22-10-2003 19:16									#151
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH That's rich coming from an Aussie.

Funnily enough, offside doesn't occur in the Wallaby vocab.

	22-10-2003 19:18									#152
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Exactly!

	22-10-2003 19:21									#153
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Obviously I only raised the matter after it occurred to me that you were far too gracious to do so. It was only my fear of raining on Havak's and MikeH's parades that prevented me from mentioning the collapsed maul and early tackle. After all, no England sporting team has won a World Cup of any sort since 1966 and these two lads should be left to delude themselves for just a wee bit longer. Edit. Oops! Sorry, forgot about Stinger. Make that "these three lads".

Thanks for the mention

I'm not certain we will win by any means, I just find the Aussie bleating highly amusing.

	22-10-2003 19:24									#154
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It's the Bok who's bleating. The Wallaby is only lending, um, immoral support.

	22-10-2003 19:26									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Exactly!

And if you asked one of our resident grenouilles - the one with the penchant for s - he would say "contested scrum" and "maul" don't exist in the Wallaby vocab either.

	22-10-2003 19:31									#156
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A maul... that's where you keep charging men in from the side until you can spin it to the try line isn't it?

	22-10-2003 19:40									#157
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quote: Good to see Abott given a game

Looks quite promising. Bit Green still.

quote: George Smith and Phil Waugh

Writers! For and read or.

You must admit surely that Smithy has had a trying season after his injury – and Waughy is a great lad but not the worlds greatest analyser of the game perhaps?

quote: I'd forgotten that the Lions had lost 5 of their lineouts, 3 of them to the Plank!

Wish I had forgotten it – Woodsy had an awful game in that respect.

quote: what's happened to the fullback Perry? And the winger James?

Matt Perry has been very unlucky – he has done nothing wrong but has simply fallen out of favour. He is an old fashioned fullback – solid defensively and with a good boot but lacking pace – Robinson’s defection from the other code sounded the death knell for his England career as Woodward now prefers ‘attacking’ fullbacks – he’ll slot Robinson, Lewsey or Balshaw in there by choice now.

In fact Balshaw makes his England return this weekend himself – on the wing with Robinson at fullback.
James – never good enough to wear a Lions shirt - I don’t think he even figures in the Welsh squad anymore.

quote: How did that big Lions' centre stay on the field after his ridiculously late shoulder charge on Larkham?

It was Henderson wasn’t it (12)? Not sure how he stayed on actually. On the plus side he made a similar hit on Austin in April that certainly kept the mouth away from Australia in the final cut. So not all bad then.

quote: You mean the try that came about as a result of an England player being in an offside position?

Some pundits have hinted at it. I think it misses the fact that Koen received slow ball on his shinbones – and that Moody is both an excellent reader of the game and very very quick. Koen had stepped back into the pocket, Lewis had seen it and just made the charge down. I’ll watch it again this evening and see if the ‘hint’ has any substance.

quote: I have held back in mentioning that instance and the collapsed maul and the early tackle on our outside centre.

I mentioned the collapsed maul for you.
As for early challenges = watch the game again looking at the green shirts.

World Champions? We are the gallant triers and losers old boy. Surely only nations that offer little economically or culturally to the world have to define themselves totally through success in sport?

Ultimately it's up to one of the SH teams in this tournament to actually beat England rather than talk about how they will/should have/could have isn't it?

*Edit* There's a familiar name involved with Samoa I see - one Michael Jones, native born Samoan. Strange that as I clearly remember him scoring a try for New Zealand against England way back in 91 I think it was.

	22-10-2003 21:38									#158
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quote: Originally posted by finbar And if you asked one of our resident grenouilles - the one with the penchant for s - he would say "contested scrum" and "maul" don't exist in the Wallaby vocab either.

The Southern Hemisphere Rugby historians themselves have trouble to remember when these words where used for the last time in this part of the world.

The problem is that the Carbon 14 dating process is not very reliable with old documents.

	23-10-2003 04:26									#159
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DP! And I blame Tamerlin!

Last edited by finbar on 23-10-2003 at 04:43

	23-10-2003 04:42									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Looks quite promising. Bit Green still.

To match the colour of the jersey he should be wearing by your own personal set of rules?

quote: You must admit surely that Smithy has had a trying season after his injury – and Waughy is a great lad but not the worlds greatest analyser of the game perhaps?

And your chap, thanks to injury, has played how many Tests in recent times? And you base your claim on his recent form? At training? Hyperbole is the enemy of reason.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH A maul... that's where you keep charging men in from the side until you can spin it to the try line isn't it?

Close. It's where biggish chaps - usually with one eyebrow between the lot of them, no neck, and usually no ears - come together to lumber in roughly one direction at roughly the same time as if someone had let slip that there's a free feed of pork pies going near their try line.

