29-11-2003 16:42									#91
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As long as we don't have any infiltration, it's imperative that we include 2 probe teams (at least) in our initial assault!

We don't know what kind of probe force Peace could have amassed, and it would be very painfull to lose our conquered base (and our units) just by mind control

	29-11-2003 20:25									#92
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If we include 2 probe defences (probe teams will not be ready on time) in our initial attack force, should we switch the current production of Impact Marines in Apolyton Prime to a 4~-1-2 amphibious impact rover, so we can send two rovers instead of one rover and an infantry unit in the first wave?

To everyone reading this post: what is your opinion regarding the Laser Cruiser question I posed in the turn report thread?

	29-11-2003 20:48									#93
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Why Rovers? Thats additional expense above a Marine and they lack the Base attack Bonus. Most of PEACE's base are water bases that are atmost adjasent to small islands. I dont see the advantage of a Marine Rover attack over a Marine Infantry attack. Perhaps I don't know something here that I should.

	30-11-2003 03:30									#94
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The advantage of rovers is that they can attack twice. Though indeed one has to weigh that against the infantry +25% advantage.

	30-11-2003 16:21									#95
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We won't be facing Plasma Steel, so the bonus will not be necessary, surely? That said, one of each gives us some leeway just in case. A rover and an Infantry is my vote.

I still think the Laser Cruiser should head home now, and prepare for the front.

	30-11-2003 16:24									#96
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See the turn report for the possible options for the cruiser i think we have.

	01-12-2003 01:09									#97
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We should agree on a definate turn by witch Alexandria should fall and link all of our production to that time table.

Asuming we hurry the Transport a Bit and that it imediatly picks up troops that are waiting near Bolean Bay it can be hitting Alexandria in 4-5 turns. We will need to do a bit of Hurrying to get everything worked out correctly ofcorse.

Also their is potential for the Scout Patrol at Binary Bastion to be upgraded to an Impact Marine as this now only costs 60 Credits. This would give us as second marine identical too the one next too Boolean.

I belive we should start on a second wave of Impact cruisers most likly from Pi Square and Zetaris, these could be completed in 3-4 turns and start attacking Peace Bases other then Alexandria. This could realy cause Havoc with Peace as it will result in a Pincer movment and prevent them from consentrating their forces.

I was also considering the posibility of using Plasma Gun Boats to defend our Cruisers, the cruisers are unarmored and are thus vulnorable to Peace counter attacks, if a Heavely armored ship was in the square defending would this protect the Cruiser? I am not a military expert especialy in Navel Warfare so I am not shure if this is a good strategy or if anysuch ships would be worth building.

I will start coming up with a more detailed plan focusing on taking Alexandria in 5 or hopefully 4 turns. I am getting anctious too attack, Peace could aquire new tecnology at any point, speed is of the essense.

P.S. when we make our declaration of War we need to include at the end

"ALL YOUR BASES WILL BELONG TO US, YOUR TECNOLOGICAL AND FINANTIAL DISTINCTIVENSS WILL BE ADDED TO OUR OWN, RESITENCE IS OFCORSE FUTILE"

	01-12-2003 09:27									#98
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EUREAKA!!!

I have located EVERY peace base, by examinging the earier work done by Drouge and comparing the relative base spacing with the base locations I have found I was able to determine the cordinates of each Pirate base. Here goes

Casablanca (55,75)
Sea Lurk (54,56)
Alexandria (59,73)
Margaritaville (57,63)
Tripoli (53,69)
Calaco Island (55,43)
Pampalon (46,58)
Liar Liar (45,67)
Atlantis (42,52)
Henry Morgans Boot (40,66)
Little Accident (36,70)

All of Drogues base grid Match ups were correct (or else this would not have worked) but unfortuanly non of the wave match ups were. If you refere back to the last map Drouge made you can get a sense of ware things are. The Boot/Accident/Liar fragment is just to the west of Tripoli, Tripoli and Liar's base grids are infact touching. Margaritaville is just north of Tripoli (as was noted it was probly their second Base because of its large pop) Its also the Base Closest to Pi Square and we should direct our Navy their to simultaniously attack their when we hit Alexandria. Sea Lurk is a bit North and west of that. West of Lurk and North of Liar Liar is Pampalon with Atlantis nearby. Most distant off all is Calico Island which is probably the source of the Rover we found, its just a few squares west of that Rover. Peace is likly expanding onto that medium sized island though they havent done so yet.

