30-09-2003 22:10									#61
	Got spare money?

IIRC, their Horsemen was Elite. Their plan was probably do some damage, and hope (realistically) that the Horsemen would retreat before dying. The survival rate of their Horsemen is therefore much higher than 17%...closer to something like 60-65%. It's still a gamble. Luckily for them, these gambles keep paying off.

I recommend we put our Catapults into our stacks this turn in order to throw off their math.


Dominae

	30-09-2003 22:12									#62
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Well, the odds don't matter if they are replaying the save untill they get the result they want!

	30-09-2003 22:17									#63
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Actually, the chance rises because NM was unfortified. Also, if they used an Elite horse, the chance rises again. I think it's a 34% chance for an elite. Not insane luck, but I find the "tactic" of attacking a whole stack using a lone horse to be very suspicious.

	30-09-2003 22:28									#64
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They had a 1 in 3 chance of winning and a 2 in 3 chance of retreating if they didn't win. With those numbers it was a good gamble to try and pick off an NM before we ended up on less flat terrain...

	30-09-2003 22:33									#65
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I didn't know the horse was elite (actually you can't see that in the screenshot) and I wrongly made the assumption that out NM was fortified. 1 in 3 chance of winning and a 2 in 3 chance of retreating is not that bad, so they might have just gambled a bit. Let's get over it.

	30-09-2003 22:39									#66
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So what's the plan now then?

Group B moves to the bush south of where Elucicum used to be? A goes to the hills north of their horse? Post some plans so I can criticise them

Also in terms of horse v MI we don't know what shape this war will take we can only guess from the what we know now. On this turn if we had numerous horsemen we could hit the horse west of IDG and attacked the units NW of random outpost - 1 settler 1 sword and 2 horse unless I'm mistaken. 2 of our horse would then be left out in the open even if that meant certain death without them leaving anyunits in the open we'd still be doing better overall.

Also the more we attack them the less their good fortune can screw us over.

	30-09-2003 22:52									#67
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Something else to be wary of...if that horseman was an elite (I can't tell from the screenshot and I don't remember from the other day) then GCA might possibly have generated a great leader.

	30-09-2003 23:04									#68
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In chat I proposed the following:

1. AGA moves S.
2. AGB moves S twice.
3. Cataputs split up and join AGA/B in equal numbers.

Check it out, think about it, then criticize that OPD!


Dominae

	30-09-2003 23:40									#69
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hmmmn nice, allows good flexibility, the only thing I'd say is that it gives the horses in and around random outpost to attack and return to the city the same turn. Perhaps if the both groups were S,S of nevermore we could still take to both hills and any attacking horses could only retreat to IDG or NE of outpost, if they retreat to IDG they are cut off with nothing to attack but a NM on a hill, if they go to NE of outpost they'll take an extra turn to heal.

hmmmn, well thats the best I can do.

	30-09-2003 23:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not quite sure I understand this reasoning. Our Horsemen cannot do squat about their Horsemen, unless we plan to leave our Horsemen out in the open, open for counter-attacks. Their own Horsemen will probably not be left our in the open either: as we approach their cities, they can just do hit and run tactics, ending their Horsemen movement inside cities. Dominae

The reasoning is like this:

If we can attack more often than they can, then we can prevent them from having "luck" with the RNG. If we have Horsemen we can attack their stacks more often and possibly eliminate their Hit and Run tactics by eliminating their Horsemen; or at least those that are within our reach. I realize this does not completely eliminate it, but it sure does reduce it.

Their Horsemen are out in the 'open' now; just not for our MI's to get to, but, for instance, we have two Horsemen that can reach and attack their troops this turn. The more we attack and the more they are on defense the less chance that they have of manipulating the RNG in their favor.

	30-09-2003 23:58									#71
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 They certainly have had some extraordinary luck, but let's not assume anything unless it happens again.

The thing is CDG reported this type of "luck" during their war with GCA. So, to me, it is a trend. CDG did fall pretty damn quick to GCA.....

BTW, Trip moved BigFree the Warrior 2 (South) to do some scouting (with my approval) and saw the Horsemen that killed NM. He had no damage whatsoever.

