26-10-2003 18:42									#271
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Saints 32 -d- Leicester 15 Just in case Havak was hoping it might go unnoticed.

As a born-and-bred Northamptonian I'd like to be the first to go

Maybe we'll finally be able to emulate our Europe win and win the Premiership. Franklin's Garden's needs some new silverware

quote: Originally posted by finbar Final score: England 35 Samoa 22 Mmmm. Almost Havak's weekend from hell. Samoa achieved the same thing South Africa did, by different means. For two weeks in a row now, England, not allowed to settle, have looked more ragged than they should. I'm sure the coaches of certain other teams have learned heaps from England's efforts.

England did play badly, I won't deny that, but I took a lot of hope from the end of the match, with some far more fluid play. And all credit to the Samoans, who played wonderfully and really deserved an extra point for the close match. I honestly think the Boks should be worrying a little.

Sadly, this highlights, if we needed to be convinced, how reliant we are on Wilko. If he get's his form back, we should go all the way. If not, then I think we'll lose in the final, whether it's NZ, Oz or the Boks we end up playing. I can't see France getting beyond the semis. They have talent, but even with the mindset, not enough to beat England, NZ or Oz, IMHO. I'd love to see them play the Boks though, although I think they would still lose.

	26-10-2003 19:47									#272
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Is there a shouty-my-blood-is-boiling smilie Finbar?

Well there was one for the neutrals. And doubly make my day with a gloating Saints fan why not? A well deserved win for Saints it pains me to say - nice non-English half back pairing they have bought.

NZ must be quaking in their boots – at the prospect of facing Samoa at least. The Samoans could and maybe should have won that – perhaps only fitness telling in the end? They have earned my huge respect for the sheer effort and ambition with which they played today.

Clive on the other hand has one week to teach that team the basics of rugby all over again if we are to stand any chance against a ‘bigger’ side. So many negatives there isn’t time to list them all – but I guess the fact the handling and retention was awful worries me most – god help us if we spill ball right left and centre like that against NZ. Wilko looks very out of sorts and someone needs to take him aside and build his confidence. The same person needs to kick the teams arses and tell them to stop forcing the game. Slow it down, build phases – don’t try to be expansive too quickly when you are chasing the game.

And for ***** sake leave the half back channels to the ******* half backs will you?

Johnson was reportedly on the roof back in the changing rooms – but then he gave silly penalties himself away after failing to adjust to Mr Kaplan – who was his usual inconsistent self policing only one team at the breakdown - and then giving us a penalty try without any warnings to Samoa (technically he was right but he warned both sides constantly about other infringements – strange bloke).

Not our finest hour – but we are still in the hunt – and we can’t play that badly again. Can we? please??

	27-10-2003 04:03									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Johnson was reportedly on the roof back in the changing rooms – but then he gave silly penalties himself away after failing to adjust to Mr Kaplan – who was his usual inconsistent self policing only one team at the breakdown -

Bullsh*t. Adjust to what? A ref who penalises use of the hands in a ruck? It's the most basic of rules and J**** - and Neil Back, et al - just kept doing it, obviously trying to slow down the Samoan ball. I thought they were lucky to avoid a card. J**** didn't cover himself in glory at all in the match, I have to say. At no time did he seem to be marshalling his troops as I've seen him do before. He looked as shellshocked - and powerless to respond - as the rest of the team.

quote: and then giving us a penalty try without any warnings to Samoa (technically he was right but he warned both sides constantly about other infringements – strange bloke).

I think, that close to the line, the penalty try had to be awarded, warning or not. If Kaplan hadn't awarded it, you would have been screaming blue murder.

quote: Not our finest hour – but we are still in the hunt – and we can’t play that badly again. Can we? please??

England, to me, looks like a team struggling with the burden - the pressures - of favouritism. They looked nervous and unsettled last night, even more than they did against the Boks. Frankly, I think a loss to the Boks might have done them a lot of good - as a wake-up call, and to get the favouritism monkey off their backs. I don't think it suits them. (That a loss last week could have meant a SF against the All Blacks is irrelevant. If they're to meet the All Blacks in the tournament, they still have to beat them, whenever it is)

A couple of other things. A couple of incidents in Ireland -v- Argentina that seem to have gone unnoticed by the judiciary. Keith Wood, on the ground, punched an Argentina player. Minor stuff. But the Argentinian loosehead's reponse was less than pleasant. He patently obviously had a go at Keith's eyes with his fingers.

