168
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Oh, and Asmodean.
My brother is a mechanic.
I don't know shitfromshineola about repairing a car's engine these days.

Very similar to your situation, isn't it?

	25-09-2003 04:23									#169
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I mean, I wouldn't propose to know issues relevant to Gays, so I wouldn't be arrogant enough to speak on their views. You, as a non-religious person, are blathering your opinion, which is based on nothing.

Well it is based on the fact that I don't like people telling what is right and wrong, except when they can point it out in the laws of my country.

Asmodean

	25-09-2003 04:47									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon A lot of typing would be saved if you would grow up and realise that typing "**** you!" when other people are trying to politely discuss their views, even if it offends you, is a despicable way to behave and no way to conduct a reasonable discussion.

There was no reasonable discussion to begin with when somebody degrades you to the point of being someone purely after lust rather than love, casually.

That is infinitely more offensive than a generic "**** you" in response to that comment. Any sane person could realize that, a philosopher would struggle with it for years.

A "**** you" is a succinct and accurate way to express my opinion of someone.

There is no way to reasonably hold a debate with pigheaded bigots who play it off "politely" and "casually". If you were really any kind of intellectual you would be able to discern why it's still just offensive for him to say what he did as saying "all them homofags are after is sex, sex, sex". That's the exact same thing as he said, but put bluntly. They are both equally offensive. The fact that he put it politely and subtly doesn't mean jack **** unless you're a superficial reader, like you apparently are.

And I don't see how a "**** you" in response to a grossly offensive comment is any less despicable than a gross negative generalization against a minority.

At least I have the balls to be blunt, rather than guise it.

	25-09-2003 04:55									#171
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I suppose it's as offensive as having your religion belittled as believing in "Santa Claus, or Fairies, etc." If you knew anything about sincerely religious people you would understand.

For some reason I can't find a post in which Ben, or Lincoln resort to abuse. I guess the God thing must be working.

Strange that.....

	25-09-2003 04:58									#172
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quote: First remember that I'm talking about fundamentalism here. I have no way of knowing if you are one, or even if you accept the term. Second, with no exception, the strongly religious people I have met were missionaries in some way or another.

To many I would be a liberal, to others, I would be a fundamentalist. The term has degenerated into whoever has a stricter biblical interpretation than you.

As for the missionary point, I don't have that calling, like the professionals, but my church does expect every member to be able to tell others about what they believe and why.

	25-09-2003 08:12									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www God did not create humans inperfect. The first 2 humans were perfect, but sin and pass that on to the rest of us. THat is why we have the problems we have and humans are imperfect, not because God decided to play games with humans.

You're kidding, right? Of course God decided to play games. This is exactly what I mean.

Let's look at the old Garden of Eden fairy tale, shall we? God creates us as perfect; then puts us in a quasi-paradisial garden in which he's placed a Forbidden Tree (why? WTF was the point of the forbidden tree?), then allows Satan to pop round (yes, "allows," since Mr All-Knowing All-Powerful, by definition must have known Satan was there and could have tossed him out), then let's Satan talk Eve into disobedience, then booms out: "Ha! It was all a set-up! You lose! No soup for you!"

WTF? Is God really this bored? This petty? This sadistic? Maybe the human invention you worship as God is, but not God.

	25-09-2003 08:14									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi . . . but my church does expect every member to be able to tell others about what they believe and why.

Ah -- so this is why your thoughts are screwed up -- you belong to that kind of church.

	25-09-2003 08:33									#175
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Looks in dictionary.

Evangelical:

"emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual."

Yeah, that kind of church.

	25-09-2003 08:37									#176
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quote: WTF? Is God really this bored? This petty? This sadistic? Maybe the human invention you worship as God is, but not God.

He gives Adam a wife, a lush garden, lots of food, work to keep himself occupied. Heck, he even creates Adam from nothing. I don't call that sadistic.

Why the tree? Scripture does not answer that question. All we know is that God put a tree in the garden. And yes, God tests people. Consider what would have happened had Eve refused?

	25-09-2003 08:41									#177
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quote: A "**** you" is a succinct and accurate way to express my opinion of someone.

That, or a succinct and accurate statement of the lusty desires that reside deep in your love-less body.

	25-09-2003 08:45									#178
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Ben: We're all God's children, right? Okay...

I'm a parent. I give my daughter life, then give her a beautiful bedroom full of everything she could ever want. Then, in that bedroom, I place a chocolate chip cookie, and tell her "Honey, you can do whatever you want in this bedroom, but don't eat the cookie." Then, I allow Uncle Satan to enter the bedroom, even though I know that he's going to encourage my little girl to eat the cookie. And he does. And she does. And then I burst in and cry, "You ate the cookie! You must leave this beautiful bedroom forever! From now on you sleep in the basement, on the floor!"

Now, as a parent, do I seem like I'm wise and loving...or that I'm a petty, vindictive, sadistic monster? If you knew me, would you admire me...or call Social Services ASAP?

	25-09-2003 09:04									#179
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quote: I'm a parent. I give my daughter life,

Do you consider yourself more valuable, or equally valuable to your daughter?

The relationship between God and Adam, or between God and Eve will be quite different than that between you and your daughter.

God made us, therefore, he ought to be able to test his creations.

	25-09-2003 09:07									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sometimes badly as in the substitution of "In the beginning was the Word" for "en arche en ho logos".

How would you translate this? Any other examples which come to mind? (No troll - would just like to know for the sake of knowing.) thanks.