24-09-2003 12:47									#121
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Am I the only one here that thinks that God, as depicted by Ben Kenobi, is a complete a55hole?

Here's a guy who says (to gays among others): "Okay, here's the deal: I'm going to lay down a list of rules I want you to obey, but then I'm going to create you in such a way as to be predisposed to break those rules. Then, you get to live for what is, to me, a mere moment, after which I'll see how you did with those rules, then consign you forever to either everlasting bliss or everlasting torment. And why am I doing this? Because even though I'm the all-powerful Lord of the Universe and you, by contrast, are nothing, I get really pissy if you don't revere me and do exactly as I say."

This is the guy I'm supposed to worship -- according to some versions of monotheism, with perpetual prayer? F*ck that. That's not God; that's a middle-school bully, and one that doesn't even have the advantage of being undeniably real.

	24-09-2003 13:02									#122
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Rufus:

Here's the alternatives.

1. People are born with a fixed sexual orientation and stay that way for the rest of their life.

2. People start with no fixed sexual orientation, and pick which one they like.

I think that my predisposition hypothesis does a better job than either of these.

quote: Okay, here's the deal: I'm going to lay down a list of rules I want you to obey, but then I'm going to create you in such a way as to be predisposed to break those rules. Then, you get to live for what is, to me, a mere moment, after which I'll see how you did with those rules, then consign you forever to either everlasting bliss or everlasting torment.

I think the key is in this part of the statement.

"a mere moment."

Yes, it is impossible for anyone to not sin in their time on Earth, but this too shall pass. Fortunately, for us, God judges us not on how we compare with others, but on how well we do with what we have. If you have a particularly rotten temperment, and yet you resist temptation, God understands the pain that you are currently suffering.

The key is to remind yourself, that our time on Earth passes away in a mere moment compared to our eternal reward. Things that seem to have a great hold on us in the short term, suddenly seem much less rewarding from the perspective of eternity.

Secondly, you are very right, that this God is cruel, since none of us can meet his law. This is why it is necessary for Christ to redeem each one of us, so that believing him, we receive salvation.

	24-09-2003 13:03									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Am I the only one here that thinks that God, as depicted by Ben Kenobi, is a complete a55hole? Here's a guy who says (to gays among others): "Okay, here's the deal: I'm going to lay down a list of rules I want you to obey, but then I'm going to create you in such a way as to be predisposed to break those rules. Then, you get to live for what is, to me, a mere moment, after which I'll see how you did with those rules, then consign you forever to either everlasting bliss or everlasting torment. And why am I doing this? Because even though I'm the all-powerful Lord of the Universe and you, by contrast, are nothing, I get really pissy if you don't revere me and do exactly as I say." This is the guy I'm supposed to worship -- according to some versions of monotheism, with perpetual prayer? F*ck that. That's not God; that's a middle-school bully, and one that doesn't even have the advantage of being undeniably real.

	24-09-2003 13:15									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Rufus: Here's the alternatives. 1. People are born with a fixed sexual orientation and stay that way for the rest of their life. 2. People start with no fixed sexual orientation, and pick which one they like. I think that my predisposition hypothesis does a better job than either of these.

Perhaps. But you ignore...

3. Sexuality is so enormously complex that we really don't understand it at all, and so subjecting it to superstitious prejudices originating a couple of thousand years ago -- with people who killed animals and isolated their menstruating women in outbuildings in order to please their Sky-God -- just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

	24-09-2003 13:34									#125
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quote: and isolated their menstruating women in outbuildings in order to please their Sky-God

Hey, if the Sky-God was smart enough to protect us all from PMS, I'm all about a return to paganism.

	24-09-2003 13:35									#126
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If you go gay, you're protected from PMS.

	24-09-2003 13:39									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If you go gay, you're protected from PMS.

Spoken like a man without a sister

	24-09-2003 13:49									#128
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quote: 3. Sexuality is so enormously complex that we really don't understand it at all,

quote: so subjecting it to superstitious prejudices

In the absence of knowledge, why is the religious perspective mere superstition? How can the so-called scientific views carry more weight?

