28-09-2003 05:02									#1
	Turn 122 - 130BC - Turn 2 of the War Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

To be edited only by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Invention (35) 1 scientist.
- 27 gold - +180 +6gpt = 213 if CGN agrees to the Republic and WM trade .
- +25 gpt +31gpt if that CGN deal goes through
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux

Urgent questions & tasks
- Trade agreement written up with CFC. Done?
- Plans for continuing the war - how best to proceed?
- Do we give CFC contact with CGN?
- What should our new unit build proportions be?
- Safe passage for Po in WT's sealanes. Same treaty as with CGN?

Unit Movement & Actions:

Please note all change in units in AGA and AGB!

Unit Roster

AGA contains: 7 vet MIs (01 through 07), 3 vet NMs (06, 08, 10), 1 elite Warrior (06), 2 regular Warriors (02, 12), 3 Catapults (01 through 03) (16 units).
AGB contains: 7 vet MIs (8, 11, 14, 18 through 21), 2 vet Horsemen (01, 03), 2 vet NMs (10, 12), 1 regular NM (02), 2 Catapults (04, 05) (14 units)
Damaged units healing: M13, 15, 16, 17
War Casualties: M09, M10, N09

1 vet Horseman and 1 Catapult are active units which will be added to AGB later.

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moves 2-2-2 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB.
G02 Expedition remains fortified in case we need to pick the Swordsmen up.

M12 BigFurryInfantry moves 1-2-1; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium (3-3-3-3-6 : six turns).

H02 vonHorseman remains fortified in Mingapulco until healed; it will then rejoin AGB.

N01 MerZenary moves 2; watching out for barbs in the north.
N04 Togas moves 4-4; looking out for barbs as the Workers make their way west.
N05 Enamel moves 2-2; heading for barb camp in the southeast peninsula.
N13 ZargonX moves 1-2-1 to Cuido 8.
N14 Pikesfan moves 1-1-2 into Karina.
N15 OPD moves 1-4-1 to Cuido 8.
N16 Sharpe moves 1-2-2 to Nevermore 8.

War Orders

C01 through 03 added to AGA
AGA moves to Random Outpost 8-7.

AGB moves to Random Outpost 8-8.

S02 Flash pillages the iron road.
S01 Jagjef attacks GCA Sword in Dun na Anarchy.

C06 moves to Nevermore.

M13, 15, 16, 17 all move to/fortify in Nevermore to heal.

All other units to remain as they are.

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.


Economy:
Apolyton - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman.
Mingapolco - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman.
Bananatopia - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Horseman.
Incensity - Building Num Merc (turn 2 of 3). Change build to Medevil Inf (turn 2 of 5).
Nevermore - Building Worker (turn 2 of 10).
Tripoli - Building Barracks (3 turns left).
Equilibrium - Building Walls (turn 17 of 20).
Cuildo de Alcohol - Cat Build, start building Settler (turn 1 of 10).
Hispanica - Building Barracks (last turn).
Possumopolis - Building Cat (turn 3 of 5).
Karina - Worker Built, start building Cat (turn 1 of 10).
LuxInvicta - Granary built, start building Settler (turn 1 of 7 schedualled)
Big Bend - Building Worker (4 of 8 schedualled). Change build to Catapult (4 of 12 schedualled)
BigFurryCity - Barracks built, start building Mid Inf (turn 1 of 4)
Heart of Darkness - Building Cat (turn 3 of 6 shedualled).


WF:
Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-8-12-13-18. Change WF to 3-4-6-12-13-14
Mingapolco - starting WF 4-8-9-10-15. Change WF to 2-8-9-11-15 (working game).
Bananatopia - (grows this turn - requires 28 RAW trade to keep from Civil Disorder) starting WF 2-4-5-6-8-16-19 (working game). [color=blue]Change WF to 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-17.[color]
Incensity - starting WF 5-6-7-17. NC.
Nevermore - starting WF 8. Change WF to 7.
Tripoli - starting WF 2-7-17-18. Change WF to 7-16-17-18.
Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC
Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 1-19. Change WF to 10-19.
Hispanica - starting WF 1-2-3-4. NC.
Possumopolis - starting WF 7-14. NC.
Karina - (Worker built) starting WF ??12??. Change WF to 11.
LuxInvicta - starting WF 5-6-13. Change WF to 8-9-14.
Big Bend - starting WF 3. Change WF to 1.
BigFurryCity - starting WF 6-7-19-20. (added 2 workers) Change WF to .
Heart of Darkness - starting WF 3-10-11. Change WF to 10-11-13.


