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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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1. I find it interesting that Europeans who are atheists, and in some cases members of officially and militantly atheist political parties, dont quite "get" the issue.
Without judging the legal question one way or the other, to my way of thinking this is less about the Americans being mad, or having extermist atheists - this more about the American mindset in relation to law and the Constitution - we are, I think a more legalistic society than the states of Europe - certainly than the civil law states of the continent, and to some extent even than Great Britian. We are attached to our common law rights to a day in court, as the fundamental way to achieve justice, in a way Europeans are not. While this sometimes leads to laughable litigation, its difficult to say that the European approach of using bureaucratic means to achieve social justice has proven superior.
In addition, we ( or many of us) are very attached to the notion of SEPERATION of church and state. While dear to athiests, perhaps, this doctrine is not at all inconsistent with a VERY religious society. It is less the product of European style anti-clericalism than with the politics of very religious dissenting protestants taken to their logical extreme. The US, with its "wall of seperation" is a far more religious (and yes, Christian) society than the states of Europe with all their crosses.
This is NOT entirely coincidence, as noted as far back as the time of Alexis De Toqueville and Karl Marx.
2. Wouldnt doves and multilateralists be more hostile to teddy bears, seeing as theyre named after Teddy Roosevelt
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
LOTM:
The only arguable point of the Atheists mentioned in the opening post (and I suppose that's the point you refer to when you're talking about legalism) is the fact that local communities pay for the maintenance of these memorials. ndeed, in such case it's somehow about the separation between church and State.
However, if these communities don't discriminate between memorials according to a religious basis, it doesn't strike me as a matter of separation bw Church and State.
It seems to me that the atheists' position is less legalist than simply hostile to religious displays. As far as it looks, the State hasn't built these religious symbols, and as such I don't really get the ruckus about it. Save maybe that these extreme atheists would like to live in a society where they never get to see a cross?  |
There are folks here in the US who want to put up creches, crosses and other religious symbols in front of city halls, in court houses, etc as a way of expressing that the America IS Christian. Atheists, most Jews, and many Christians who affirm a wall of seperation between church and state oppose this. The Wall of seperation doctrine (which not all accept as a proper interpretation of the "no establishment of religion clause in the 1st amendment) means just that - NO state support for religion, NOT equal treatment of all religions.
Now obviously the folks who put up crosses on stated owned highway right of way where theyve lost a loved one are NOT trying to make a religious political point. The question is legally how do you allow one person to put up a cross on a state owned highway right of way, and not allow someone else to put one up in front of city hall?
"Save maybe that these extreme atheists would like to live in a society where they never get to see a cross? "
No one in the US expects to not see a cross in SOCIETY- where many (not all) of us do NOT want to see a cross (OR a hanukkah menorah, or any other religious symbol) is on the property of the state. Thats a distinction we take quite seriously over here. And not only by the anti-religious among us. As a religious (but not Orthodox) Jew, it is quite striking to me how the identification to the state with Orthodox Judaism has corrupted Orthodox Judaism in Israel, and brought all of Judaism into disrepute among Israelis. Similarly my knowledge of European history leads me to see the strong anticlericalism present in much of Europe directly to the firm alliance traditional between church and state prior to the 20th c. I think the US takes religion as seriously as it does precisely because weve kept religion unentangled with the state. While we (Americans!) can all disagree on the extent of it, I think the general principle of seperation is not an anti-religious one, but a PRO-religious one.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 28-10-2003 at 02:49
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
LOTM:
The only arguable point of the Atheists mentioned in the opening post (and I suppose that's the point you refer to when you're talking about legalism) is the fact that local communities pay for the maintenance of these memorials. ndeed, in such case it's somehow about the separation between church and State.
However, if these communities don't discriminate between memorials according to a religious basis, it doesn't strike me as a matter of separation bw Church and State.
It seems to me that the atheists' position is less legalist than simply hostile to religious displays. As far as it looks, the State hasn't built these religious symbols, and as such I don't really get the ruckus about it. Save maybe that these extreme atheists would like to live in a society where they never get to see a cross? |
Its about placement on state property:
"But these are up all over the place. They're shrines set up on public property everywhere and people really don't have the right to do that."
"They get to be extreme. They get to be more than just, let's place a bouquet of flowers where there was an accident," Johnson said. "These become permanent memorials...and it becomes a mission for these people to advertise where no one else can advertise. It's become less about the original situation and more about putting up an advertisement and that's the problem."
I would note in this context that somewhere in ISTR Maryland (or was it Delaware? Or New Jersey?) along Interstate 95, one of the busiest highways in the US, there is a giant statue of the Virgin Mary, "our lady of the highways" placed by IIRC, the order of Francis De Sales. Whats different about that, you may ask? Its ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. Which is sacred, you understand .