I'm sure Havak will be happy to confirm this.

	23-10-2003 05:02									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Havak with Robinson at fullback

It's interesting watching Robinson in action. I often have the feeling that, once he gets the ball, he has absolutely no idea which way his feet are going to take him. Thus neither do his teammates. He ran right away from his support a couple of times on Saturday.

quote: James – never good enough to wear a Lions shirt - I don’t think he even figures in the Welsh squad anymore.

I checked. He doesn't. That's why I asked.

quote: It was Henderson wasn’t it (12)? Not sure how he stayed on actually. On the plus side he made a similar hit on Austin in April that certainly kept the mouth away from Australia in the final cut. So not all bad then.

Yes, it was Henderson. I hadn't realised he'd tried to kill VD. All, then, is forgiven.

quote: Some pundits have hinted at it. I think it misses the fact that Koen received slow ball on his shinbones – and that Moody is both an excellent reader of the game and very very quick.

Gee, you'd get a job spinning for Tony With The Dikky Ticker. How good a reader of the game he is, or how quick he is, is irrelevant if he's offside. OTOH, if he'd done what he did from an onside position, the talents you cite would obviously become relevant.

quote: I’ll watch it again this evening and see if the ‘hint’ has any substance.

I suspect you'll find you accidentally hit the Pause button just as he left the offside position and accidentally released it again just before he crossed the tryline.

	23-10-2003 05:07									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The Southern Hemisphere Rugby historians themselves have trouble to remember when these words where used for the last time in this part of the world. The problem is that the Carbon 14 dating process is not very reliable with old documents.

Fact it. The average dullard, illiterate Australian thinks a maul is where they go shopping.

	23-10-2003 05:20									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Havak *Edit* There's a familiar name involved with Samoa I see - one Michael Jones, native born Samoan. Strange that as I clearly remember him scoring a try for New Zealand against England way back in 91 I think it was.

Yes, and only yesterday he joined the chorus asking the NZRFU to do something for the Pacific Island nations. And he remains the devoutly religious soul he always was when he declined to play matches on Sundays. He has removed himself from the coaching staff for this Sunday's match.

Tonight's Japan -v- Fiji match should be a corker. There will be runners charging from all directions. Japan's defence is stronger than the Fijians' - albeit obviously on the slight side - with the Fijians' defence spelled a-t-t-a-c-k. Fiji will still be missing Caucau. The Kiwi-Japanese halfback Miller marshalls his backline very well and I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see Japan come out on top.

	23-10-2003 05:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Fact it. The average dullard, illiterate Australian thinks a maul is where they go shopping.

You are a stranger in a strange land.

quote: The Kiwi-Japanese halfback Miller marshalls his backline very well and I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see Japan come out on top.

I agree, I think the Japanese should win this game. Their team is more consistent than the Fidjian's one, the half-fly is more constructive, their forwards are superior and the Japanese number 11 has dynamite in his legs.

	23-10-2003 05:45									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You are a stranger in a strange land.

Just get me out of here!

quote: I agree, I think the Japanese should win this game. Their team is more consistent than the Fidjian's one, the half-fly is more constructive, their forwards are superior and the Japanese number 11 has dynamite in his legs.

The Japanese also play as a team whereas the Fijians tend to run solo missions. I suspect the biggest threat to the Japanese is the Fijians' size and strength.

	23-10-2003 06:39									#166
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Just get me out of here!

You know you are welcomed in Toulouse where also plays one of the best European teams.

quote: The Japanese also play as a team whereas the Fijians tend to run solo missions.

This is what I was trying to say when I used the word consistent... I guess "complete" would have been more appropriate.

quote: I suspect the biggest threat to the Japanese is the Fijians' size and strength.

I don't think so, they have demonstrated in their previous games, including against the French ( ), that they can resist the bigger players thanks to their will and energy.

	23-10-2003 07:51									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You know you are welcomed in Toulouse where also plays one of the best European teams.

Yes, I know, but life keeps conspiring against me! I'm not going to get over there later in the year because I have this children's feature to write and Mrs finbar has a telemovie to produce! Between us, we're going to be tied up till about March! And why can't we increase the size of these s the same way we can the text!

quote: This is what I was trying to say when I used the word consistent... I guess "complete" would have been more appropriate.

No, "complete" wouldn't have made the point either! How about "structure"? The Japanese have it, the Fijians tend not to.

quote: I don't think so, they have demonstrated in their previous games, including against the French ( ), that they can resist the bigger players thanks to their will and energy.

Point taken. One danger for the Japanese is commiting so many players in the tackles. They all pile in, which can leave them vulnerable wider. Though the Fijians tend not to play with much structure, so they might not manage to take advantage.