And I finally worked out where Mr disappeared to on the weekend. He slipped down to Carcasonne to watch the L***** Test between Australia and France!

	27-10-2003 06:46									#274
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I should probably drop this, given that I had to go back 2 pages but I can't resist ...

quote: Originally posted by Havak Oh. It’s been a while since you visited the UK hasn’t it? We have a huge (legal) immigrant population – and an even larger illegal one. Bless Tamerlins country – they used to put all the strays they didn’t one in a big camp near the channel tunnel that had no guards on it and a two foot fence with inbuilt ladders. They only closed it when we started threatening to forcibly export bitter to France.

Quite right. You may have a larger immigrant population than I had thought.
So, exactly how many of them want to play rugby for England? If there aren't any or only very few then its pretty much a moot point.

That's a rather heavy-handed way to deal with the French isn't it? Germany was rather benevolent by comparison.

quote: Qualifying purely on residency is already at three years I believe? It will never be reduced – expect to see it rise. Much as I might be a lone voice here the issue isn’t as clear cut as the consistent SH position here might make it look.

I thought it was only two? Anyway ...
Personally though I think its rather straightforward.
Citizenship + residency requirements?
You really just have to eliminate those fast-track citizenship-for-playing exploits, and, AFAIK that isn't a problem for your "North-Aucklanders".

quote: Now looking at this a different way the UK has had a long standing free movement and reciprocal working and social security arrangement with Ireland – they come and go as they please - maybe we should simply start picking Keith Wood and Brian O’Driscoll for England?

Not nearly the same thing. That sounds like the same agreement between NZ and Australia and you don't see cross-matching between the two do you?
Aus/NZ basically see the other as rivals whereas the Pacific Islands are more like a little brother.

quote: And we are in the EC where restraint of trade is illegal – any citizen can work freely in another member state and come and go as they please - so we’ll just offer the big French names more money and get them in England shirts. Then we could field our Barbarians side against the southern ones and everyone would be happy?

I imagine that such a move would evoke the ire of some of the other EC members. Well, unless you went after a certain previously-mentioned Frenchman, whose presence in the French team seems to invoke more than its share of 's from a certain someone nearby, in which case the 's might be turned upside down.
Quite frankly though I doubt you'd get too many takers.

quote: One more reason Finbar should consider moving to the UK briefly – once in here it would make it so much easier for him to move to his beloved Italy.

Cut off his nose to spite his face?

quote: I’ve already dismissed your impossibly hypothetical argument. Now could we have a detailed defence of the different nationality brothers please?

I would have gone into it but quite frankly I can't understand your point of contention ...
You yourself have argued that parental citizenship rights should leave players eligible to play for England.
Why on earth shouldn't brothers choose to play for different teams, provided that they meet citizenship/residency requirements?
Its just utterly absurd to have one bound by the choices of another. Returning to my not-so 'impossibly' ( ) hypothetical arguement (objection overruled! ) you would undoubtably object strenuously to one of your 'English born-and-bred' players being ruled out because of a sibling representing another country, wouldn't you?
And you'd be quite right about it too I might add.

	27-10-2003 09:34									#275
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Hey ravagon. Give it away. He eats that stuff for breakfast with a pork pie chaser. I'd suggest you just compliment him on England's performance - as a minnow - in winning against the powerhouse of world rugby, Samoa.

	27-10-2003 09:49									#276
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By the way Havak, I forgot to send my congratulations on scraping through against Samoa.
If England can continue to overcome their limitations in this fashion they'll be able to compete on the same field as the SH 'big boys' in a few years time.

	27-10-2003 10:30									#277
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That's my boy. When taking aim, always better to err on the low side. Oh, and feel free to toss in the odd mention of Leicester. If you haven't heard of them, they're a once powerful English rugby club now living on memories and the scent of trophy polish.

	27-10-2003 14:16									#278
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Oh I’m not getting into that Finbar. Evil, evil England with hands in the ruck? Naughty boys. How unusual for a top side to do that?