Now I suppose if you look forward to a society in which there IS NO private property, you might think that people who want to keep religious symbols off state property are people who want a religion free society. That, I think, is the source of confusion.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski
Nope, they're just pissed at seeing crosses EVERYWHERE, and people saying "God bless ____" and Xmas, and Easter, and St Patrick's Day. For an athiest its HELLISH having all this Christian stuff hanging around. If you are a Christian, imagine it the other way round - living as a Christian in an Athiest world. People would laugh at you for giving Xmas presents etc...
Walk a mile in the other guys shoes... (most atheists were brought up as Christians, so they have already seen the others side)
-Jam |
I'm an atheist. I think any of the atheists that are bothered by this are morons. They have freedom of religion, just like you have freedom of, ummm, not-religion. Plus, I get presents on xmas and candy on easter, so I don't see any reason to stop them 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:31
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http://palmbeachpost.printthis.clic...Y&partnerID=491
quote:
High school senior came 'out' - and was expelled
By Elizabeth Clarke, Palm Beach Post Religion Writer
Saturday, October 25, 2003
JUPITER -- Jeffrey Woodard's parents never took him to church. They certainly didn't ever plan to send him to a religious high school. But when he was 14, Jeffrey asked his mom if he could attend Jupiter Christian School. He told her he felt God leading him there.
Carol Gload liked the idea. She thought it would help Jeff spiritually and academically, and he started after Thanksgiving of his freshman year. As a senior this year, he was especially looking forward to singing in the choir and Bible class.
But on the third day of school, his Bible teacher -- who is also the school chaplain --pulled him out of class with a personal question. Jeffrey said the teacher assured him they were having a confidential conversation, and then asked whether it was true that Jeffrey was a homosexual.
"I told him, 'Yes, I am gay,' " Jeffrey says. "I was just being totally honest with him because I don't lie."
Two days later, he was expelled.
In a short meeting at the school, he and his mother say, they were offered the options of counseling to change Jeff's sexual orientation, voluntary withdrawal or expulsion. The first two choices weren't acceptable to them, leaving only expulsion.
"I was just shocked," says Jeffrey, who was not public about his sexuality at school. "I just couldn't believe what I was hearing."
His mom is outraged -- and sad that her son had to go through this. She and Jeffrey filed a lawsuit against the school Tuesday.
"He was crushed," Gload says, tears welling in her eyes. "He was devastated. It was very hard."
But it's something that could happen at other Christian schools in Florida, even those that accept public money through the state's voucher program as Jupiter Christian does.
The law doesn't prohibit sexual discrimination at private schools, according to Howard Burke, executive director of the Florida Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, which represents 170 conservative Christian schools in Florida.
Schools that accept disabled students using vouchers must comply with a federal code banning discrimination based on race, color or national origin -- but not sexuality, he says.
"Christian schools do not have to compromise their biblical standards to accept a child on a voucher," Burke says.
The state Department of Education did not respond to repeated requests to confirm that.
Gload disagrees with Jupiter Christian's stance on homosexuality but believes the school is entitled to it. The policy, however, should be explicitly stated in the school's documents for students and parents to consider, she says. And she doesn't think it should be able to accept vouchers.
"I have trouble with them taking any nickel from my pocket to support their discrimination," she says. "If this is their policy, they need to put it out there."
Minding his own business
Even if what happened to Jeffrey was legal, that doesn't make it right, says Jamie Foreman, president of the Palm Beach County Human Rights Council, a watchdog group for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transsexual issues.
"Here we have a kid who was minding his own business," he says. "He had told a few confidantes, which is something we all need to do. And he was lined up and flushed out of the closet and expelled from school."
Forty-year-old Jupiter Christian School is a conservative, Bible-based school that is not affiliated with any church. About 630 students attend grades K-12; high-schoolers pay $6,575 a year to attend.
Sexuality is not addressed specifically in the student handbook. But the book does spell out behavior expectations, school President Rich Grimm said before the suit was filed. Parents and students agree to those standards each year in paperwork submitted for admission, he said.
The handbook's conduct code says students' goal should be obeying Scripture and that they should "practice courtesy, kindness, morality, honesty and consideration" with teachers, employees, fellow students and visitors.
It lists three reasons for automatic expulsion: bringing a weapon to school; threatening a teacher, student or administrator; or committing a felony.
Jeffrey did none of those things, he and his mother say.
Grimm couldn't comment, saying privacy laws prohibit it. The school -- like several area Christian schools -- does not have a separate policy for gay students. It handles all discipline issues individually, Grimm said.
"Obviously, the story you've heard is incomplete," he said before the suit was filed. "Unfortunately, we can't get into the details because of privacy laws and school policy."
Grimm posted a short note to parents, students and supporters on the school's Web site Wednesday. He said it was the only comment he could make on the lawsuit.
"Please know that we dispute many of the 'facts' in the claim, as some of this information contradicts our records and timeline," it reads in part. "We have faith that the ministry of Jupiter Christian School will be exonerated."