	24-09-2003 13:55									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi In the absence of knowledge, why is the religious perspective mere superstition? How can the so-called scientific views carry more weight?

Scientists know they don't know. The religious and superstitious don't know that they don't know, because they conflate belief with knowledge.

	24-09-2003 15:27									#130
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I'm not religious, however if i was i would think that God never said anything about Gay people, rather it has been addedd by the authors of variuos religious texts who of course also said slavery was ok and women should be treated like dirt.

	24-09-2003 17:37									#131
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Eh, if you're going to get all spiritual-angsty, why don't you ask why God made people who are predisposed to more serious and obvious vices, like sociopaths, voyeurs, kleptos, sexual arsonists or child molesters? Why would he make people with bad tempers, or babies with heroin addictions? Variety? Idunno. This is usually where the devil comes into the argument. Barring that, it may be worth noting that many mental disorders(I'm not saying homosexuality is one, this is a metaphor) have advantages and disadvantages. A Christian might say that God made these people with INCREDIBLE fashion sense, and they perverted their gift for evil ends. [/Casual devil's advocate]
C'mon, raise sensible objections, people.

	24-09-2003 18:58									#132
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But it still comes down to saying, "we're not really sure why homosexuals exist, what makes them homosexuals, and whether there existence has any larger purpose. So, until we have a better understanding of that, we're sticking with the beliefs of folks who also thought that the sun revolved around the earth and society was best governed by patriachal clans."

	24-09-2003 19:05									#133
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I'm not religious, however if i was i would think that God never said anything about Gay people, rather it has been addedd by the authors of variuos religious texts who of course also said slavery was ok and women should be treated like dirt.

People who live from the Old Testament are remembering Sodom and Gomorrah.
As a Christian, my contention is that Christ's birth changed how redemption is given.

	24-09-2003 19:09									#134
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What do scientific or governmental beliefs have to do with spirituality or ethics? There were lots of brilliant physicists working for the Nazis, and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. It's not very nice to make personal attacks against dead people who can't fight back, now, is it?

	24-09-2003 19:19									#135
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand People who live from the Old Testament are remembering Sodom and Gomorrah. As a Christian, my contention is that Christ's birth changed how redemption is given.

Good point, that I think is something that the condemers and accusers tend to forget.

	24-09-2003 20:59									#136
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand People who live from the Old Testament are remembering Sodom and Gomorrah. As a Christian, my contention is that Christ's birth changed how redemption is given.

Me and Slowwhand agree on something?

	24-09-2003 22:04									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Am I the only one here that thinks that God, as depicted by Ben Kenobi, is a complete a55hole? Here's a guy who says (to gays among others): "Okay, here's the deal: I'm going to lay down a list of rules I want you to obey, but then I'm going to create you in such a way as to be predisposed to break those rules. Then, you get to live for what is, to me, a mere moment, after which I'll see how you did with those rules, then consign you forever to either everlasting bliss or everlasting torment. And why am I doing this? Because even though I'm the all-powerful Lord of the Universe and you, by contrast, are nothing, I get really pissy if you don't revere me and do exactly as I say." This is the guy I'm supposed to worship -- according to some versions of monotheism, with perpetual prayer? F*ck that. That's not God; that's a middle-school bully, and one that doesn't even have the advantage of being undeniably real.

God did not create humans inperfect. The first 2 humans were perfect, but sin and pass that on to the rest of us. THat is why we have the problems we have and humans are imperfect, not because God decided to play games with humans.

	24-09-2003 22:08									#138
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand People who live from the Old Testament are remembering Sodom and Gomorrah. As a Christian, my contention is that Christ's birth changed how redemption is given.

no need to bash judaism. at least my people don't believe in eternal suffering, like you primitives.

	24-09-2003 22:21									#139
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Hmm, so what's this "sheol" your heart keeps drawing near to?

	24-09-2003 22:29									#140
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it doesn't last forever. In the end, the soul is cleansed, and returns to god.

or so they say.