Jonno looked shell shocked alright – partly because he could not believe the way Kaplan was refereeing – and frankly who can blame him! Yeah okay – mainly because he literally did seem taken aback by the Samoan onslaught. Very unusual for him – and it worries me more than Jonny having an off day to be honest with you.

quote: If Kaplan hadn't awarded it, you would have been screaming blue murder.

I was screaming blue murder throughout the match – for different reasons.

quote: I think a loss to the Boks might have done them a lot of good - as a wake-up call, and to get the favouritism monkey off their backs

I am really hoping this game serves that same purpose. I want to see them play the next two games with some real structure – and with evident patience to build the game rather than trying to force the pace all the time.

It really scares me that the only hint of structure yesterday came when Mike Catt stepped onto the field. Wilko is not shining on the world stage right now.

And now of course we are in trouble because Clive sent Luger on without permission and we had 16 players on the field for 30 seconds. This is schoolboy stuff and deeply disappointing. Sadly I fear the IRB, hardly known for being pro English, may make an example of us and deduct points?

Regardless – on form so far we are so obviously no longer favourites. I thought France looked really strong against Scotland, and of course NZ and Aussie are now looking strong. The only saving grace is that this form needs to be converted into a win against us by one of them.

Regardless I have to support Wales and Ireland next weekend really – more in hope that expectation!

quote: He patently obviously had a go at Keith's eyes with his fingers.

Silly stuff from Woods – his country needs him next weekend and this could so easily have ruined that. And as for fingers in eyes – players doing that should be banned permanently IMO.

quote: So, exactly how many of them want to play rugby for England?

You probably know we have a large Bok, Kiwi and Aussie population in the big cities. Indeed half our bars might have to close without them available to work in them. And most of the lads want to play rugger for England – but we have to turn them down as not good enough to wear the white.
The more serious answer to your point is that ethnic minority participation in the sport is growing. There is a large number of England qualifying players of this description in the top flight now – it will not be long before they start to figure in the national side – and about time too.

quote: That's a rather heavy-handed way to deal with the French isn't it?

It’s a love-hate thing. We both love their wine – we both hate each other.

quote: AFAIK that isn't a problem for your "North-Aucklanders".

Yes – Kilted Kiwi’s (Laney and the Leslie’s) and Aussie Irishmen et al – I agree. But what is the story behind the brothers, one of which plays for Samoa and the other for NZ. This one hums a little suspiciously?

By the way Cockbain is a damn aggressive player isn’t he – lucky to stay on the field Saturday I thought? You would never know he was born an Aussie.

quote: you don't see cross-matching between the two do you?

*cough* Devine? *cough*

It is exactly the same thing you were arguing for in actual fact – free movement and residency across borders at will. How does it differ to the NZ approach to their little brothers (welcome as long as they can carry a ball)? Our residential inter-mixing with the Irish goes much further back than NZ with the Islands to boot.

quote: Aus/NZ basically see the other as rivals whereas the Pacific Islands are more like a little brother.

Oh so you want to cherry pick your relationships with other sovereign nations then? The one that you can’t generally pick from (because they are both fiercely nationalistic and can offer decent money?) is a ‘rival’. The ones you want to take all the talent and who cannot afford to stop you are ‘little brothers’. I wonder how former ABs like Michael Jones feel about such a patronising view of their nations?

quote: Quite frankly though I doubt you'd get too many takers.

I think you’ld be amazed actually. I have no doubt some Frenchmen would take the white – and no doubt some Englishmen would choose the bleu. I know for a fact some French players would love the Lions to be extended to include France too. You see when we Brits field a multinational Barbarian side we are at leats honest enough to put it in the name of the team!!

And did anyone answer the point about NZ being stripped out the AB branding? If they tried to take England out of English rugby there would be a riot!

quote: Why on earth shouldn't brothers choose to play for different teams, provided that they meet citizenship/residency requirements?

No reason at all – except of course no one has explained to me how these brothers cross qualify yet!!!

quote: you would undoubtably object strenuously to one of your 'English born-and-bred' players being ruled out because of a sibling representing another country, wouldn't you?

I would object to his sibling playing for someone else if he were English in actual fact. If the sibling were actually born in the country he represents (and it differs to his brother) then no problem. It wouldn’t affect my English born player though – because he is English born still. It’s very straight forward. Your point is solid – but you seem to totally misunderstand where I was coming from.