	23-10-2003 13:11									#168
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quote: To match the colour of the jersey he should be wearing by your own personal set of rules?

In a way – the green I would like to see in him would be joined by red and white.

quote: And your chap, thanks to injury, has played how many Tests in recent times? And you base your claim on his recent form? At training? Hyperbole is the enemy of reason.

The last four in a row – and yes I am judging on just those four – in which he has been excellent.

quote: I'm sure Havak will be happy to confirm this.

Finbar’s description is not too far off.

quote: He ran right away from his support a couple of times on Saturday.

And in so doing had me (unfairly) screaming at the big screen “get with him”. I should know better.

The worst player I have ever seen for bamboozling his support is Wasale Serevi of Fiji. I swear this guy has no idea whatsoever what he himself is going to do next – he starts at fly half in Fiji’s game with Japan I think – try to catch him. His XVs game is crippled by a total inability to tackle – it can be very amusing.

quote: I checked. He doesn't. That's why I asked.

Okay he last played for Wales in the loss to NZ in 2002. He is now with the CelticWarriors franchise in Wales. No record of injury.

Ah…I think I have it – although the Lions, Bridgend and Wales played him on the wing he is actually a centre by preference – and quite good there apparently – but that wasn’t what Hansen wanted from him.

quote: Yes, it was Henderson. I hadn't realised he'd tried to kill VD. All, then, is forgiven.

Struck his knee at full sprinting pace and nearly ended his career – but not quite. Bad Rob bad!

His does have a *cough* over robust aspect to his game at times and that did surface on the Lions tour. Albeit that we were more sinned against than sinning naturally.

quote: OTOH, if he'd done what he did from an onside position, the talents you cite would obviously become relevant

Did I not mention I have taken Alastair Campbell’s job over?

I watched it again last night – I’m satisfied he was onside. It truly was diabolical ball from Joost.

quote: Yes, and only yesterday he joined the chorus asking the NZRFU to do something for the Pacific Island nations

It’s an argument that will never go away anymore. I don’t think the NZRFU covers itself in glory on this issue? Were I them I might feel some moral responsibility for bleeding the Islands of their best talent and giving them nothing for it. Most of these Island unions are nearly bankrupt I believe?

The RFU has many many faults – but it does donate both kit and coaching to the European minnows (not cash as far as I know).

By the way the RFU does not publish its books so the figure our Kiwi friend saw in that documentary for what they had spent on Jonno’s cosmetic surgery (Ł75 million) was pure journalistic conjecture.

quote: Between us, we're going to be tied up till about March!

This could be taken out of context by unscrupulous swine!

I’m a little concerned that Jonno and Wilko seem to be insisting on playing every game – Samoa probably deserve that respect but I do hope he rests them against Uruguay – I want them fresh to face Wales (for it looks like Italy will struggle now?)

	23-10-2003 14:09									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Havak In a way – the green I would like to see in him would be joined by red and white.

M-hm. So you're down love-15. Hypocrisy.

quote: The last four in a row – and yes I am judging on just those four – in which he has been excellent.

M-hm. Love-30. Straw-clutching par excellence.

quote: I watched it again last night – I’m satisfied he was onside.

M-hm. Love-40. Self-induced myopia.

So you're down three break points. We await your next serve with interest.

	23-10-2003 14:10									#170
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quote: Yes, and only yesterday he joined the chorus asking the NZRFU to do something for the Pacific Island nations

Yeah that is a bit rank really. Samoa, Tonga and Fiji are struggling, part is due to clubs not releasing their players from contracts that had first call on their services, and the other part is the IRB eligibility rules introduced in 2000, which stop players appearing for one country then another.

quote: The grinning Samoan assistant coach said There has always been a close bond to New Zealand. Samoans see New Zealand as their big brother. In the past there has been give and take. Samoa didn't mind losing the Frank Bunces of the world, because we knew there was a group of 25-30 guys playing National Provincial Championship rugby. But now it is hard to see any reciprocity.

When players like Waikato fullback Loki Crichton are sitting at home watching the WRC when they should be playing in it, his club needs a swift kick up the arse.

	23-10-2003 14:28									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You are right. We should go home. I mean how could we ever hope to beat the ABs now eh?

See?
That wasn't so hard now was it?

'And the truth shall set ye free'

quote: There has always been a close bond to New Zealand. Samoans see New Zealand as their big brother. In the past there has been give and take. Samoa didn't mind losing the Frank Bunces of the world, because we knew there was a group of 25-30 guys playing National Provincial Championship rugby. But now it is hard to see any reciprocity.

It isn't much consolation I know, but its the same for many pro-sports leagues around the world. Clubs look after their players, pay their salaries and basically keep them in training. Small wonder that they often have a vested interest that often conflicts with National teams.