	01-10-2003 00:05									#72
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BigFree: this is a special turn. As we advance on their cities, they will keep their forces inside them. Therefore our Horsemen will have no units to pick off in the open. The only way they would leave units out in the open is if we're far away from one of their cities and they've want to harass us while we're in the middle of nowhere (which begs the question of why we would be there in the first place). Like I said, this is a special case. From now on expect their Horsemen to end their turns inside cities.


Dominae

	01-10-2003 00:05									#73
	4 Barb camps we need to be concerned with Enter the AD-FREE zone

When GCN had gotten the WM from us, there was a little thing that happens, you get to see were ANY Barb camps that are near us are, the same with us getting theirs, we can see Barb Camps close to them.

In that Map that Miccofl had sent us, we can see 4 camps close by:

Camp #1: we know about, it's at 1-1-1-1-1 from Possum.
Camp #2: we had suspected it;s location but we not sure as to where is was. We know know it's 9-8-8-9 from Equilibrium.
Camp #3: we didn't know about, but it's a danger to the workers that are roading to the silks and the coloney that we will be building soon. It's at 4-4-4-1-1-1 from Equilibruim and is on the western most silks.
Camp #4: we also didn't know about this one, but it's at 3-3-3-2 from Big Bend.

Also, from the save, there is 1 Avar Barb next to Hack (4-7 from Nevermore).

Getting them will net us 100 Gold. Also, we don't need too many Barbs running around while we are at war.

E_T

	01-10-2003 00:07									#74
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by BigFree BTW, Trip moved BigFree the Warrior 2 (South) to do some scouting (with my approval) and saw the Horsemen that killed NM. He had no damage whatsoever.

Ah, how did they pillage all those Roads then? There's still a Horseman unaccounted for if they pillaged twice and attacked once.

Where is the Swordsman that was in Rye?


Dominae

	01-10-2003 00:25									#75
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There was one horse in Rye and two horses on the hill near the Dancing Girl.

I was wondering too, where is the sword.

	01-10-2003 00:26									#76
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We have not seen the Elite Horse that killed Nuc Master, but we do see 3 others, but he's nearby. Most likely, he is 9 of Randon Outpost or in IDC, as that is as far as he can get if he had attacked last turn.

We have 2 horses, we need to kill that one on the hill at IDC 4, so that we can see what is behind those hills. We don't need to move our army too far south and find that they are moving to come around and flank us from the back. or even to start attacking our cities.

Send units to the forrest that is 2 of the Rye Rubble and maybe a few others. We need to be certain that nothing is coming up our backside while we move south. This was one of the reasons that we didn't trade them MM.

E_T

	01-10-2003 00:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae BigFree: this is a special turn. As we advance on their cities, they will keep their forces inside them. Therefore our Horsemen will have no units to pick off in the open.

Actaully I think Dom is right here, after this turn there will be no reason for them to leave horses in the open that we could attack with horses.

Their remaining cities in the north are all at distance 3 so they can move all units between them and attack and retreat between cities easily in the same turn.

The only reason they could have for leaving horses out in the open would be to pillage roads which they no longer need to do due to their excessive culture.

Horses would do little untill we pass Agalord and even then it's a journey along mountains to Catchopolis.

look at the map, we need MI and NM not horses.

	01-10-2003 01:43									#78
	Inflate your Upload Space

Please take all discussion directly about the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

	01-10-2003 02:07									#79
	Updated Orders Increase the size of your Attachments

Please note all change in units in AGA and AGB!

Unit Roster

AGA contains: 7 vet MIs (01 through 07), 3 vet NMs (06, 08, 10), 1 elite Warrior (06), 2 regular Warriors (02, 12), 3 Catapults (01 through 03) (16 units).
AGB contains: 7 vet MIs (8, 11, 14, 18 through 21), 2 vet Horsemen (01, 03), 2 vet NMs (10, 12), 1 regular NM (02), 2 Catapults (04, 05) (14 units)
Damaged units healing: M13, 15, 16, 17
War Casualties: M09, M10, N09

1 vet Horseman and 1 Catapult are active units which will be added to AGB later.

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moves 2-2-2 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB.
G02 Expedition remains fortified in case we need to pick the Swordsmen up.

M12 BigFurryInfantry moves 1-2-1; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium (3-3-3-3-6 : six turns).

H02 vonHorseman remains fortified in Mingapulco until healed; it will then rejoin AGB.