I think the best plan of attack is too send our First Impact cruiser (Manic sugjests we name our units so I will give this one the name of "Alpha Pi Cruiser") and the Transport holding Marines, Rovers and Probes too Alexandria. At the same time Our Laser Cruiser, hense forth refered to as the Love Boat along with a second Cruiser to be Built in Pi Squared (Beta Pi Cruiser) and folowed closely by the Cruiser being built in Zetaris all converge on Margaritaville idealy taking it on the same turn as Alexandria. The Alexandria force (Souther Amphibious task Force SATF) then hits Casablanca or attacks Tripoli if we feel its vulnorable enough. If Tripoli is well defended then the Northern Fleet moves down to Assist. Once Tripoli is taken we reorganize and move on too Liar Liar and or Sea Lurk probably in 2 seperate groups.

	01-12-2003 15:50									#99
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Putting together screenshots of the earlier map and with Impaler's positions, I have come up with the following COMPLETE map of PEACE. It isn't pretty, but you should be able to get most of what is needed off of it.

Keep in mind this took me some hours on a Monday night, and I have not checked everything. Please advise of any errors in placement I have made, and I will correct them and reupload.

As it is I may find time this week to redo it with an essentially intact black tiled background. I can't do that right now as I can't get to SMAX - my disc is downstairs where my flatmate is with a girl he doesn't like much but who likes him. Thus I am in no way in hell going to interrupt.

	01-12-2003 15:54									#100
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Please see my post for a revised map of the theatre including Impaler's positions.

Please note that this map has not yet been tested for accuracy in base placements. I would appreciate it if everyone would at least check quickly to see I have figured out the tile system correctly.


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...199#post2522986

	01-12-2003 16:03									#101
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Peace is correctly proportioned, it perfectly matches the map I drew (on paper) except that Cycon Land needs to be moved down one cell.

	01-12-2003 23:56									#102
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Correction made.

	02-12-2003 17:02									#103
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Awesome

	02-12-2003 23:02									#104
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I just realized that our Transport wont hold all the units we want it too hold. It has a Capacity of 4 so the marines, Plasma Garrison and Rover will leave room for only 1 probe Team. It was sugjested eariler that we should bring 2 but this dosent seem possible now.

With the New map we have the importance of imediate infiltration is slightly reduced. If our initial attacks dont infiltrate we can always do so with a Probe Foil that I sugjested we build in Portal, or we could bring a second transport with a second Probe in it.

	05-12-2003 04:58									#105
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Quickly responding on a few things. Hopefully I can elaborate later.

quote: Also their is potential for the Scout Patrol at Binary Bastion to be upgraded to an Impact Marine as this now only costs 60 Credits.

We would have to build a replacement garrison then no?

quote: I just realized that our Transport wont hold all the units we want it too hold. It has a Capacity of 4 so the marines, Plasma Garrison and Rover will leave room for only 1 probe Team.

How about including the plasma garrison in the second reinforcement transport trip to Alexandria?

	05-12-2003 11:39									#106
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I though we should asume imediate counter attacks sent from Tripoli and Casablanca, thus we need defenders to be in the initial attack and for them to ocupy the City. if we sent no Plasma Garrison would the Transport then become the default defender because its the only armored unit? Or we could upgread a Cruiser to have armor thus using it as the defender, thats rather expensive though and I would rather use the guys we already have.

We just need more inteligence from the Hive!!

	05-12-2003 18:40									#107
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Margaritaville is 5 moves from Tripoli. If we had a Cruiser in the way (blcoking the narrow seaway immediately W) no reinforcements could arrive immediately after the attack.

Alexandria, however, is only 3 moves from Casablanca, yet what could they have stationed in Casablanca that could worry us? They still only have Lasers as their best weapons.

	07-12-2003 22:27									#108
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Exactly. They aren't expecting it (looking at Hive info) and so will not be prepared for a counter attack. We should have enough time to rush a defender easily. I think if we keep pushing forward, with out attacks, they will be trying to defend and cut of our attacks so much they won't have time to try to counter attack. If we keep momentum, and get defenders in their soon, we shouldn't need to consolidate and defend for quite some time

	08-12-2003 21:43									#109
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Manic noted that we might not want to hurry the Node Runner (impact cruiser) in Zetaris this turn as we would be dipping too deeply into our reserves.

I agree Manic, lets wait a turn after which it would be much much cheaper say around ~16 credits range. As it will take node runner a minimum of 3 turns to attack Margaritaville, hurried this turn it attacks in 51, hurried next turn 52 as was it was to do in the Pre-Info plan.

So this gives us an Accelerated Southern attack Force hitting on 50 and a Northern Force hitting on 52. Idealy Peace will respond to our initial attacks by rushbuilding something in Margaritaville or rushing the defenders south, either way we take the base with Cruisers on 52 and destroy what they have built before it can move very far. So we dont need to rush build very heavily in Pi Square, likly just a few credits. This along with stolen Energy should keep us well stocked with Credits and PEACE too low to attempt a mind Control or steal (though we will guard against that none the less, they might sell facilities for Credits and get enough to do anything)

Also we should consider building a Transport in Pi, likly an unarmored one. And use the Apolyton Marines in a northern amphibious assault.