Workers:
Referance: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
Dan & Gits - tile cleared, workers frozen. Will road next turn.
Go3 (MrWIA, EVC & Dejon) - Mine Built, Workers Frozen. Will Mine Banana 6 (WF #3) next turn.
Monkee & CalcII - 3 turns left to clear.
Mark & Otto - 5 turns left to clear.
Squid and Horse - 4 turns left to clear.
New Worker from Karina - move 8-8 to Mingapulco 1 (WF #6), will start to clear next turn.
panag & Spink - Mine done, Move panag to BigFurryCity and have him join it. Spink is frozen this turn. Spink will join Hispanica next turn.
Rush - move to BigFurry City and join it.
Yin, Lib & Slave Farb - Road done, Yin Frozen, Move Farb & Lib 7 to Equil WF #18, those 2 will road and Yin will move towards the silks next turn.

Diplomacy:
GCA: WAR
CFC: NAP expired.

Comment, please, many "plans" are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

Last edited by E_T on 01-10-2003 at 10:12

	28-09-2003 08:07									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The MOW recommends the building of 2 MIs and 2 Horsemen in our Barracks cities, followed by a ratio of 3:1:1, Horses:MI:NM.

If we don't take heavy casualties we should avoid overbuilding our military. We're going to have little use for 30 or 35 MIs after GCA is destroyed.

	28-09-2003 10:06									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think we should continue building MIs until we have a firm grasp on how the war with GCA is going to pan out, then switch to Horsemen exclusively.


Dominae

	28-09-2003 16:26									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I prefer Trip's plan of building more Horses than anything else, but still building other stuff.

FWIW, if need be, we could use some of those excess MIs toward improvements in our FP city... (admittedly slowly, as it'd take 8 MIs disbanded to get one courthouse)

	28-09-2003 21:58									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would just like to point out that Horsemen are far weaker versus human opponents than against the AI. We can expect every GCA unit we fight to benefit heavily from defensive bonuses, from Walls to fortifications to terrain. They may even have some Catapults to back them up. This is especially true under the (reasonable) assumption that GCA will turtle at this point instead of meeting us in the field.

Therefore, any reinforcements that we think we will need should be Med. Infs. We still have ~10 Warriors to upgrade, but I'm not sure if we're going to spend all our Gold on that.

Our Med. Infs. will take down their cities, not our Horsemen. It's great to have a couple of the latter in our stacks just in case, but mostly I think our Horsemen should not see battle until they become Knights or Cavs. There's no point in building units that we will not use right away.


Dominae

	28-09-2003 22:45									#6
	Support Apolyton

As long as Trip doesn't plan using horses extensively in this war, why should we build them now, instead of MIs?

I agree with Dominae. Build mostly MIs now and switch to horses later.

	28-09-2003 23:04									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm going to put in a vote for MI's as well. Horses will be able to get into battle quicker with their 2 movement points, but at the moment, they aren't worth the trouble for their relatively weak offense and defense.

	28-09-2003 23:40									#8
	Support Apolyton

Actually I agree with the concept of more horse. That is one area where we are(very understandably) lacking. We have the power in the field, now it is imperative that we build horse for quick exploitation. The is especially true if we are going to try to get Leo's.
Also remember we have warriors who can be upgraded to MI if we so need. Ideally we could construct a barracks at a forward city and gather them there. This way they can be upgraded on a need to basis and if they need to be upgraded they can wait until Leo's.
Aggie

	28-09-2003 23:48									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius As long as Trip doesn't plan using horses extensively in this war, why should we build them now, instead of MIs? I agree with Dominae. Build mostly MIs now and switch to horses later.

I agree!

	28-09-2003 23:49									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Aggie Actually I agree with the concept of more horse. That is one area where we are(very understandably) lacking. We have the power in the field, now it is imperative that we build horse for quick exploitation.

Quick exploitation of what, and how? The argument is that Horsemen will not do as much against GCA as Med. Inf. will. What is required is a counter-argument stating exactly why Horsemen will be useful against GCA, or at least why we need more Horsemen in general.

The worst-case scenario that I can think of at this point is our only option being a bunch of Horsemen smashing themselves against heavily defended GCA cities. We have Catapults, we have Mercs., now let's build more of our heavy hitters and take some cities.

And, just to make myself look cool, here are some battle odds:

Vet. Horsemen versus fortified Vet. Spearmen behind Walls: Horsemen wins 20% of the time, retreats ~40%.