N01 MerZenary moves 2; watching out for barbs in the north.
N04 Togas moves 4-4; looking out for barbs as the Workers make their way west.
N05 Enamel moves 2-2; heading for barb camp in the southeast peninsula.
N13 ZargonX moves 1-2-1 to Cuido 8.
N14 Pikesfan moves 1-1-2 into Karina.
N15 OPD moves 1-4-1 to Cuido 8.
N16 Sharpe moves 1-2-2 to Nevermore 8.

War Orders

C01 through 03 added to AGA
AGA moves to Random Outpost 8-7.

AGB moves to Random Outpost 8-8.

S02 Flash pillages the iron road.
S01 Jagjef attacks GCA Sword in Dun na Anarchy.

C06 moves to Nevermore.

M13, 15, 16, 17 all move to/fortify in Nevermore to heal.

All other units to remain as they are.

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

Last edited by Trip on 01-10-2003 at 02:27

	01-10-2003 10:42									#80
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Turn completed! We lost one Vet Horse, GCA lost a reg Spear, 8 gold, a slave from the now razed Dun Na Anarchy and one Vet Horse.


Open save

Esc from negotiations screen (GCA offers peace - we are effectively rejecting).
Accepted all new build orders

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moved 2-2-2 then used FORTIFY ALL trick with WB.
G02 Expedition remained fortified in case we need to pick the Swordsmen up.

M12 BigFurryInfantry moveed 1-2-1; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium

(3-3-3-3-6 : six turns).

H02 vonHorseman remained fortified in Mingapulco until healed; it will then rejoin AGB.

N01 MerZenary moved 2; watching out for barbs in the north.
N04 Togas moved 4-4; looking out for barbs as the Workers make their way west.
N05 Enamel moved 2-2; heading for barb camp in the southeast peninsula - saw barb camp with

2 Conscript Warriors within (barb camp is new this turn) at 2 2 2 1 of Tripoli.
N13 ZargonX moved 1-2-1 to Cuido 8.
N14 Pikesfan moved 1-1-2 into Karina.
N15 OPD moved 1-4-1 to Cuido 8.
N16 Sharpe moved 1-2-2 to Nevermore 8.

War orders

C06 (new Catapult in Cuido) named Basher, moved to Nevermore.
C02 a renamend Smasher
C04 c renamed Trasher
C05 d renamed Simon
C05 e renamed Gate Crasher

W02 BigFree moves 2 discovers Vet Horse 7 7of Outpost and 3 Vet Spears, 1 Vet Horse and a

Settler 7 of Random

S02 Flash pillages the iron road - according to negotiations screen GCA is denied Iron
S01 Jagjef attacks GCA Sword in Dun na Anarchy - wins 1 hp lost and takes Dun Na Anarchy.

We gain 8 gold and city is razed. GCA slave worker moved onto Expedition

H01 Trip's Guard moves 2 2 attacks Horseman 4 of IDG. Loses, GCA Horse loses 2hp.
H02 NuclearHorseman moves 2 2 attacks Horseman 4 of IDG. Wins, 2hp damage. No units seen in IDG, Elite and Vet GCA Swords spotted 9 of Outpost

M16 c moves 9 8 fortifies in Nevermore
M15 b moves 7 into Nevermore

W12 WWNN moves 3 (to lure GCA units into attacking and thus exposing themselves)

AGA (7MIs, 2NMs) moved 2 to 7 8 of Outpost

N10 Kloreep moved 2 6 2 to join AGA
W06 Hagbart moved 2 6 2 to join AGA
M14 Hack moved 6 2 to 2 of Nevermore and fortified
N02 Mao moved 1 2 to join AGA

AGB full health units (6MIs, 2NMs, 5 Cats) moved 2 1 2 to join AGA

C06 Basher moves 2 2 to Nevermore, fortified

W22, 23 and 24 (h, i and j respectively) move 4 to Mingapulco and upgrade to MIs (3x60 gold)
W03 Alva moves 7 4 4 to upgrade soon for barb-hunting

Economy:
Apolyton - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman.
Mingapolco - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman
Bananatopia - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman.
Incensity - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Medieval Inf (turn 2 of 5).
Nevermore - Building Worker (turn 2 of 10).
Tripoli - Building Barracks (3 turns left).
Equilibrium - Building Walls (turn 17 of 20).
Cuildo de Alcohol - Cat Build, start building Settler (turn 1 of 10).
Hispanica - Building Barracks (last turn).
Possumopolis - Building Cat (turn 3 of 5).
Karina - Worker Built, start building Cat (turn 1 of 10).
LuxInvicta - Granary built, start building Settler (turn 1 of 7 schedualled)
Big Bend - Building Worker (4 of 8 schedualled). Change build to Catapult (4 of 12

schedualled)
BigFurryCity - Barracks built, start building Horseman (turn 1 of 3)
Heart of Darkness - Building Cat (turn 3 of 6 shedualled).


