19-10-2003 03:52									#121
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no, you misheard. those were os9 users.

FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD.....

	19-10-2003 05:34									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ideally yes. But it makes no sense for AAC to be so much better than mp3 (like Nice Guy says) and for only Apple to be using it! If that is the case, then it would make sense to say that Apple is refusing to licence it out. Or, contrary, that AAC isn't really that great.

OGG is much better than mp3 and, unlike mp3/wma/acc, it's free. I can count the number of oggs I have that I didn't rip myself with my fingers.

	19-10-2003 05:40									#123
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo OGG is much better than mp3 and, unlike mp3/wma/acc, it's free. I can count the number of oggs I have that I didn't rip myself with my fingers.

There's a freeware .ogg plugin for itunes (both win and mac)

	19-10-2003 05:44									#124
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because .ogg is free and open source.

	19-10-2003 07:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Asher MP3, AAC, and WMA are all proprietary standards. OGG is an open standard. And AAC isn't the successor to MP3, MP3 Pro is. WMA and AAC are both far more advanced than MP3, unfortunately WMA is more advanced than AAC and also far cheaper. WMA is the cheapest of the three to use, AAC is the most pricey, and MP3 is in the middle. That's the reason all of the DVD, CD, etc. players coming out support WMA rather than AAC. In addition to AAC costing the most to license for portable MP3 players, the AAC files Apple uses use their proprietary DRM which means they won't play on standard AAC players. The portable audio players won't pay for and add AAC support when basically the only market for AAC is iTunes, and Apple won't license out iTunes' DRM for others to use. Hence only the iPod supports, and likely will support, AAC. Everyone else will support WMA in addition to MP3, and maybe OGG. Apple's slowly but surely going to screw themselves out of the market with this policy, like they've done with the Macintosh.

I stand by my word. Or else you're gonna have to prove it.

	19-10-2003 07:47									#126
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Hmm....I'll use Winamp 2. Thanks

	19-10-2003 07:48									#127
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There are some people who still don't get it. The iTMS exists to sell ipods. Dell's service will exist to sell their players. Selling online music at 99 cents a pop is not going to make you money. Allowing yourself to be undercut by allowing third parties to make cheap knock offs of your player is not advisable.

Apple isn't making much money from the store and they have 70% market share (no doubt more as of Thursday).

The labels are laughing since Apple and Dell are basically going to distribute their product for nothing in order to shift their own hardware.

Anyway, as I said, the ipod is the undisputed #1 mp3 player on the market and accounts for over half of all money spent on mp3 players. That's a good enough user base for the iTMS.

	19-10-2003 07:58									#128
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quote: and Apple won't license out iTunes' DRM for others to use.

Again, I'd love to see you actually prove this. Repeating it just doesn't do the trick.

quote: So, really, why do you guys find it so hard to believe that Apple doesn't want to license out the iTunes AAC and DRM?

I don't find it hard to believe. I just know that the evidence doesn't support the definitive statements on your part, which reeks of your typical dishonesty.

quote: It's not Apple's to license out AFAIK. What Drake is talking about is the particular DRM software called Fairplay. Not all AAC files utilise fairplay (for example, the ones you rip yourself).

Exactly. AAC is an open standard, unlike WMA, so Apple can't restrict who it is licensed out to. They can refuse to license out their proprietary DRM scheme (Fairplay) though, although there hasn't been any indications of what the plan to do on that front yet. We will find out soon enough, as I would guess other MP3 player manufacturers are going to be begging for the ability to play iTunes Music Store bought tracks soon.

	19-10-2003 08:11									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And AAC isn't the successor to MP3, MP3 Pro is.

You're right. AAC Audio is actually the successor to MPEG-2 Audio. I was quoting that from memory so, oops.

quote: Apple's slowly but surely going to screw themselves out of the market with this policy, like they've done with the Macintosh.

Statements like that will end this debate between you and I prematurely. You could be much less harsh if you don't mind.