Vet. Med. Inf. versus same defender: Med. Inf. wins 54% of the time.


Dominae

	29-09-2003 00:01									#11
	Support Apolyton

We've had a couple instances already where more Horsemen would have helped.

If we had not wanted to leave units open as we cleared out the wounded GCA units we could have taken them down with Horsemen instead and kept our MIs fresh for future combat.

They're obviously not good at assaulting entrenched cities but they can be very useful. Even if they lose they don't die about half the time.

Right now the ratio of MIs to Horsemen is 19 (23 if you count the Warriors to be upgraded) to 3. That's a disparaging figure which is going to hit home hard once we get Chivalry.

I don't think anyone who suggests we disband our huge cadre of MIs will get many good looks.

	29-09-2003 00:17									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

* Dominae gives Trip a look.

Who cares about Knights at this point? Are we still planning to be fighting GCA when we get Chivalry? Let's get this over with as quickly and efficiently as possible. We'll build up Horsemen later.

Admittedly we could use a few more Horsemen, but a ratio of 2:2 (to Med. Infs.) seems like too much to me. One city on Horsemen should be plenty. Remember that our Horsemen will not actually be dying a lot, since 1) they can retreat, 2) they will only be attacking injured units. In contrast, we will see frequent Med. Inf. casualties.


Dominae

	29-09-2003 00:30									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

We will soon have seven cities producing military units. It will take all of 5 turns for us to be back up beyond 20 all the way to 30 MIs if that's what we're focusing on building and upgrading. That's not even accounting for our GA.

We're going to be producing units in insane quantities. One city for Horsemen is not enough.

	29-09-2003 00:39									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sorry, I thought your 2:2 ratio reflected our current number of military cities (because 2:2 is usually reduced to 1:1...).

If 7 is the real number, then I suggest putting 2 10-Shield cities on Horsemen, 1 one Mercs. and the rest on Med. Infs.


Dominae

	29-09-2003 00:53									#15
	Support Apolyton

The 2:2 was only for our current four cities. We won't have 7 for another few turns as the Barracks finish in BFC, then Hispanica in the next two turns, then Tripoli in 4 or so.

I've started a new thread about GA production (a related topic).

	29-09-2003 01:07									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let me give you an example of how horsemen would make a difference. If we had more horse, it is very possible that Catcher would now be ours and we could advance quickly. Remember, knights are the dominant unit for the Middle ages and not having enough is usually a fatal error. Horse lead to knights. We have plenty of MI and catapults for our current needs. If we need more MI we simply upgrade warriors. We need horse, case closed. MI are nice right now but further on in the Middle ages I find them of little real value except to counter attack in case of invasion. Obviously we should produce some to replenish our numbers, but they simply shouldn't be the main producion.
Aggie

	29-09-2003 01:25									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Remember, knights are the dominant unit for the Middle ages and not having enough is usually a fatal error.

Knights ??! What knights ?

quote: We need horse, case closed.

Of course, only not now. We must win this war first and worry about horses later. We just don't know how many MIs will die after taking the first wave of cities.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't build horses at all, but a 3:1:1 horses:MIs:NMs ratio, like Trip suggested, is IMHO way too much at this moment. Let's win this war first with MIs and then switch to horses. A 2:2:1 ration looks much better for me.

Anyway, let's move with this discussion in the other thread.

	29-09-2003 01:35									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We can expect 50% losses for our Med. Infs. once we start conquering GCA cities. I would like to know if we currently have enough Med. Infs. in the field to win the war versus GCA with this figure in mind. My guess is we do not.


Dominae

	29-09-2003 01:36									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And also, if we are really serious about upgrading those 10 Warriors, we should be stockpiling Gold instead of rushing Catapults and whatnot.


Dominae

	29-09-2003 02:22									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

First off, because of Domestic Issues, I was unable to attend the part of the chat that delt with the irrigation Issue for Lux, and the subsequent orders for Frodo, Yo and rah. Relesing 1 worker to the MoW is not what is needed, not if he needs a road built in 1 turn's time. He will get 2 workers, but not this very moment.

So that this might be discussed, I'm ordering all 3 of them to Cuido 8 (WF #1) and they will mine that tile. After then (next turn) Yo and rah will go under the MoW's command and Frodo will join Out Of Darkness with his jungle clearings.

