23-10-2003 13:57									#1
	Succession Game Proposals Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I note that Old n Slow has mooted: "my next suggestion for a succession game was simply a D+1, B+1, & I was planning to offer it circa Christmas or the New Year."

I have been thinking about a "Cambridge Game" - the only rule being that every city of size 3 or greater must either be celebrating or have at least half of its inhabitants acting as Elvi. [Note for non-Brits: Cambridge University is light blue as opposed to Oxford - the dark blues]

We have Sore Loser's ideas on the table -- are there any more out there?

Stu

	23-10-2003 14:32									#2
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How about forcing Cambridge to build both the maritime wonders and only allowing the cities to be named after colleges? I don't know how many colleges there are, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find a list. Maybe 15 or 20 or so....
Compulsory libraries before size 3?

How about a Starbucks game? It'd have to be on an archipelago map and you're allowed two cities on your home island (Seattle) and then one for each opposition civ on their islands. These island cities would have to be well defended, or you'd have to go around and keep all your neighbours sweet. Until 1500 or so, when you have to try to buy as many other cities as possible and then take the rest by force (capitals obviously).

	23-10-2003 14:53									#3
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From what I've read here (started posting just over a month ago, I think) the purpose of succession games is to add weird rules to enhance the challenge of the game, giving you an excuse to yell at one another when you misinterpret the current factors. These rules can be whimsical, or they can simply be severely restraining, like the Tricky Sticky game. That's why I posted my ideas here, hoping to stir interest in a different way of playing. I'm obviously disappointed that there doesn't seem to be much interest, but if that's the general notion then I'll stop trying to force them on you.

*cries a little more in his corner*

	23-10-2003 18:08									#4
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*Stop crying in that damned corner or I'll give you something to really cry about!*

We're just after new ideas to make the games fun without needing wholesale changes to the Civ 2 script, and also those that allow ample opportunity for "robust constructive criticism", improving everybody's game.

	23-10-2003 18:19									#5
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*stops pretending to feel sorry for self, as it doesn't seem to have the desired effect*

And how do my ideas differ from the criteria of making the game fun and improving your game? What's wrong with wholesale changes anyway? I'm going to start calling you all conservatives anytime soon if I don't get a proper answer (and don't you think I don't mean it).

	23-10-2003 19:49									#6
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.... so?

at 56 years of age I'm entitled to be conservative!

Stu

	23-10-2003 19:59									#7
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Generally speaking, isn't conservatism awfully boring? Not changing your mind just because it's been that way for a long time? I'm actually semi-serious. I'm very much in doubt about just about everything, and it doesn't exactly make my life easier. But I find that it keeps me curious and capable of incorporating opinions.

	23-10-2003 20:02									#8
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Loser,

Didn't you say in another context that you don't actually like to play the game, you just like to tinker with the rule sets???

Change for change sake is a trait more in keeping with the "let's go wave the bloody shirt" crowd. To you revolutionists everyone else must be a conservative--not that that is a bad thing.

As for your demanding an answer, perhaps you can't handle the truth. Or should I say TRUTH.

(Cue the strings and the Cartman voice)

We love THIS game; to us it is a near Holy Thing. Why else do you think IT still holds such appeal after all these years?!? A truly wise, if overly polite STYOM has said, "I'm not sure I'm interested in re-learning how to play civ with new rules, so as to participate in one succession game... sorry." I say, STOP with this Blasphemy; Return to your Catechism and the True Path!!

(Dialing back the strings from the big finish) Such radical changing of the rules has been tried--cough-CIV III-cough--and the result was distasteful. Having been previously burned, we, perhaps conservatively, say, "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

(on the off chance that your new game is exciting, engaging, and fun... )

Monk

	23-10-2003 20:04									#9
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We could have a party political Succession. Two parties play, with a member of each taking alternate turns. One party concentrates on the conservative parts of the game, going for SS landing, and the other goes for conquest. You're not allowed to break treaties though.

	23-10-2003 20:21									#10
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How about a scenario with which we are all familiar? The WWII scenario as the Turks, for example?

Or have La Fayette and Xin Yu beaten all those scenarios to death with ridiculously fast conquest times?

	23-10-2003 20:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Loser, Didn't you say in another context that you don't actually like to play the game, you just like to tinker with the rule sets???