In a letter to school supporters released Friday, Grimm provided a few more details, saying the school went to "extraordinary lengths" to work with Gload and her son on several issues.
"Jupiter Christian School officials did not 'out' Mr. Woodard nor did we violate any request for confidentiality," Grimm writes. "Any allegation to the contrary is simply false."
Grimm also wrote that he believes the court will uphold the school's right to set its own rules. "The bottom line is that this lawsuit is a backdoor attempt at attacking our constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom and free expression."
Jeffrey, 18, admits he struggled academically last year. He failed Algebra II and Spanish II. But he and his mom heard nothing about academic problems or other disciplinary concerns in the 10-minute discussion before he was expelled.
The school offered Gload the chance to appeal the decision to its board of directors, but she didn't want to do that.
"I was told that he was expelled," she says. "That was the end of it for me."
Jeffrey now attends Jupiter High School. He's open about his sexuality there, unlike at Jupiter Christian. He's working to start a gay-straight student alliance.
And he wouldn't go back to Jupiter Christian if he could.
"I've been so much more positive since then," he says. "I've been feeling a lot better about myself. I don't fear coming out."
But those first days after being expelled were awful.
After the conversation with his Bible teacher, Jeffrey went right home and told his mother.
She already knew he was gay. He'd come out to her during the summer, after experiencing depression last year and eventually finding a psychiatrist who helped him accept his sexuality. That came only after he had prayed -- and had pastors pray over him -- for God to change his sexuality.
"Of course, none of it had worked," he said.
Jeff said his mom was great about accepting his sexuality.
"All she did was give me a hug and tell me she loved me."
Her reaction led him to tell a few of his closest friends -- about six people -- at school. But he had no plans to let anyone else know or to get involved in a relationship. He knew the school wouldn't approve.
He says he doesn't know whether those half-dozen friends told others or whether he was the talk of the school.
But someone told his Bible teacher.
A few hours after Jeffrey's teacher asked him whether he was gay, his mom got a phone call at home from Rachel Sanders, the school's dean of students.
She said they needed to have a conference -- before Jeffrey could attend the senior retreat set for early the next week. Gload asked whether she needed to bring an attorney, but Sanders told her, "it would not be that kind of conversation," Gload says.
On Sunday afternoon, they arrived on campus. Sanders greeted them warmly and told them Grimm wanted to join them. They went to his office.
Grimm started the conversation, Jeffrey and his mom say.
"It has come to our attention that your son is a homosexual and we'd like to know what you'd like to do about it," he said, according to Jeffrey and his mom.
That's when he provided the three options: help with his "problem," withdrawal or expulsion.
Gload told Grimm, "I don't consider being gay to be a problem."
Jeffrey said he wouldn't withdraw.
"I told them, 'I love this school. I love what I've learned. I'm proud of how I've been able to grow here, especially in my knowledge of the Bible. I don't want to withdraw from this school and I won't withdraw from this school.' "
Gload asked Grimm why her son couldn't simply complete his senior year.
"If you're asking us to accept him, we cannot do that," she says Grimm told her. "We have an image to protect."
That left expulsion.
Jeffrey's mom requested a letter citing the violations of school policy that led to his expulsion. The school handbook requires it, reading, "both he/she and the parents shall be notified in person and in writing as to the reason for the expulsion by the school deans."
Gload's brief letter doesn't provide that.
It reads: "As we discussed, this letter serves as official notice to you that your son, Jeffrey Woodard, is expelled from Jupiter Christian school effective immediately. Please contact Jennifer Ceppo in our enrollment office to facilitate transfer of Jeffrey's records. Please know that we will be praying for you and your family during this transition."
Grimm said he couldn't discuss the letter.
The lawsuit requests both clarification of the school's policy regarding gay and lesbian students and an official explanation of why Jeffrey was expelled. He will need it to apply to colleges, the suit says. Without it, schools might assume he was expelled for violence.
"I just want to know by whose definition of Christianity can you expel someone this way," said W. Trent Steele, attorney for Jeffrey and his mom. "He's a sweet kid, and I think he deserved better than this."
Asking for honesty
Jeffrey has been back to the school once, to pick up his shot records.
He's heard from friends that the rumor around school is that he was kicked out for being gay. His friends are mad, he says, but don't want to comment on the record.
His mom is still outraged.
"For as many years as Jeffrey has gone there, I heard what a wonderful kid he was and a positive role model," she says. "For them to think so highly of him and now just turn their backs on him is very hard."
Gload spent the first week after the expulsion upset and worried about her son's emotional health and where he would finish high school.
Now she just hopes that by speaking out, her family might help another child avoid a similar situation.
"I think this school needs to be honest about who they are," she said. "If I had known this was their policy, I never would have sent him there this year. That was the most devastating thing I've seen him go through." |
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28-10-2003 01:50
I'm happy to allow Christians to continue beliveing whatever junk they want. I know I'm saved from it though - escaped from the church 6 years ago 
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