MoI E_T

	29-09-2003 02:24									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Dominae And also, if we are really serious about upgrading those 10 Warriors, we should be stockpiling Gold instead of rushing Catapults and whatnot. Dominae

That Cat was rushed for a couple of reasons, partly because we didn't have a GA on that turn (see my chart in that other thread). Further, I want Cuido to start on it's Move, so that wse can try to be ready for a possible GL to build our FP (or to start it from scratch).

MoI E_T

	29-09-2003 02:32									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

AGA contains: 8 vet MIs (1 through 7, 17), 3 vet NMs (6, 8, 9), 1 elite Warrior, 2 regular Warriors (14 units).
AGB contains: 12 vet MIs (11, 13 through 16, 18 through 21), 2 vet Horsemen, 3 vet NMs (10 - 12), 1 regular NM, 6 Catapults (24 units)

1 vet Horseman is an active unit which will be added to AGB later.

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moves 1-1-4 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB.
G02 Expedition moves 6-9-8; will go up the coast scouting and may pick up more units to drop off later.

M12 BigFurryInfantry moves 1-2-1; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium (3-3-3-3-6 : six turns).

H02 vonHorseman remains fortified in Mingapulco until healed; it will then rejoin AGB.

N01 MerZenary moves 2; watching out for barbs in the north.
N04 Togas moves 4-4; looking out for barbs as the Workers make their way west.
N13 ZargonX moves 1-2-1 to Cuido 8.
N14 Pikesfan moves 1-1-2 into Karina.
N15 OPD moves 1-4-1 to Cuido 8.
N16 Sharpe moves 1-2-2 to Nevermore 8.

W07 WhiteBandit disembarks if there is a non-GWT tile to land at (unlikely).

War Orders

A lot depends on what GCA does. Most of the individual orders will have to be given in chat.

Under almost any circumstances AGA will capture Rye/Elucidium. Hopefully they will capture it with few losses, and the rest of AGA can move to Random Outpost 8. AGB then moves to Elucidium. N02 Mao remains where it is and N10 Kloreep moves to Elucidium 6-3.

Flash pillages the iron road and Jagjef fortifies.

All other units to remain as they are.

	29-09-2003 02:56									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Is the horse square going to be pillaged too?

	29-09-2003 02:59									#24
	Tired of ads?

Not this turn, because our closest unit is two tiles away.

By the way, I recommend Jagjef Pillage and Flash Fortify. It's better this way, trust me.




Dominae

	29-09-2003 02:59									#25
	Put an end to popups!

No, that would require moving off of the mountain tile. We can cause much more havoc by just sitting on top of that mountain with two units which have 5 defense... they can't risk having fewer than 3 units to defend the city or else we have a chance of capturing it. No iron + tying down 3 units is good enough. If we move off the mountain then whatever moves will probably be killed.

	29-09-2003 03:12									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We should pillage and withdraw. remember it is the threat of those units landing that forces the distraction of GCA units.

That sword army of theirs will not be too far away. Dead units will not distract anyone.

	29-09-2003 03:22									#27
	Put an end to popups!

re horse vs MI production.

One reason to build a higher proportion of horse... GCA makes extensive use of horsemen. Horse on horse is best in any open field situation. Horse on horse is fine in a city assault (MIs are better, yes).

I think we should seek to maintain our number of MIs (24 to 30 should be the range) and increase our proportion of horse (which are useful now, and much more useful later).

I say 24 to 30 MIs as a number, because we are facing a limited number of GCA units on a relatively narrow front. As we progress, the need for MI's will lessen if GCA leaves cities defended. Their unit count will dwindle while ours increases. We will be building some MIs now, so we can see if GCA fights for each city in turn or not before we see if there is any reason to go beyond 30 MI's.

We do need to upgrade those 4 vet warriors ASAP. They could be the difference in sustaining the attack and they are costing us 4gpt just sitting there.

	29-09-2003 05:28									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

GCA has the save!

The GCA takes a first timeout of our own this time. We will have to play our turn at a later date.

Lucky

	29-09-2003 06:23									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Can everyone now try to keep this particular discussion out of the turnthread and in the new thread I am about to create for it? The turnthread CAN be used for discussion, but to me this issue has beceome strong enough for its own thread. Besides, it might be difficult at times to find the orders and results when we play the turn if there is lots of discussion in here. I would have split the thread if it weren't for the fact the MoW orders occurr after most of the discussion so far.

	29-09-2003 09:52									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by MJW GCA has the save! The GCA takes a first timeout of our own this time. We will have to play our turn at a later date. Lucky

I knew we wouldn’t get the save back quickly Oh well, it’s not like I don’t have a stack of books by my bed to while away the time