You misunderstand slightly, I may not have been clear on this. I often enjoy tinkering MORE than I enjoy playing, but obviously tinkering with rules is only fun when I get to play with them afterwards

quote: Change for change sake is a trait more in keeping with the "let's go wave the bloody shirt" crowd. To you revolutionists everyone else must be a conservative--not that that is a bad thing.

So you acknowledge being conservative?

quote: As for your demanding an answer, perhaps you can't handle the truth. Or should I say TRUTH.

I know you're only being 97% serious, but I get terribly excited and lusty for blood whenever someone presents truth when discussing opinions.

quote: We love THIS game; to us it is a near Holy Thing. Why else do you think IT still holds such appeal after all these years?!? A truly wise, if overly polite STYOM has said, "I'm not sure I'm interested in re-learning how to play civ with new rules, so as to participate in one succession game... sorry." I say, STOP with this Blasphemy; Return to your Catechism and the True Path!!

Being the son of a vicar, being labelled a heretic gets me even more excited. There's no way I'm going to shut up now

quote: (Dialing back the strings from the big finish) Such radical changing of the rules has been tried--cough-CIV III-cough--and the result was distasteful. Having been previously burned, we, perhaps conservatively, say, "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

Ah, but something's always broken. Sometimes you just don't look hard enough to find it

quote: (on the off chance that your new game is exciting, engaging, and fun... )

I disagree slightly that this is a new game, but I'll concede that it's a radical variant of CivII. Was CivI great? It was ground-breaking and amazing beyond imagination at the time. Could it be improved? Certainly, and we got CivII. Would you have preferred to stay with CivI?

This is getting a tad melodramatic. All I've asked for is one game, not your souls (although of course I'll take those too, if offered). I can't force anyone to have fun, or even try something out to see if it's fun, but where does that leave me? Should I simply accept the fact that my ideas are not desired by the conservatives of the world and run with the rest of the pack? I've run into this discussion numerous times before, though I must say this one is more qualified than usual.

	23-10-2003 20:51									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits .... so? at 56 years of age I'm entitled to be conservative! Stu

Loser,

Also, 56; also conservative (mostly ), and also entitled, I wish to add, for the benifit of our obviously young friend, this old bit of wisdom...

"Wise counsel for the angst filled youth has always been, 'He who is lost should ask direction of those who know the way.'"

Or the more modern version, "Been there, done that, can show you the scars."

Monk

	23-10-2003 21:13									#13
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But if you're conservative by heart (little to do with politics in this context), are you able to absorb new impressions as fully? Does the path you wandered on work for me? In short, are you as capable of adjustment or creativity?

	23-10-2003 22:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sore Loser But if you're conservative by heart (little to do with politics in this context), are you able to absorb new impressions as fully? Does the path you wandered on work for me? In short, are you as capable of adjustment or creativity?

I hope you put this quote in a bottle and look at it again in about 10 years. Then you too will

By the way, one of the great advantages of being old and stuck in my ways, and incapable of recognizing the importance of anything new is the ability to discern the difference between creativity and a needless diversion. But, clearly, that "path" does not "work for" you. Try doubting more, especially your judgements.

Enjoy your self and your game.

Monk

	23-10-2003 22:43									#15
	Got spare money?

*bottles the quote*

Isn't it a bit preposterous to claim to know the difference between creativity and mere diversion? As I see it, creativity is only appreciated after it has produced something, rarely while in the creative process.

quote: Enjoy your self and your game

Thanks, but that's exactly where the problem is. Having fun by yourself is rarely much fun at all...

	24-10-2003 01:31									#16
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Stu,

We played a game some time back where we homed near the N Pole. There was a lot of ice, mountains and swamp, and for a time, another civ sharing our space.

I have often thought about a start on a small island, very isolated with bad terrain, mountains and ice. Play as purple with no tech start, no neighbors, with conquest as the objective. Make up the rest to make it interesting. Having an extremely bad start would be an interesting challenge, I think.

The main problem is the hundreds of starts it might take to get something really difficult. Someone would have to open each start to make sure it suffices but then he would then know the map. I would do that if I could, but, that's out for now.

It could be called "The Start from Hell Game."

Monk

	24-10-2003 01:40									#17
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Giving the ai a few Uber unit opportunities might also be interesting (re my comment in another thread.)

I don't know how the ai would go about choosing it's unit mix with adjustments, so it may be a non event or a serious challenge.

	24-10-2003 01:48									#18
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Also, we could play a game as the wanderers.

First round of play everyone must found (at least) a city.