And I get to this point having thoroughly enjoyed myself and what do I find:

quote: If England can continue to overcome their limitations in this fashion they'll be able to compete on the same field as the SH 'big boys' in a few years time.

and:

quote: If you haven't heard of them, they're a once powerful English rugby club now living on memories and the scent of trophy polish.

My respect to you gentlemen – not many people can make me laugh out loud at my desk – and you managed this double whammy.

	27-10-2003 14:19									#279
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Samoa were really good! Game of the world cup so far.

Glad we won in the end but Samoa deserved it. Let's hope they can play like that against South Africa now and get into the quarter finals.

	27-10-2003 14:25									#280
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Half time score:

USA 20
Japan 10

The Americans started like a cyclone - for Havak's benefit, cyclone is a synonym for Samoa - and had 14 points on the board in no time. The Japanese are obviously feeling the effects of a tough series of matches and aren't the electrifying bunch they were. Still, they're hanging in there. Give 'em a sniff and they can still score tries.

	27-10-2003 14:25									#281
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I cannot see them matching that intensity again - but should they somehow manage to they can certainly trouble the Boks and, dare I suggest, NZ would not have it all their own way either.

That kind of in your face forward confrontation could stop NZ playing their natural game.

*edit* I think I see a Samoan pattern emerging in this thread?

	27-10-2003 14:30									#282
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I'd almost rather we'd lost, just to add a single interesting result to the world cup... Nah, maybe not! So far it's been a very dull and predictable world cup. Roll on the 1/4 finals!

	27-10-2003 16:25									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I cannot see them matching that intensity again - but should they somehow manage to they can certainly trouble the Boks and, dare I suggest, NZ would not have it all their own way either.

All credit to Samoa they definitely played out of their skins and put pressure on the poms throughout. Woodward can’t be too happy as I’m sure he didn’t want Wilko on the park for to long in case of injuries and exposing his weakness when receiving poor ball. In the last to games he has looked less than ordinary with ball in hand. Aside from that the poms were pretty pathetic, poor organisation and inability to secure good ball for the backs.

It looks like the US of …….. A were to strong for the Japanese, they’ve certainly earned my respect this world cup.

I’ve been watching the games on ITV (UK) and have to say the standard of commentary has been absolute s***. The commentators bring no excitement to the game and seem to miss what’s going on, appalling. My highlight of the weekend was Keith “Keat” Woods being described as a flying potato!!!

How do you guys manage to post all those replies over the weekend? Does nobody else go to the pub to watch the games and suffer from blurry screenness when trying to read the replies? dizzy:

	27-10-2003 16:37									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj All credit to Samoa they definitely played out of their skins and put pressure on the poms throughout. Woodward can’t be too happy as I’m sure he didn’t want Wilko on the park for to long in case of injuries and exposing his weakness when receiving poor ball. In the last to games he has looked less than ordinary with ball in hand. Aside from that the poms were pretty pathetic, poor organisation and inability to secure good ball for the backs.

Totally agree. We seem to have totally lost most of our creativity. I think that was one of Wilko's worst games for England in recent times. Even his kicking was poor. Hopefully that was his bad game and he'll have it out of his system now. I think we improved a lot in the forward areas when Thompson and Vickery came on though.

I'm kind of glad that England have had some tough games (which they've won in the end). At least they're used to playing hard. Be interesting to see what happens to some of the teams who've had really easy groups when they come up against a real team.

Samoa are my new second favourite team. Not only did they play out of their skins but they did everything with great dignity on and off the pitch. That's the kind of performance we need more of, it's an absolute disgrace that their international future is in doubt. And that some of their players aren't at the world cup. And I thought it was terrible that Woodward wouldn't comment on that in the press conference.

Which reminds me. Martin Johnson's response when asked "did you play down to their level" by some idiot journalist "don't patronise them, they were brilliant and could have beaten us." Well said.

quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj I’ve been watching the games on ITV (UK) and have to say the standard of commentary has been absolute s***. The commentators bring no excitement to the game and seem to miss what’s going on, appalling.

Agree again.

	27-10-2003 17:02									#285
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quote: Aside from that the poms were pretty pathetic, poor organisation and inability to secure good ball for the backs.

True enough. However next weekend will be interesting – playing like that Samoa are perfectly capable of beating South Africa.

As poor as Wilko has been I’d still pick him over Koen. Would you?