	19-10-2003 08:21									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Hmm....I'll use Winamp 2. Thanks

I've never seen the attraction of that particular interface nightmare.

There used to be a mac clone of it called Audion which was just as bad.

	19-10-2003 08:26									#131
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quote: I stand by my word. Or else you're gonna have to prove it.

ok, mr nice guy:

re: .mp3 / mp3pro proprietary standard; licensing fees
http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/index.html

In 2001 Thomson announced the arrival of mp3PRO, the next generation of mp3. mp3PRO offers two key advantages: enhanced sound quality and improved compression. It provides 128kbps performance at a 64kbps encoding rate, thereby bringing genuine CD quality and enabling Internet broadcasters to lower their bandwidth costs.
http://www.mp3licensing.com/mp3/mp3pro.html

conclusion: mp3pro is the official successor to the proprietary mp3 format. the only reason its popularity exploded and why it's considered an "open" format is because some hackers released a free version of the encoder/decoder, and because you can see the standard without paying for it at first. to actually use the standard, you have to pay up.


---

re: .aac proprietary standard; licensing fees

MPEG-4 AAC has been specified as the high-quality general audio coder...Apple Computer has incorporated MPEG-4 AAC into QuickTime 6 and iTunes 4, as well as the latest version of its award-winning iPod portable music player...These exciting platforms represent the state of the art in audio coding—and Via Licensing is pleased to offer the MPEG-4 AAC Patent License Agreement.
The MPEG-4 AAC standard incorporates MPEG-2 AAC, forming the basis of the MPEG-4 audio compression technology for data rates above 32 kbps per channel. Additional tools increase the effectiveness of MPEG-2 AAC at lower bit rates, and add scalability or error resilience characteristics. These additional tools extend AAC into its MPEG-4 incarnation (ISO/IEC 14496-3, Subpart 4).
A copy of the MPEG-4 Audio standard can be purchased from the ISO online store (search for "14496-3").
http://www.vialicensing.com/product...c/standard.html

An MPEG-4 AAC patent license is required for manufacturers or developers of complete (or substantially complete) end-user encoder and/or decoder products, or for manufacturers/developers of component encoder and/or decoder products that are provided directly to end-users.
http://www.vialicensing.com/product...html#WhoLicense

Yes. There is an initial fee of $15,000 due upon execution of the license. This is a one-time payment and not an annual fee.
http://www.vialicensing.com/product...#AACUpFrontFees

The AAC Patent License Agreement grants patent rights only. There are no deliverables other than a license to practice the patents of the AAC licensors.
http://www.vialicensing.com/product...Q.html#included

The patents of Fraunhofer related to AAC are licensed by Dolby Laboratories Licensing Corporation, together with the patents of AT&T Corporation, Sony Corporation and Dolby Laboratories Licensing Corporation.
At http://www.dolby.com/trademark/index.html we found:
"For questions concerning Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) licensing, please send email to Advanced Audio Coding Licensing Administration, AACLA@dolby.com".
We believe that some of the patents of Thomson are also used in AAC:
ep0193143b1 (Grouping of values, suppression of signal compression below thresshold)
ep0251028b1 (Masking threshold covering more than one group)
ep0277613b1 (Masking threshold in adjacent groups)
Note: This list is not exhaustive; other patents of Thomson might be used.
http://www.mp3licensing.com/other/index.html

conclusion: aac is not the official successor of the .mp3 format, but rather the successor to mpeg2 aac. it is not an open standard because a company owns all the patents and controls who licenses it--and one must pay to obtain the standards. apple cannot license it because it is not the same company that owns the patents. apple cannot give what it does not own, else it would be hated like sco.

---

re: wma proprietary standard; licensing fees

i'm not going to bother with this one. should be obvious.