	24-09-2003 22:33									#141
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Have you ever seen "Defending Your Life"?

The concept in it is that when you die you must go through a "court" like process that determines if you either go to heaven (if you are 'good') or are "recycled" or reincarnated (if you are 'bad')...

Interesting concept, IMO.

	24-09-2003 23:16									#142
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quote: no need to bash judaism. at least my people don't believe in eternal suffering, like you primitives.

Jewish hell rules!!!

	24-09-2003 23:36									#143
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I don't (And my denomination doesn't, I beleive) beleive in eternal suffering either

Jon Miller

	24-09-2003 23:46									#144
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So what happens after you go to Hell? Is all hell a place of purging sins, and then uniting with god?

quote: Jewish hell rules!!!

Better keep that attitude, since you're going there.
(and so am I. )

	25-09-2003 03:00									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You took issue with it before I said that. And I think Lincoln's statement was far more offensive than a generic "**** you" can ever be. Hence the "**** you".

So you weren't being a snot in the previous thread? Calling Imran a Muslim Cowboy is way out of order - he's a nice guy and in no way deserves to be treated like that. How many of the Christians here have come out and called you a "****ing Sodomite"? None, because they're all polite people.

quote: Personally I think you're one of the biggest problems on this board, you constantly stir **** when it doesn't need to be stirred. And you've got this big condescending holier-than-thou thought-police vibe about you that annoys me (and no doubt many other people) to no end.

So complaining about racial slurs made against other posters and constant abuse and thread wrecking is being the thought police?

quote: You're not "all that", Agathon, you're merely an instructor in a field that has no direct use anymore. You are way down there on society's food chain, contrary to what you seem to believe.

Still managed to "kick your ass up and down" the last thread we had about that, according to other posters.

	25-09-2003 03:05									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So what happens after you go to Hell? Is all hell a place of purging sins, and then uniting with god? quote: Jewish hell rules!!! Better keep that attitude, since you're going there. (and so am I. )

no

in my beleif there is no hell

so existence just ends for those not going to heaven

Jon Miller

	25-09-2003 03:16									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Am I the only one here that thinks that God, as depicted by Ben Kenobi, is a complete a55hole? Here's a guy who says (to gays among others): "Okay, here's the deal: I'm going to lay down a list of rules I want you to obey, but then I'm going to create you in such a way as to be predisposed to break those rules. Then, you get to live for what is, to me, a mere moment, after which I'll see how you did with those rules, then consign you forever to either everlasting bliss or everlasting torment. And why am I doing this? Because even though I'm the all-powerful Lord of the Universe and you, by contrast, are nothing, I get really pissy if you don't revere me and do exactly as I say." This is the guy I'm supposed to worship -- according to some versions of monotheism, with perpetual prayer? F*ck that. That's not God; that's a middle-school bully, and one that doesn't even have the advantage of being undeniably real.

I always liked the Neoplatonists solution to this. I wish it had caught on at the time through their influence on Christians, but alas no.

They think that God is limited in the materials he has to work with, which explains the limitations of the sensible world and our predilection for doing bad things.

Anyway, if people are naturally bad but capable of being good through an act of will, what's the problem. Presumably there wouldn't be any point to this world if everyone was created such that they could not help but be good. That would remove any moral significance from our decisions.

	25-09-2003 03:17									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I don't (And my denomination doesn't, I beleive) beleive in eternal suffering either

I take it you didn't see "Celine Live in Las Vegas" then?

	25-09-2003 03:22									#149
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quote: I'm not religious, however if i was i would think that God never said anything about Gay people, rather it has been addedd by the authors of variuos religious texts who of course also said slavery was ok and women should be treated like dirt.

Well, then find the citations where Christianity teaches that women ought to be treated like dirt.

Secondly, how would you prove that the texts have been altered?

	25-09-2003 03:31									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, how would you prove that the texts have been altered?

I thought it was an accepted fact that the Old and New Testaments have suffered from alterations - intentionally and unintentionally...