Yes ITV coverage is crap – always has been. And Flying Potato is a genuine nickname for Woods – apparently he looks like Mr Potato Head.

quote: "don't patronise them, they were brilliant and could have beaten us." Well said.

Much as it annoys certain other posters I have always tried to make sure people here understand that Martin is both extremely intelligent and a very ‘sporting’ gentleman with it. This is classic Jonno.

	27-10-2003 17:13									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Much as it annoys certain other posters I have always tried to make sure people here understand that Martin is both extremely intelligent and a very ‘sporting’ gentleman with it. This is classic Jonno.

He certainly wasn't blessed with looks.

	27-10-2003 17:15									#287
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Final score:

USA 39 -d- Japan 26

The Americans just too big and strong when it counted.

	27-10-2003 17:30									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Oh I’m not getting into that Finbar. Evil, evil England with hands in the ruck? Naughty boys. How unusual for a top side to do that?

Yes, lots of people do it. But why keep doing it? And complain about the penalties? That wasn't going to stop Samoa.

quote: And now of course we are in trouble because Clive sent Luger on without permission and we had 16 players on the field for 30 seconds. This is schoolboy stuff and deeply disappointing. Sadly I fear the IRB, hardly known for being pro English, may make an example of us and deduct points?

On top of your centre forgetting to ground the ball in goal against the Boks. Mmmmmm. Anyway, the consensus here is that it depends on who stuffed up. There is a sideline official who controls who enters and leaves the field.

quote: By the way Cockbain is a damn aggressive player isn’t he – lucky to stay on the field Saturday I thought? You would never know he was born an Aussie.

No, sorry. He's a far North Queenslander.

quote: And I get to this point having thoroughly enjoyed myself and what do I find:

I have taken ravagon in hand and educated him in the finer points of debating.

On a completely unrelated matter, I noticed the Scotland players up to something during the playing of their anthem on the weekend. As the camera travelled past each of them, a lot of them visibly twitched for the camera. A tribute, apparently, to their suspended flanker who suffers a fairly obvious and uncontrollable twitch. I suppose that constitutes focusing on the job ahead.

Edit. Forget to mention the crowds that have been rolling up to the matches. Quite astonishing. 19,000 at Gosford - NSW Central Coast - for the USA -v- Japan match tonight. 30,000 in Adelaide each day on the weekend for Wallabies -v- Namibia and Argentina -v- Ireland. And Adelaide is an AFL hotbed, there's virtually no rugby played there. And, of course, there's the 80,000 who regularly turn up at the Olympic Stadium in Sydney. The regional areas who hosted the various minnows really adopted them.

	27-10-2003 17:48									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj He certainly wasn't blessed with looks.

Mmmm. I wonder was he born that ugly or is rugby to blame?

	27-10-2003 18:03									#290
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quote: He certainly wasn't blessed with looks.

I suspect he may not go into modelling when his playing days are over that’s for sure.

Just trawl the web for piccies of Jonno as a young player – or even as late as the 97 Lions – and you’ll see rugby has taken it’s toll on his features all right. Same holds true for Neil Back who used to be considered as handsome.

quote: But why keep doing it? And complain about the penalties? That wasn't going to stop Samoa.

Damned if I know – there was too much talk back to the referee from several of our players.

quote: There is a sideline official who controls who enters and leaves the field.

It is alleged that the English staff did not consult him as Luger was sent on – which if true is suicidally daft.

quote: No, sorry. He's a far North Queenslander.

A Cairns boy? I recall some nice bars in that town.

quote: I suppose that constitutes focusing on the job ahead.

It was a nice gesture – but as you say they should have been thinking more about the XV hulking great Frenchmen waiting to mow them down.

quote: The regional areas who hosted the various minnows really adopted them.

If there is one thing Aussies are good at surely it’s putting on a sports event? I bet tickets have been readily available and reasonably priced? Had it been here tickets would have cost a fortune and most would have been reserved for affiliated agencies to the RFU.

And Aussies of course are very sporting to underdogs - as long as Australia are not playing them that is.

	27-10-2003 21:27									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy I still remember the times when Leicester had letters on their backs I think I was five then... never was big into English rugby

I have seen Leicester playing against the Stade Toulousain at home (the stadium was then called Stade des Sept Deniers) a few years ago and the players still had a letter on the back. I think that they have changed to numbers 3 or 4 years ago only.

