21-10-2003 19:25									#91
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I couldn't agree more with you about the ABs' effort. And what they have to do in the future. Whether any other team in the tourney can apply the same sustained, brutal, physical pressure the Boks can is an entirely different matter, IMHO.

Tana Umaga is now expected back in time for the finals matches. Given that he will have had very little physical work, is this not a very big ask?

	21-10-2003 19:27									#92
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You are right. We should go home. I mean how could we ever hope to beat the ABs now eh? After all it's not like the Boks threw everything they had at us and still lost handsomely now is it?

Of course we possibly won't need to - if they play like that against the ABs we will see what your front five is like under such pressure and if Carlos can play at all off the back foot. England could still meet the Boks again in the final you know.

	21-10-2003 20:00									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You are right. We should go home. I mean how could we ever hope to beat the ABs now eh? After all it's not like the Boks threw everything they had at us and still lost handsomely now is it?

I've just wiped off my screen. It was dripping with your sarcasm.

I think the scoreline of the England SA game didn’t reflect how close that game really was. SA were very unlucky not to be awarded a penalty try when their maul was illegally brought down just before the line, and SA missed too many penalties (once again England demonstrate the value of Wilko’s kicking).

quote: Of course we possibly won't need to - if they play like that against the ABs we will see what your front five is like under such pressure and if Carlos can play at all off the back foot. England could still meet the Boks again in the final you know.

The last time the SA forwards played with that intensity it was against us in the Tri-Nations, and we still dominated. Sure it slowed us down, but at least we were able to score some decent tries.

Whether our pack can play that intensely against yours is the question.

	21-10-2003 20:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Tana Umaga is now expected back in time for the finals matches. Given that he will have had very little physical work, is this not a very big ask?

It will be a massive ask. I’m not sure it will be a wise thing to do myself. Mitch has put Leon in at Center, presumably so that he has him as an option should Tana not perform, or if he decides it’s just too risky to play Tana in the final in the first place. We would also have sufficient cover not only for Mils at fullback, but also for the other centres - Carter & Mauger, in case either of them get injured. If they do, Leon just slots in at 13. Also, Mitch has Leon kicking against Tonga because Carlos obviously can't - injured or otherwise - and also if there is an injury to Carter.

Now, should Tana make it back in time for the semi, and look good, then we have a problem…

I thought Leon gave a pretty good account of himself in the past two games. He was aggressive, hit the line at pace, and showed some fancy footwork. I expect no different from him on Friday, and I’m sure it will be a real physical game, which he likes.

	21-10-2003 20:51									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog It was also apparent that England has not improved its back play to a level where they could match the All Blacks for attacking confidence and ability, particularly out wide.

If the AB players share your state of mind I think you are all on for a cruel disillusion.

quote: Originally posted by the son of the 60s Edit Piaf!

Unfortunately, the French music is far from being my favorite genre, I would even say that to a few exceptions (like Bobby Lapointe or Maurice Chevalier) the French singers (and especially the current ones) irritate my ears. As far as my parents are concerned, they have never listened at any music consistently, music has never been one of their hobbies, even a minor one.

	21-10-2003 21:13									#96
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I don't think there can be too much dispute in the fact England have a superior tight five than the All-Blacks who in turn have a far more elusive backline. Its going to come down to the side that can get their loose forwards over the ball quicker and I think that'll be the All-Blacks, I may even select Richie McCaw in the Springbok side

Mike Tindall was quoted on the ITV website today stating the English loosies were to slow to the ball and allowed the boks to get over the ball and slow it down legally (forcing england to concede penalties).

With the speed of the AB back line and their ability to break lines you can be pretty sure their loosies will always be going forward and over that ball first ensuring quick ball.

	21-10-2003 21:35									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Havak ...nor is he as good as Galthie when the petit maestro is on song.

True, the problem is Fabien Galthié is somehow the central piece on which the French game is based, like Wilkinson can be for England, the only problem is that Galthié's performances are less regular than Wilkinson's ones.

MickeyJ, though England performance against the Boks was not as bad as the SH newspapers would like it to be it was not a very good one neither. Judging the English forwards and their speed on this game would be a mistake I hope the SH nations will make, especially the AB.

Judging the French team on one of its performances since the World Cup started is a mistake any team can afford to make as no one can be sure about what they will be able to do during a game.

	22-10-2003 03:52									#98
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Ummmmmm.........

Don't think the English performance was that bad.
Agree that if SA had a bit more in attack they can dominate the NZ forwards and then win.
Don't think they will.
Have no clue which French team will turn up at a ruck, let alone a game.
Think that Aus-v-Ire will be a hard game but that the greater Aus pace will win it, unless it rains, or we can disrupt them at set pieces.
I would still have a Eng/NZ win as the most likely.
I still think that we will have a GREAT chance of beating France in the QF and have been praying, hourly,that Wilkinson gets mangled and lets us see Grayson.
Please God.
A semi against England with Wilkinson injured and all the pressure on them.
THAT would be sexier than a bathfull of Asia Argento.

	22-10-2003 04:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog It will be a massive ask. I’m not sure it will be a wise thing to do myself.