WF:
Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-8-12-13-18. Change WF to 3-4-6-12-13-14
Mingapolco - starting WF 4-8-9-10-15. Change WF to 2-8-9-11-15 (working game).
Bananatopia - (grows this turn - requires 28 RAW trade to keep from Civil Disorder) starting

WF 2-4-5-6-8-16-19 (working game). Change WF to 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-17.
Incensity - starting WF 5-6-7-17. NC.
Nevermore - starting WF 8. Change WF to 5.
Tripoli - starting WF 2-7-17-18. Change WF to 7-16-17-18.
Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC
Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 1-19. Change WF to 10-19.
Hispanica - starting WF 1-2-3-4. NC.
Possumopolis - starting WF 7-14. NC.
Karina - (Worker built) starting WF ??12??. Change WF to 11.
LuxInvicta - starting WF 5-6-13. Change WF to 8-9-14.
Big Bend - starting WF 3. Change WF to 1.
BigFurryCity - starting WF 6-7-19-20. (added 2 workers) Change WF to 5-6-7-8-19-20.
Heart of Darkness - starting WF 3-10-11. Change WF to 10-11-13.


Workers:
Referance: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
Dan & Gits - tile cleared, workers frozen. Will road next turn.
Go3 (MrWIA, EVC & Dejon) - Mine Built, Workers Frozen. Will Mine Banana 6 (WF #3) next turn.
Monkee & CalcII - 3 turns left to clear.
Mark & Otto - 5 turns left to clear.
Squid and Horse - 4 turns left to clear.
New Worker from Karina - move 8-8 to Mingapulco 1 (WF #6), will start to clear next turn.
panag & Spink - Mine done, Move panag to BigFurryCity and have him join it. Spink is frozen

this turn. Spink will join Hispanica next turn.
Rush - move to BigFurry City and join it.
Yin, Lib & Slave Farb - Road done, Yin Frozen, Move Farb & Lib 7 to Equil WF #18, those 2

will road and Yin will move towards the silks next turn.
Frodo, Yo and rah go to Cuido 1 and mine, then Yo and rah are MoW next turn

Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 01-10-2003 at 10:52

	01-10-2003 11:09									#81
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Yeah, Jagjef is now called "Jagjef the CityRazer"

	01-10-2003 11:13									#82
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would 'the Destroyer' be to your liking?

	01-10-2003 11:18									#83
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Screenies:

	01-10-2003 11:19									#84
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"the Destroyed" is more aproprieate as long there isn't a place left onboard AS Expedition :-)

	01-10-2003 11:37									#85
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quote: Originally posted by jagjef "the Destroyed" is more aproprieate as long there isn't a place left onboard AS Expedition :-)

I severely doubt we will be leaving the most storied regiment of our forces behind.

	01-10-2003 11:39									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Living that one turn on grass is another story. However, if any can do it, jagjef the swordsman can. I have faith.

	01-10-2003 11:44									#87
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Living that one turn on grass is another story. However, if any can do it, jagjef the swordsman can. I have faith.

I would be absolutely thrilled! I'd tell that slave of GCA's to swim to Apolyton or be eaten by sharks!

	01-10-2003 12:14									#88
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Have fate in the great Banana. If PoA can cross the ocean, why shouldnt Jagjef survive on grassland.

	01-10-2003 20:54									#89
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I had to be absent when the turn was played. Not sure how useful this will be, but here are my comments on how the round went:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moved 2-2-2 then used FORTIFY ALL trick with WB.