Our Southern Force will Consist sof the Transport (whats is the transports name?) loaded with units and 2 ships the Love Boat and Alpha Pi.

Idealy on 50 the Transport will come adjacent to Alexandria's from the East and the Impact Cruiser will come Adjacent from the North. The Cruiser will kill 1 garrison, likly a scout patrol. The Rover can then kill additional units likly 2 probe teams as it was said the rover can attack twice (though I assume it now cant move into the city after that). Now the City should be defenceless and our 2 Probe Teams Infiltrate and perhaps also steal some Energy too. Now we move the transport or Love Boat into the city and Capture it, taking Ethical Calculus and taking Democracy if energy credits permit. Now we unload the Marines in the City and move the transport north to join the Alpha Pi Cruiser this will enshure that these 2 cant be probed and the Alpha Pi has a defensive unit to help it. Meanwial the Love Boat Proceeds to Casablanca and kills what ever Garrison Unit is their (again a scout patrol), this likly triggers a Drone Riot preventing much of any defence from consolidating.

Next turn (51) No Peace Reinforcments can possibly reach out force or harm it when Peace takes its turn unless perhaps a random Gun ship is near by, this is highly unlikly though. The amphbious invasion force loads back up in the transpot leaving Alexandria empty (will need to make everyone a Doctor probly). Then it proceedes up to Tripoli and destroyes anything in its way as it goes. Marines and Rover attack and destroy the Probe Foil and Party Pooper that is likly their along with the scout Patrol and what ever they managed to rush. Love Boat takes Casablanca and can just reach Tripoli to assist in the attack or make the capture.

Next turn (52) Force splits up, Marines may stay for Garrison Duty depends. Depending on Defences present Cruisers attack Margaritaville assisting new Cruisers Node Runner and Beta Pi that are attacking too. Other Forces move to Liars Lair which is the last major PEACE manufacturing center. Meanwial second wave ocupation troops on new transports start filling into concoured Bases. After this it should be all mop up.

I noticed Manic realy wants to upgrade the love Boat to a 4-3 at a cost of 90 Credits. I would advaise against that for the time being as its extreamly expensive. Later it might prove worthwial but I think for now Crusers will be used for destroying defenceless Probe Foils that we catch in transit or for capturing bases after the Impact troops have cleaned them out. I would favor building more navel units rather then upgrading a single one so heavily. Also note its risky if PEACE steals the Love Boat.

	08-12-2003 21:47									#110
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@Impaler: You probably know, but i just wanted to mention for sure: there's an order called 'designate defender' (CTRL-D i think). Then the unit designated will automatically be the first to defend and you don't have to worry about transports fighting off attacks

IMHO Drogue has got it absolutely right. The Hive intelligence report we received showed absolutely no sign of units to mount a counter-attack. The only thing we have to watch out for are probes (party boats ). As already suggested, garrisons can be easily rushed or ferried over by the 2nd transport trip...

	08-12-2003 22:28									#111
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oh by the way, by comparing the 41 and 48 Military screens and what PEACE was building in 41 I estimate that their 12 land units consist of nothing but Scout Patrols and 1 or 2 scout rovers. They have not even Pro-typed Lasers yet or build any cruisers from what it seems.

Also I think both of the Party Pooper probe teams were built in Tripoli, they may still be their. Garrison info will help reveal this, another posibility is that 1 of them was sent to Alexandria and their using them defencivly with the Foils as offence. If we see the Poopers are in bases then I suspect their defencive and we dont need to worry about offensive probing untill the Foils are finished.

Note though that time to complete may be shorter then they apear as I see PEACE has low energy reserves but high income so their spending credits someware and lots of them, it may be in unit hurrying.

	09-12-2003 03:49									#112
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Or it may be base facility hurrying because of drones/infrastructure. Even if it was unit hurrying, it has little money. While it has high income, with a low starting point, it's not enough to rush a prototype for a while, which is what they'll need to be able to defend against our onslaught.

Last edited by Drogue on 09-12-2003 at 04:14

	09-12-2003 16:43									#113
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In summary what do we got here:

2 offensive boats

1 transport with marines and probe teams

I say we need more boats, 1 or 2 just in vase they DO have em stacked up in some secret pirate island. They might be hurrying up boats just to play time.

	09-12-2003 19:28									#114
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Yes off course we need more ships, 2 vessels can hardly be called a task force :/
But we need to strike asap, which means in 3-4 turns like planned. Any time we wait to finish additional ships will make the chance of Peace discovering about our plans and preparing defences (probes especially) that much bigger

But you're right, the next priority to build definetly are some extra Impact cruisers...