Of course it might all be a sandbag. They've lost nothing by keeping Umaga here and not replacing him because they have ample replacements within the squad, all of them presumably better than anyone waiting back in NZ. Sending him home would be a psychological blow to the outfit. Think about it - he might have been doing upper body gym work, but his injury would have prevented running or any leg work at all. By the QFs, if he's back in full training in the week before, he will have lost 3 weeks of serious conditioning. Besides, they can't squeeze Umaga, Carter and Mauger into the same team, and Carter is now, obviously, the designated goal kicker. I sense a sandbag.

	22-10-2003 04:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Unfortunately, the French music is far from being my favorite genre, I would even say that to a few exceptions (like Bobby Lapointe or Maurice Chevalier) the French singers (and especially the current ones) irritate my ears. As far as my parents are concerned, they have never listened at any music consistently, music has never been one of their hobbies, even a minor one.

Listen to some Edith Piaf.

	22-10-2003 05:21									#101
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Listen to some Edith Piaf.

I can't stand it... Milord.

	22-10-2003 05:40									#102
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I never have.
Is it any good?
Please show me where or recommend an album and I'll give it a spin.
I usually like motown or american indie, but have some weird likes and dislikes.

	22-10-2003 05:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I can't stand it... Milord.

Un fléau des boutons de fièvre on you!

Should fièvre be plural in this case? To agree with boutons? I like to be relatively accurate with my bile!

	22-10-2003 06:14									#104
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quote: Originally posted by flipside I never have. Is it any good? Please show me where or recommend an album and I'll give it a spin. I usually like motown or american indie, but have some weird likes and dislikes.

Edith Piaf was a glorious French singer of the late 1940s and 1950s with a stunning, haunting voice. She died relatively young in 1963. That Tamerlin can't stand her, certifies her as as one of the greats!

Everyone should listen to her at least once in their life. Scroll down this page and you'll find a list of samples. Including "Milord", which Tamerlin so rudely bagged!

	22-10-2003 06:28									#105
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Should fièvre be plural in this case?

Figure it out by yourself!

	22-10-2003 06:30									#106
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Should fièvre be plural in this case?

No!



I am too kind.

	22-10-2003 06:58									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Figure it out by yourself!

	22-10-2003 07:00									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No!

Phew! So it's a bit like the English - one Gin and Tonic, two Gins and Tonic; one Governor General, two Governors General.

quote: I am too kind.

You've got to admit it was creative bile, though!

	22-10-2003 08:08									#109
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quote: Originally posted by finbar You've got to admit...

Never!

	22-10-2003 09:02									#110
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You were out of luck again last night in the FoxSports replays of vintage rugby Tests. It was France -v- Wallabies in Sydney in 1986 at the Sydney Cricket Ground. You lost 14-27! Serge Blanco scored a couple of tries.

They'd better not show the 1987 Test between us when you won 30-24!

	22-10-2003 13:14									#111
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quote: I've just wiped off my screen. It was dripping with your sarcasm.

It was rather ladled on wasn’t it?

quote: I think the scoreline of the England SA game didn’t reflect how close that game really was

Within a couple of penalties for them I think it probably did to be honest. They were never going to score a try from open play. Perhaps they should have got that penalty try – it wouldn’t have saved them as Keon could not hit a barn door but it might have made them feel better.

Kieran was very naughty – but some blame goes on the Aussie ref too – I mean who could have got that one wrong? A collapsed maul gets up, oppo scrum half is buried underneath – hmm, tough one!

Wilko = four penalties, one conversion and two drop goals. Hell yes the lad is an asset to us. Compared to his opposite number last week he is priceless. And he still didn’t have a good game outside the kicking – watch out when he does.

The drop goals are the point of interest – you just know that Carlos would have spun it wide and had the fast boys buried by the Bok defence – Wilko obeyed orders and kept the scoreboard ticking – absolutely the right option against a team chasing the game. The team then gets criticised for lacking ambition and not going for the tries – moral of the story being England can never ‘win’ with the SH even when they ‘beat’ them?

quote: Whether our pack can play that intensely against yours is the question.

And is the question that is intriguing us all I suspect. I have to say I don’t agree that you dominated them up front in that home game – you held them certainly, and took some good opportunities when they were offered – but dominate means something rather different to me at least.

quote: Its going to come down to the side that can get their loose forwards over the ball quicker and I think that'll be the All-Blacks

Please don’t quote bath players at us. Even though he was correct on this one occasion. As Tamerlin says though we didn’t play that well Saturday – and still ground the win out. But then as a UNIT I suspect the Bok loosies can hold their own with the ABs too.

So for flankers we have McCaw and Thorne. Versus two from Back, Moody and Hill. There’s no gap there in the AB favour that I can see. I rate McCaw very highly but as a UNIT I would take Magne/Betsen over the AB combination too. Don’t expect McCaw to have that all his own way at all - sorry I meant “at all his own way”.

On this one I’m with Zinzan who picks Hill then Moody for his choice of blindside.

I still believe on his day Betsen is the best in that position – but the days are getting scarcer.