I've heard talk that the Fortify All trick is some sort of unethical exploit. When can we and when can we not use this? Is there an official list of moves that are unallowed in this game posted at the UN? We should have no ethical dilemmas doing things that other teams are doing as a matter of course.

quote: N05 Enamel moved 2-2; heading for barb camp in the southeast peninsula - saw barb camp with 2 Conscript Warriors within (barb camp is new this turn) at 2 2 2 1 of Tripoli.

Perhaps Ghengis the Merc. would have been better here: it's a Reg. unit, and can reach the same spot this turn. Enamel the Merc. is needed at the front.

quote: N15 OPD moved 1-4-1 to Cuido 8.

Is this unit named 'OPD' or 'Hungryopd'? Very confusing!

quote: W02 BigFree moves 2 discovers Vet Horse 7 7of Outpost and 3 Vet Spears, 1 Vet Horse and a Settler 7 of Random

We did this move before investigating along the road 111 of Nevermore?

quote: S02 Flash pillages the iron road - according to negotiations screen GCA is denied Iron S01 Jagjef attacks GCA Sword in Dun na Anarchy - wins 1 hp lost and takes Dun Na Anarchy.

I know there was a mess-up here, but in normal circumstances I think we should have attacked first, then decided to pillage.

quote: We gain 8 gold and city is razed. GCA slave worker moved onto Expedition.

Ethically, we should disband all slave Workers.

quote: H01 Trip's Guard moves 2 2 attacks Horseman 4 of IDG. Loses, GCA Horse loses 2hp. H02 NuclearHorseman moves 2 2 attacks Horseman 4 of IDG. Wins, 2hp damage.

Why not attack the Horseman on Grassland (just discovered at Random Outpost 77)? There are better odds of defeating that unit, and upon victory our Horseman would still have enough movement to join the big stack at Random Outpost 87. The only good reason that I can think of is that we wanted information by claiming the Hills at Incredible Dancing Girl 4. But would that information really be worth (now) 2 of our Vet. Horsemen? We know IDG will be abandoned, and if GCA is smart they will be hiding the bulk of their troops along roads outside of viewable distance (or even inside Random Outpost itself). I think we threw away 2 good units here, and now we have to build more.

quote: No units seen in IDG, Elite and Vet GCA Swords spotted 9 of Outpost.

Hm, either that big stack of 10+ Horsemen and 5+ Swordsmen is in Random Outpost, or it simply does not exist at this time.

quote: W12 WWNN moves 3 (to lure GCA units into attacking and thus exposing themselves).

It would be great if this works, but do you really think it will? I mean, woud you attack a harmless lone Warrior with a perfectly good unit when under siege? We could have used Warrior With No Name somewhere else, I think.

quote: AGB full health units (6MIs, 2NMs, 5 Cats) moved 2 1 2 to join AGA.

Nice stack.

---

quote: Cuildo de Alcohol - Cat Build, start building Settler (turn 1 of 10).

The Settler will be completed faster if we let this city grow in 8 turns by working 2-Food tiles first. We'll also get a bit more Commerce this way.

quote: Hispanica - Building Barracks (last turn).

I recommend building a Settler here before starting on military units. This city's contribution to the war effort will be minor. Although we have spent time on building a Barracks, I think a Settler will be more useful here.

quote: Move panag to BigFurryCity and have him join it. Spink is frozen this turn. Spink will join Hispanica next turn. Rush - move to BigFurry City and join it.

Again, I think we're wasting valuable resources on the war effort here. We should be fine in military production without having to join Workers to these cities. There is still a great need for Workers, and we're actually reducing our total number of them. I know plans were made some time ago to make BigFurryCity and Hispanica into military production centers, but I think these should have been revised. Another option here would be to take Bananatopia off military production (however good at that it may be), reduce it below size 6 and revert back to a Settler/Worker pump.

Are we going to attack CFC right after GCA? That's the big question that should affect all our decisions right now. If the answer is "yes", I can understand all the efforts put into more military; if it's "not sure", I think we should concentrate on our economy again.

---

Overall, I'm very impressed. Please do not take all these criticisms to heart.




Dominae

	01-10-2003 22:29									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Overall, I'm very impressed. Please do not take all these criticisms to heart. Dominae

Don't worry, we won't.

Ithink its clear, by looking at the WM that CGN provided us that they are also using the fortify all command with their units and Galleys. I am uncomfortable calling it a "trick". It is not a "trick", IMO. It is simply a possible move in the game.