---

re: .ogg open source standard; no licensing fees (as of yet)

If you decide to sell your music in MP3 format, you are responsible for paying Fraunhofer a percentage of each sale because you are using their patents. Vorbis is patent and license-free, so you will never need to pay anyone in order to sell, give away, or stream your own music.
http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp#artist

Again, there are no licensing fees for any use of the Ogg Vorbis specification. As a commercial developer, you are free to create and sell (or give away) open or closed source implementations of Vorbis encoders, decoders, or other tools. However, if you use our software rather than writing an independent implementation, you must respect the terms of the license. Our libraries are available under our BSD-like license and can be used whole or in part by closed source applications.
http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp#com

The benefits of a patent-free, license-free format outweigh the concerns of making money directly from the format. The Vorbis format will always be free and in the public domain. Xiph.org is investigating a variety of models for funding development, some of which may include licensing non-free Vorbis-related programs and libraries to commercial projects. Nevertheless, the reference encoder and decoder will always be open source and third parties will always be free to modify or reimplement them.
http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp#money

conclusion: ogg is an open-source alternative format.

	19-10-2003 08:29									#132
	Suffering from ads?

Anyway, here's some advice for Windows users who might want to install it.

Read the ****ing instructions. There are no end of people complaining that it re-sorts all their mp3s into a new set of folders and messes it up for other players.

Make sure you uncheck the "organize itunes music folder" section before you drag and drop files or disable it during the initial setup. (this is the #1 complaint AFAICS)

If you are using Win2K and have Adaptec's Easy CD Creator and Direct CD installed, either uninstall them or don't install itunes. Apparently there is a software conflict that causes some problems (or wait a week or so for a fix). At least that's the word from users on Apple's site.

For everyone else it seems to pretty much work OK.

	19-10-2003 08:30									#133
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Q Cubed - he just admitted that in a previous post. All that work for nothing.

	19-10-2003 08:36									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I stand by my word. Or else you're gonna have to prove it. re: wma proprietary standard; licensing fees i'm not going to bother with this one. should be obvious.[/url]

Boy we sure are lazy today. j/k

Show me the $$$!!!

	19-10-2003 08:38									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Q Cubed - he just admitted that in a previous post. All that work for nothing.

Um, I was only referring to my mistake about AAC being a successor to MP3 Ag.

	19-10-2003 08:42									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Exactly. AAC is an open standard, unlike WMA.

No.

	19-10-2003 08:42									#137
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Oh, I almost forgot. I've got to work on polishing my lines for the church play tomorrow morning.

Goodnight everyone.

	19-10-2003 08:44									#138
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quote: Q Cubed - he just admitted that in a previous post. All that work for nothing.

x-post, but also to argue against his claim that aac is an open format. he only admitted that aac was a development of mpeg2-acc, not mp3.

so, ag, it's not 'wasted effort'.

	19-10-2003 08:45									#139
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and as far as effort goes... if googling the formats, clicking on the first link, and then going to the faqs is too much effort...

	19-10-2003 08:46									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Q Cubed - he just admitted that in a previous post. All that work for nothing. x-post, but also to argue against his claim that aac is an open format. he only admitted that aac was a development of mpeg2-acc, not mp3. so, ag, it's not 'wasted effort'.

Some people use "open format" to mean an open standard like CD Audio. Others use it to mean open source as in GPL.

Confusing, yes...

	19-10-2003 08:47									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and as far as effort goes... if googling the formats, clicking on the first link, and then going to the faqs is too much effort...

Calm down....

	19-10-2003 08:59									#142
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dude, i'm not angry or not calm. i'm just pointing out that it wasn't much effort. google makes everything easy.

	19-10-2003 09:06									#143
	Put an end to popups!