	22-10-2003 14:04									#112
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I thought Neil Back looked his age against the Boks for the first time since I've been watching him.

	22-10-2003 14:13									#113
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quote: I thought Neil Back looked his age against the Boks for the first time since I've been watching him.

I'd have to gree with finbar on that and i don't think Moody is in the same class as McCaw, Smith or Waugh. Hey but that's just my opinion.

I reckon the Irish are looking pretty confident and could scrape a draw on the 1st . Its definitly the biggest game left in these preliminary rounds.

	22-10-2003 14:18									#114
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Can you imagine the vitriol that would be poured on England if we lost by 19 points and said that actually the team who beat us were no good and it showed them up.

And the Aussies call us whinging.

	22-10-2003 14:38									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj I don't think there can be too much dispute in the fact England have a superior tight five than the All-Blacks who in turn have a far more elusive backline. Its going to come down to the side that can get their loose forwards over the ball quicker and I think that'll be the All-Blacks

Absolutely. I’ve written before on how our pack will dominate the English pack in some areas but not others, and the loose play was the area I mentioned. And even Tamerlin agreed with that!

I agree that the England tight five are superior but lets not forget (and Havak probably doesn't want to hear this) that this English pack is the best in the world largely due to Mitchell's initial handiwork.

I have a lot of faith in Mitchell. I think he's the best coach we've had for a long time. If anyone knows how to beat England, he does, having spent all that time with them as assistant coach. He’s chosen our pack to suit our game plan, and it’s a plan that I am seriously starting to think will win the cup, so long as we stop coughing up the ruddy pill!

	22-10-2003 14:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog but lets not forget (and Havak probably doesn't want to hear this) that this English pack is the best in the world largely due to Mitchell's initial handiwork.

Mmmmm. Sneaky rip to the body, that one.

Actually, I'm watching a replay of the 2nd Lions -v- Wallabies Test from last time. Joe Roff has just scored his intercept try. Care to put some of your hard-earned on the Lions, Havak?

They're following this match with a replay of the 3rd Test. I wonder whether Justin and J**** will be watching it in their respective TV rooms.

	22-10-2003 15:01									#117
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Can you imagine the vitriol that would be poured on England if we lost by 19 points and said that actually the team who beat us were no good and it showed them up. And the Aussies call us whinging.

	22-10-2003 15:12									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The drop goals are the point of interest – you just know that Carlos would have spun it wide and had the fast boys buried by the Bok defence – Wilko obeyed orders and kept the scoreboard ticking – absolutely the right option against a team chasing the game. The team then gets criticised for lacking ambition and not going for the tries – moral of the story being England can never ‘win’ with the SH even when they ‘beat’ them?

Yes Carlos would have spun it wide, but whether the fast boys would be buried by the Bok defence we don't know. Certainly the (potential) quaterfinal will answer that!

I don't think there has been any questioning of the drop goal tactics, most agree it was the right option. But these tactics were employed toward the later stages of the second half after a lucky try resulting from a chargedown. Before that the only team that came close to scoring a try was the Boks.

	22-10-2003 15:24									#119
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I didn't see the game at all (I was out of the country), but the scoreline says we kicked their arses and the only team that scored a try was us.

Everything else is meaningless whinging.

	22-10-2003 15:27									#120
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quote: I thought Neil Back looked his age against the Boks for the first time since I've been watching him.

Possibly. The tournament is his swan song after all.

quote: I'd have to gree with finbar on that and i don't think Moody is in the same class as McCaw, Smith or Waugh. Hey but that's just my opinion.

Indeed it is. On current form he is definitely as good as McCaw and better than both Aussies. That’s my opinion.

quote: Absolutely. I’ve written before on how our pack will dominate the English pack in some areas but not others, and the loose play was the area I mentioned. And even Tamerlin agreed with that!

Did he really – I think you mis-read him. The AB pack will dominate us in the loose? Errant nonsense!

quote: (and Havak probably doesn't want to hear this) that this English pack is the best in the world largely due to Mitchell's initial handiwork.

He did some very good work for us that’s for sure – but his replacement has built on that and taken them to where they are now. A guy called Andy Robinson – it will mena nothing to you but any Englishman worth his salt will recognise the credentials of the man..
Mitchell is a good lad. He has made a great job with the material to hand down there. No doubt like all AB coaches he will get stabbed in the back at some point – and when he does I hope he heads back here.

quote: Care to put some of your hard-earned on the Lions, Havak?

AH Roff’s interception that changed the game – Jonny’s worst hour in any shirt bar Falcons colours?
Care to explain how Grey stayed on the field after that “tackle” on Hill by the way. Or how Owen stayed on the field at all (he was like a killer robot on overdrive). Darned blind SH refs!


Jonno has never had anything negative to say about either Justin or the Australians with regards to the Lions trip. Other players on the tour have at various points done both – and complained about the more arrogant members of the Aussie squad (take a bow Mr Burke). But that’s all been very well documented and there’s no point in opening it back up.

No my target of choice at the moment is the ABs and their fans utter confidence in them despite the fact they haven’t played anyone who can offer them a challenge as yet. Come on you Boks?