OTOH of course, they have a reason to cry foul when NZ players are released for AB duties while foreign players are not.

	23-10-2003 14:38									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s an argument that will never go away anymore. I don’t think the NZRFU covers itself in glory on this issue? Were I them I might feel some moral responsibility for bleeding the Islands of their best talent and giving them nothing for it. Most of these Island unions are nearly bankrupt I believe? The RFU has many many faults – but it does donate both kit and coaching to the European minnows (not cash as far as I know).

I don't think world rugby covers itself in glory on the issue. The trouble is, what exactly do you do? Kit isn't the problem, but coaching would help. Bringing them into the S12 - or another version of it, giving them regular serious competition - would too. You can't bar their players from earning a good living in overseas comps, and hurling money at their Unions to fund their players to stay and play domestically won't work either.

quote: This could be taken out of context by unscrupulous swine!

Yes, Mr should be along soon.

quote: I’m a little concerned that Jonno and Wilko seem to be insisting on playing every game – Samoa probably deserve that respect but I do hope he rests them against Uruguay – I want them fresh to face Wales (for it looks like Italy will struggle now?)

Scared a Samoan prop might fall on Wilko? I would be.

Frankly, Italy and Wales have been as bad as each other. Neither deserves to go through.

	23-10-2003 14:44									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog When players like Waikato fullback Loki Crichton are sitting at home watching the WRC when they should be playing in it, his club needs a swift kick up the arse.

Yes indeed. That's something the IRB can do something about. Or could, if they had the guts. The Australian s***** team faces the same problem having its players released from their foreign club duties. At least the international s***** body - whatever it's called - has some rules in place about player release for internationals.

	23-10-2003 15:06									#174
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quote: Originally posted by finbar That's something the IRB can do something about. Or could, if they had the guts.

For some reason I was under the impression that the IRB did take a firm stance on this and was to take action over the unions that did not comply, obviously they didn't have the guts.

Just attaching a newspaper clipping of what it feels like to be a saffa at the moment.

	23-10-2003 15:24									#175
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Yes, Mr should be along soon.

:disdain:

	23-10-2003 15:37									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj Just attaching a newspaper clipping of what it feels like to be a saffa at the moment.

	23-10-2003 15:58									#177
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Halftime score:

Fiji 16
Japan 13

The Fijians punished a couple of early Japanese mistakes with two tries, but the Japanese were starting to control the match towards the end of the half, with the Fijians making wholesale handling errors. Typically, the Japanese have come up with a brand new set of tactics - their scrum is shoving the Fijians around, they're passing the ball back inside and hitting it up, and they've even mounted several very successful rolling mauls. Two tries to one, and Miller potted a quite spectacular drop goal from 51m.

	23-10-2003 16:04									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj For some reason I was under the impression that the IRB did take a firm stance on this and was to take action over the unions that did not comply, obviously they didn't have the guts.

Well, as always, the real problem lies in England. Because the players in England are contracted to the clubs, not the RFU, and the RFU has absolutely no control over the English clubs, so what hope has the IRB got?

quote: Just attaching a newspaper clipping of what it feels like to be a saffa at the moment.

	23-10-2003 16:06									#179
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Halftime score: Fiji 16 Japan 13

Definitly going for the japenese on this one, it'll be good to see them get a RWC win.

	23-10-2003 16:11									#180
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quote: You can't bar their players from earning a good living in overseas comps

This is of course true. What you can do though is tighten up the eligibility regulations (even further) and make it impossible for them to represent a nation other than their own. Needs to be tried I feel.

quote: and hurling money at their Unions to fund their players to stay and play domestically won't work either.

I would have to agree.

Of course I take the contrary view to Andydog there – I feel they should only be able to play for their own country full stop – I suspect he wants the 2000 changes reversed so they can be All Blacks then Islanders again?

The issue of young lads taking work in NPC or S12 is fine – it should not be allowed to change their nationality though. Time to think about Seven year residency again. Any body who really wants to be an All Black will tough it out.

The Canadian coach was rattling on the other day about getting the pacific cup going again – and you know this has to be the way forward surely?

quote: Scared a Samoan prop might fall on Wilko? I would be. Frankly, Italy and Wales have been as bad as each other. Neither deserves to go through.

Heck yes I am scared – those Samoan boys are very physical.

You don’t fancy Wales to upset the ABs then?

quote: 'And the truth shall set ye free'

Confident for the Boks game are we?

quote: At least the international s***** body - whatever it's called - has some rules in place about player release for internationals.

Excellent point – it is up to the IRB to sort their act out on this. Unfortunately they seem to shy away form important decisions.

quote: Just attaching a newspaper clipping of what it feels like to be a saffa at the moment.

Now you know how the Taffs feel all the time.