(sigh) you know what i hate about dialup? it's sloww...

in any case, an open standard, as i'm defining it, is one where you can study the standard and not pay to use it. one where you can develop your own implementations.

a proprietary/non-open format is a format where you must license it to use it in an ecoder or decoder legally. it doesn't matter if you can read about the standard if you can't actually use it. therefore, it's proprietary, and not open.

what makes apple's aac even more proprietary is that they've modified the aac format they use to have drm; so not only does anyone who wants to use their accs format have to license it from them, they also have to obtain the licenses to the basic aac format. therefore, it's not an open standard.

if we went by the definition you seem to be using, in that open standard means anybody can read it, then you cuold consider word .doc open--but they're not. that's why openoffice can't always open up a .doc file flawlessly--they made an implementation of something that can almost decode it, but they don't have the last few bits that microsoft owns and keeps to itself. thus, though anyone can see the encoding of a .doc file, it's still proprietary.

	19-10-2003 09:55									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed what makes apple's aac even more proprietary is that they've modified the aac format they use to have drm; so not only does anyone who wants to use their accs format have to license it from them, they also have to obtain the licenses to the basic aac format. therefore, it's not an open standard.

No. All a company would have to do is license the AAC and use their own DRM.

	19-10-2003 10:01									#145
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By the way, everyone here keeps talking like AAC belongs to Apple, but in reality the company that invented and patented AAC Audio is not a part of Apple at all, but an independent subisidary of Dolby Technologies.

http://www.vialicensing.com/who/

So the good thing here is that right now Apple happens to be the only company that is a licensee of the AAC format. Other companies have yet to license their use of the new format.

Last edited by Mr. Nice Guy on 19-10-2003 at 10:11

	19-10-2003 11:58									#146
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quote: No.

What an in-depth response.

	19-10-2003 13:28									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What an in-depth response.

I only had 30 seconds, and Q Cubed already addressed it.

Mr Nice Guy: I've told you months ago AAC was Dolby's, it's actually a slightly modified Dolby Digital 2.0. All of this talk about AAC being really advanced is weird, it's older than MP3 by a few years. Just requires more computational resources to encode and decode, and wasn't available on the PC until recently.

The problem is thus:
AAC is proprietary to Dolby, who charges a significant licensing fee.
Apple's DRM is proprietary to Apple, who has yet to license it to anyone whatsoever (since some people here are being naive enough to think that unless a press release is issued saying they'll be *******s, Apple will of course license it out).

So I have to say that the people who call AAC an "open" standard are mindless Macheads who once again fall far short of being remotely correct in the world of technology.

	19-10-2003 13:31									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy No. All a company would have to do is license the AAC and use their own DRM.

What good would that do, seeing as any songs from iTunes would not play, and the only people who use AAC are Apple and iTunes.

There is a demand for codecs far more powerful than MP3. AAC and WMA are the alternatives: AAC is expensive and not as advanced (and not being developed anymore), while WMA supports much more features and still gets developed, while being significantly cheaper and having much wider industry support.

WMA is the logical choice, Apple chose AAC because no one else did and their entire business model is based around using iTunes to lock in potential buyers for the iPod. So using AAC makes perfect sense for them. Doesn't mean it's a smart move from a consumers' point of view, but Apple and Apple's customers don't seem to care about that.

	19-10-2003 14:44									#149
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quote: So I have to say that the people who call AAC an "open" standard are mindless Macheads who once again fall far short of being remotely correct in the world of technology.

This sures makes me wonder why all the tech articles I've been reading on the subject refer to AAC as an "open" standard. Of course, even people who write about this stuff for a living can't be right if Asher says they aren't...

	19-10-2003 15:50									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: So I have to say that the people who call AAC an "open" standard are mindless Macheads who once again fall far short of being remotely correct in the world of technology. This sures makes me wonder why all the tech articles I've been reading on the subject refer to AAC as an "open" standard. Of course, even people who write about this stuff for a living can't be right if Asher says they aren't...

Sad and pathetic isn't he.

Here's more ammunition. Evil psychopathic Apple did not develop Fairplay; it was developed by a company called Veridisc http://64.244.235.240/ and licensed by Apple.

(don't go to veridisc.com - it's a site devoted to pornographic torture - ugh).

Although I may be mistaken, what little info there is at this site suggests that Fairplay is available for licensing to other third parties.