As far as I am concerned I think this is a shame they have changed to numbers as they have thrown away a century old tradition to satisfy those that are striving to standardize everything.

	27-10-2003 21:34									#292
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quote: Originally posted by finbar And I finally worked out where Mr disappeared to on the weekend. He slipped down to Carcasonne to watch the L***** Test between Australia and France!

I was in Ariège in Saint Giron where one of the conditions was to let us look at the Rugby games without any restraint.

	27-10-2003 21:40									#293
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon That's a rather heavy-handed way to deal with the French isn't it? Germany was rather benevolent by comparison.

Beware Ravagon, England and France are traditional ennemies since many centuries but we are likely to unite together to face someone that is trying to interfere with our beloved quarrels.

	27-10-2003 22:03									#294
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A result from France:

Montauban Tarn-et-Garonne 15 - Stade Toulousain 18



I thought before this game that the Stade Toulousain without its international players was like a ripe fruit ready to be plucked by any team in the French championship.

It was the third and last game without the internationals and I must say I am rather relieved the Stade Toulousain managed to win two games out of three even if the quality of the game played was fairly low.

	28-10-2003 03:22									#295
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My brother (who is living in London at the moment) got to meet Sean Fitzpatrick at the museum he works at. Fitzy was there with two of his daughters and ask my bro a few questions about the exhibits. Apparently Fitzy is on the RWC panel in England.

	28-10-2003 03:59									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Damned if I know – there was too much talk back to the referee from several of our players.

J**** is in fudge mode:

quote: For Johnson, the area to work on is obvious, with the team's penalty count higher than usual. The second-rower suggested his side was struggling with the World Cup referees' interpretation of the breakdown. "I'd like to know [why our penalty counts are higher]. We'll have to look at that as we seem to be doing things that we do regularly in the northern hemisphere that are fine and suddenly we're getting penalised for it," Johnson said. "If we need to change things, we need to change things because the refs are always right as you know and we've got to play to the way they interpret the law."

So J**** regularly uses his hands in the ruck in the NH and isn't penalised for it? Mmmm. They were penalised for interfering in the ruck last time they were here. Mr Coke was even carded for it. You're a very slow learner, J****.

quote: It is alleged that the English staff did not consult him as Luger was sent on – which if true is suicidally daft.

It has emerged that the official told Luger to wait for the next break in play before going on, but the England bench sent him on regardless because Tindall was down and being treated and the Samoans were on the attack. Luger went on and tackled a Samoan player before the official drew the ref's attention to what had happened. Regardless, the consensus here is that it will probably only result in a reprimand. The Samoans don't want the matter taken any further.

quote: A Cairns boy? I recall some nice bars in that town.

Innisfail. Just south of Cairns. I thought it was the tropical heat that destroyed their brain cells. Maybe it's the booze.

quote: If there is one thing Aussies are good at surely it’s putting on a sports event? I bet tickets have been readily available and reasonably priced?

Yes, tickets to the lesser matches were very reasonably priced, to the extent that the games have been family outings. Wonderful, good humoured atmosphere, apparently.

quote: And Aussies of course are very sporting to underdogs -

That's also a key. The Japanese, the Georgians, the Namibians, et al, have had tremendous support.

	28-10-2003 10:05									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You probably know we have a large Bok, Kiwi and Aussie population in the big cities. Indeed half our bars might have to close without them available to work in them. And most of the lads want to play rugger for England – but we have to turn them down as not good enough to wear the white.

Bok, Kiwi and Aussie immigrants want to play for England?
Sounds like you've take a poll with all of the participants consisting of inebriated Southern hemisphere backpackers in lieu of immigrants ...

* Cut to Havak wandering backwards and forwards between all of the local bars with a sheaf of questionairres, enthusiastically interrogating all of the local backpackers about their rugby dreams, before retiring to a backroom and changing all of the respondees 'preferred country' answers to "England", cackling inanely all the while *

quote: The more serious answer to your point is that ethnic minority participation in the sport is growing. There is a large number of England qualifying players of this description in the top flight now – it will not be long before they start to figure in the national side – and about time too.