Second round of play, everyone must disband (at least) one of those first (six, seven, eight) cities -- so we better be founding a few more (hopefully we founded a few extra to keep a capital if we want or an SSC.) Also, we'd better be out conquering because --

Third round of play each player must disband a former ai city or raze an ai city.

A variant might be a slowly increasing amount of cities permitted in play with some new ones added and old ones discarded along the way.

	24-10-2003 02:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Stu, We played a game some time back where we homed near the N Pole. There was a lot of ice, mountains and swamp, and for a time, another civ sharing our space. I have often thought about a start on a small island, very isolated with bad terrain, mountains and ice. Play as purple with no tech start, no neighbors, with conquest as the objective. Make up the rest to make it interesting. Having an extremely bad start would be an interesting challenge, I think. The main problem is the hundreds of starts it might take to get something really difficult. Someone would have to open each start to make sure it suffices but then he would then know the map. I would do that if I could, but, that's out for now. It could be called "The Start from Hell Game." Monk

I remember starting that succession, and thinking, "Ha! This'll be a real challenge." Of course, once we found the AIs, it was relatively easy. Blackclicking helped. Being able to circumnavigate along the pole was a help, too.

I think Julius B started a 'Sailing' succession game that began on a tiny island, and that's a similar concept.

I'm not just indulging myself in fond memories here - I have a map that I'm working on that should be trickier - not impossible, of course, but trickier. If there's enough interest, I'll work on that map tonight and be ready to post a start in relatively short order (and after I play my turns in the Horde game, of course).

	24-10-2003 02:32									#20
	Remove this text

STYOM,

Yes, that game left many fond memories.

There was a small island within Trireme range that eventually linked to a big land mass also with Trireme range. That needs to be fixed so that AI contact does not come easily or soon.

Then there was the trade bombing which made research too easy. Maybe forbid trade with the AI.

Monk

	24-10-2003 02:56									#21
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Another possible title...

It may be a Dirthole, but it is Home to me


Monk

	24-10-2003 02:58									#22
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My lips are sealed... I don't want to give too much away about the map, in case there's demand for the game. But, I did consider those issues and I think they're solved.

	24-10-2003 11:28									#23
	The AI is a paper tiger suggestion Get a bigger avatar today!

In the silly rules game, we are finding that at least one of our silly rules has been extremely restricting. Is there scope for a continuous revolution game? Once a new form of government is discovered, there must be a revolution and change of government every OEDO year. It would probably need another restriction as well - no temples or cathedrals?

RJM at Sleeper's

	24-10-2003 18:24									#24
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Sore Loser -- I don't think anyone here objects to new approaches, but the Succession forum is pretty much dedicated to strategic learnings via behavioral restrictions and varying leadership approaches.

I thought my play was progressing nicely after buying Civ2 MGE, but I've learned much more, much more quickly, through these sxn games. And made new friends. And had great fun.

And that's the point.

There'a a Scenario League for folks who like to play with rules.txt.

	24-10-2003 19:48									#25
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Sorry to butt in on all the fun, but can we please stop arguing with SL and suggest some succession game variants?
He's suggested one that would appear to have been rejected, but can everyone come up with more and/or comment on those (others) posted so far?

Ta.

How about:
Having to manage your city workers so that they use the maximum number of shields with the bare minimum of food for the workers to survive? This would make your science very slow indeed and mean that although you could build vans really fast, they wouldn't give a great pay-off on arrival. The choice of city sites would be very important so that you could get to use shielded grasslands, plains and other squares you can develop for trade arrows.

	25-10-2003 07:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Sore Loser -- I don't think anyone here objects to new approaches, but the Succession forum is pretty much dedicated to strategic learnings via behavioral restrictions and varying leadership approaches. I thought my play was progressing nicely after buying Civ2 MGE, but I've learned much more, much more quickly, through these sxn games. And made new friends. And had great fun. And that's the point.

This captures how I feel about succession games better than any of the points outlined elsewhere in this thread, including my own.

Well said.

	25-10-2003 07:50									#27
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So, should I start working on that map?

	25-10-2003 08:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man So, should I start working on that map?

I hope you do. Someday I may be able to play again and those ideas sound like the map would be a good challenge.

Monk

	25-10-2003 14:55									#29
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quote: Someday I may be able to play again

Someday very soon we all hope and pray ...

Stu

	25-10-2003 17:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits quote: Someday I may be able to play again Someday very soon we all hope and pray ... Stu

Agreed.

I'm glad to see you posting again, Monk. I hope that means your condition is improved.