	09-12-2003 20:42									#115
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Well we have 2 Cruisers under Construction in Pi Square and Zetaris. They will attack Margaritaville in 2152. That gives us 4 navel units total and we might build 1 or 2 more depending on what we find after infiltrating PEACE. We will also probly build a second Transport to move a second wave of units towards PEACE as they start to consolidate a defence.

	10-12-2003 04:54									#116
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I agree that rushing new ships should be the priority beyond upgrading the old. The Laser Cruiser can always be used as a shirt-term garrison, to stack with other chips, explore or take out Gunboats/Transports. If we invest more in it we have more to lose. Plus if we steal energy from PEACE we can upgrade later.

Without looking too closely the plan looks great. The bonus potentially being that, with the north force attacking later, PEACE may spend EC straight away to rush reinforcements in from the North, leaving them perhaps unprepared for the Northern attack. If they leave the Margaritaville area they are lost, sooner or later.

	10-12-2003 16:28									#117
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Yea, a two-frontal assault is always great (if you're not on the receivind end )

	10-12-2003 17:36									#118
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Remeber Navel units will heal fast as both we and PEACE have navel yards (peace is actualy building theirs I think) so if our ships are damaged resting them in base for a turn is an option, PEACE cant realy chase after them effectivly to kill them.

I am not shure if this works but can we scrap a facility that was actualy built if we have the Secret Project that gives it free, or would we get the "you cant scrap that" message. I am hopefull that all PEACE navel yards can be scraped for energy but we will ofcorse retain the "ghost" yard that is unscrappable.

	11-12-2003 16:50									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Node Runner, lets wait a turn

Ok.

quote: We should consider building a Transport in Pi, likly an unarmored one. And use the Apolyton Marines in a northern amphibious assault.

Won't we already build a transport in Aurora?

quote: The Cruiser will kill 1 garrison, likly a scout patrol.

Shouldn't we attack with our land units first? I'd prefer to use ships as little as possible to attack bases, as unlike land units they face a 100% defence bonus because of PEACE naval yards, and because I'd like them to end their turn into bases as much as possible, so they are relatively safe fom counterattack.
Personally, if there is only weak garrison, I'd propose to attack with the rover, so we can hopefully use its second move to take the base, and so the rover auto-repairs upon taking the base.
If there is more than one garrison, I'd propose to attack with the impact marines first.

quote: The Rover can then kill additional units likly 2 probe teams as it was said the rover can attack twice (though I assume it now cant move into the city after that).

IIRC all unarmoured probe units are automatically killed as well when the last regular defence unit dies.

quote: Now the City should be defenceless and our 2 Probe Teams Infiltrate and perhaps also steal some Energy too.

I agree we should infiltrate, but IMHO we should save the second probe unit for probe defence.

quote: Now we move the transport or Love Boat into the city and Capture it, taking Ethical Calculus and taking Democracy if energy credits permit.

quote: Meanwial the Love Boat Proceeds to Casablanca and kills what ever Garrison Unit is their (again a scout patrol), this likly triggers a Drone Riot preventing much of any defence from consolidating.

Casablanca is a land base, so unfortunately CCS Love Boat can't attack it.

quote: Next turn (51) No Peace Reinforcments can possibly reach out force or harm it when Peace takes its turn unless perhaps a random Gun ship is near by, this is highly unlikly though. The amphbious invasion force loads back up in the transpot leaving Alexandria empty (will need to make everyone a Doctor probly).

Why do you think that no ships are near? Unless we know the exact location of all PEACE ships and transports, IMHO I find it rather risky to leave Alexandria just empty like that.

quote: Then it proceedes up to Tripoli and destroyes anything in its way as it goes. Marines and Rover attack and destroy the Probe Foil and Party Pooper that is likly their along with the scout Patrol and what ever they managed to rush. Love Boat takes Casablanca and can just reach Tripoli to assist in the attack or make the capture.

quote: I noticed Manic realy wants to upgrade the love Boat to a 4-3 at a cost of 90 Credits. I would advaise against that for the time being as its extreamly expensive. Later it might prove worthwial but I think for now Crusers will be used for destroying defenceless Probe Foils that we catch in transit or for capturing bases after the Impact troops have cleaned them out. I would favor building more navel units rather then upgrading a single one so heavily. Also note its risky if PEACE steals the Love Boat.

Ok I agree.

	11-12-2003 19:43									#120
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As you can See Manic I am no Military Expert. I sugjest that when your playing turn 50 that we use the full 48 hours and thorouly examine the PEACE infiltration info we get. Then only after additional planning would we complete the turn, capture base, rush reinforcments ect ect. Hopefully we will know adsactly what is needed after we infiltrate Alexandria (and dont forget to peak at the University and Hive too). A very step by step procedure should be follwed when these critical military Turns are Played. By the way, this war needs a name "Operation Keel-haul" sounds good to me.