I'm glad to hear it. Provided of course that those who weren't 'English born-and-bred' aren't excluded because of it.

quote: Yes – Kilted Kiwi’s (Laney and the Leslie’s) and Aussie Irishmen et al – I agree. But what is the story behind the brothers, one of which plays for Samoa and the other for NZ. This one hums a little suspiciously?

I won't pretend to know all of the specifics behind any of the 'cases' you cited, this included, but excluding one simply because a sibling plays for somebody else is utter codswallop IMHO.
You yourself opened the door to this sort of arguement when you specified an English parent as being a valid raison d'etre in the English team.
It did, of course, occur to you that having a single English parent meant also having a non-English parent?
ie: A valid claim to playing for another country?
Ergo if one chooses to play for England, the other might well not?
[ Note: Certain English pundits have a tendency to interpret this latter choice as the player in question 'not being good enough to wear the white' ].

quote: *cough* Devine? *cough*

Well you've got me there. If this trend continues then, accounting for exchanges both ways, an exponential rate of increase and the relative population sizes then NZ rugby will be half made up of Australians in ... lets see ... erm, carry the 1, ... 824.32 years.
Something must be done to stem the tide!

Okay now you can wipe all the sarcasm off your screen.

quote: It is exactly the same thing you were arguing for in actual fact – free movement and residency across borders at will. How does it differ to the NZ approach to their little brothers (welcome as long as they can carry a ball)? Our residential inter-mixing with the Irish goes much further back than NZ with the Islands to boot.

See above. My whole point is that it basically doesn't occur.

quote: Oh so you want to cherry pick your relationships with other sovereign nations then? The one that you can’t generally pick from (because they are both fiercely nationalistic and can offer decent money?) is a ‘rival’. The ones you want to take all the talent and who cannot afford to stop you are ‘little brothers’. I wonder how former ABs like Michael Jones feel about such a patronising view of their nations?

Not even close. If you start assuming that Islanders aren't Nationalistic or rather fiercely independent then you'll come a cropper sooner or later. They are.
The difference is that there are large Island communities in NZ. Mayhaps those Islanders playing for NZ are playing for them when they play for the AB's?
Many of their players who do participate in the NZ domestic league don't join the AB's.
(I'm guessing here that some of those were offered and refused, er, I mean they 'weren't good enough to wear the black'? ).
That's their perogative. As long as they don't break the rules in doing so I have no objection whatsoever.

[Edit: Oh and I would ask MJ about it except that the 'patronizing' question is invalid and that, well, I'd have to get his e-mail address from my brother (they were friends) who's off somewhere else at the moment. ]

quote: I would object to his sibling playing for someone else if he were English in actual fact. If the sibling were actually born in the country he represents (and it differs to his brother) then no problem. It wouldn’t affect my English born player though – because he is English born still. It’s very straight forward. Your point is solid – but you seem to totally misunderstand where I was coming from.

Back to the same point above. Dual citizenship via parentage. You find it acceptable as a case to play for England ergo you have to accept some going the 'other way'. [And stop looking so shocked. ]
If Wilco had a French parent he, or his hypothetical phantom brother are fully able to play for les Bleus if they wish (and if they qualify as 'good enough to wear the bleus' )

* ravagon makes another blatantly obvious effort to pull Tamerlin into the fray *

	28-10-2003 10:13									#298
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Congrats to the USA on their first ever win (although they've apparently only played ten matches in something like sixteen years). That was their world cup goal and they've made it.

	28-10-2003 11:13									#299
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*sighs*

ravagon, you're wasting your time. Alastair Campbell learned his trade at Havak's bung knee. He's a master of the sidestep. Verbal, I hasten to add. The closest he came to sidesteps in his rugby days was being poured down them after the side bar closed. He's sh*tting himself about England. You got him a ripper last time. Go him again. Hit low, hit hard, hit often. And if you need motivation - picture how unbearable he's going to be if they get their act together and win the bloody thing!



Oops!

*wets his own pants at the very thought*

	28-10-2003 11:15									#300
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Congrats to the USA on their first ever win (although they've apparently only played ten matches in something like sixteen years). That was their world cup goal and they've made it.

With at least one Bok and an Australian in the lineup. Though, to be fair, the Australian was born there, grew up and learned his rugby here, and represented Australia at Schools and U21 level.

Edit. Actually, I think it was the Americans' second World Cup win. They also beat Japan back in 1987.