28-10-2003 05:03									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asher, The church offered him a chance to go to counselling. To be consistent with their faith that has to be an option for anyone who is homosexual. Secondly, no one is forcing him to attend the church school. If he can't meet the terms, he ought not to go. Freedom of associate Asher.

I reckon you missed the important part of the school being funded by public money, no?

Freedom of assication is fine and dandy, but the second the school accepts public funding it should not discriminate against students who want to be there simply because somebody told the bible teacher he was gay...

	28-10-2003 05:06									#122
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So now we get to the real issue, not whether the child is being discriminated against but whether vouchers ought to be permitted in the US.

I say the vouchers do not violate the establishment clause because they are offered to all religious schools, be they Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

	28-10-2003 05:07									#123
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Is "freedom of association" shorthand for "keep those queers away from me"?

Whatever happened to the gay kid's freedom of association? Shouldn't he be allowed to associate with whomever he chooses (catholics, for example)?

	28-10-2003 05:08									#124
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Well, you are both misusing the term.

Freedom of association (actually it is assembly) means that the government cannot prohibit people from peacefully assembling. Doesn't mean that you have a right to "assemble" with someone (that person doesn't have to "assemble" with you if they don't want to).

	28-10-2003 05:14									#125
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* St Leo disowns the Maryland splinter group

I am also a pure atheist and this is irrational madness.

	28-10-2003 05:15									#126
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This thread is about teddy bears. Don't change the subject Asher. Do you object to cuddly, furry teddy bears placed along the road to honor dead children by Christians like mother Teresa or not? Yes__ No__

	28-10-2003 05:17									#127
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Okay, I might have stretched the point some...

	28-10-2003 05:17									#128
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FP:

Sure, so long as they also want to associate with him. Again, no one forced the kid to associate with the Catholics.

Skywalker, yes it is assembly, but I believe both assembly and association are used interchangeably.

	28-10-2003 05:30									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln This thread is about teddy bears. Don't change the subject Asher. Do you object to cuddly, furry teddy bears placed along the road to honor dead children by Christians like mother Teresa or not? Yes__ No__

It was a counter-troll. You showed a ridiculous atheist group, I showed a ridiculous christian group.

The fun part is many Christians see the teddy bear things as ridiculous but not the gay thing. C'est la vie.

	28-10-2003 05:32									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asher, The church offered him a chance to go to counselling. To be consistent with their faith that has to be an option for anyone who is homosexual. Secondly, no one is forcing him to attend the church school. If he can't meet the terms, he ought not to go. Freedom of association.

More krap from you, huh?

Homosexuals do not need counseling because being gay is inherently unstable or unhealthy.

If a gay guy or a lesbian needs counseling, it's more likely to help themselves come to terms with who they really are, and overcoming the fears of being who they are in a homophobic society.

	28-10-2003 05:37									#131
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I agree completely. Moreover, freedom of assembly doesn't even come into it, unlike Ben claimed.

	28-10-2003 05:50									#132
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quote: I showed a ridiculous christian group.

Eh, a Catholic school = ridiculous? Good luck getting the same agreement among Christians as Lincoln got among Atheists.

quote: Homosexuals do not need counseling because being gay is inherently unstable or unhealthy. If a gay guy or a lesbian needs counseling, it's more likely to help themselves come to terms with who they really are, and overcoming the fears of being who they are in a homophobic society.

If you recall my earlier post I never said anything about instability or health. Do gay people have special problems, that would cause you to mention these points?

I said that to remain consistent with their religious teachings they ought to offer counselling to anyone who is gay.

Skywalker, you have not rebutted my point on the constitutionality of school vouchers. I suggest you do so before further commenting on the application of freedom of assembily.

	28-10-2003 05:52									#133
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People can assemble with whom they please. That has NOTHING to do with "can a catholic school that recieves money from the government discriminate based on their religious teachings"?

	28-10-2003 05:52									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Eh, a Catholic school = ridiculous? Good luck getting the same agreement among Christians as Lincoln got among Atheists.

A Christian school that:
1) Asks a student if he is gay
2) Then immediately expels said student

is incredibly ridiculous.

I already predicted the brainwashed Christians would not see why this is ridiculous, but that's because you guys have no concept of scope and you're fundamentally biased to your "faith" and probably incapable of thinking about this rationally.

	28-10-2003 06:14									#135
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quote: that recieves money from the government discriminate based on their religious teachings"?

Now we are back to vouchers. Is a religious school allowed to teach what it believes, and allowed to act in accordance to those beliefs? Yes. Should these religious schools receive vouchers from the federal government? That's the question I put up. Constitutionally, there is nothing wrong with vouchers.

Asher:

2) Then immediately expels said student

I suggest you reread your source. He was not immediately banned, he was offered the choice to go to counselling and to remain in the school.

	28-10-2003 06:15									#136
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There goes Asher, again; with his rampant generalizations.

	28-10-2003 06:19									#137
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There goes Asher, again; with his rampant generalizations.

Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

	28-10-2003 06:23									#138
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I guess these extreme atheists want to find every way possible to attack religious people. They stoop so low as to attack improvised memorials created by families and friends of those who have died. For those atheists who are part of this stupidity -- fvck off.

I agree.

	28-10-2003 06:23									#139
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I doubt that very seriously.
At no time, while being serious, have I lumped a group of anyone together.

Except damned Mexicans. And Yankees. And Canadians. And..

	28-10-2003 06:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asher: 2) Then immediately expels said student I suggest you reread your source. He was not immediately banned, he was offered the choice to go to counselling and to remain in the school.

Give me a break...he was in counselling the year before, this is the outcome of it. He'd finally accepted it and was moving on.

By "counselling" they mean some form of brainwashing where they can attempt to convince him he's straight rather than gay. That's not a choice.

Would you go to "counselling" telling you God wants you to take it up the ass, or would you decline that "option"?

	28-10-2003 06:38									#141
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There goes Asher, again; with his rampant generalizations.

I only use them because they work.

	28-10-2003 07:21									#142
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Do you really want to know what I would do in his situation?

If I went to a Catholic school, and found some of their teachings to be against what I believe, the first thing I would do is to make sure that the teachers teach what they ought to be teaching.

Secondly, if it is not the teacher, than I leave.

Do I sue the school for not 'accepting' me? No.

This is called taking personal responsibility for your decisions. He chose to approach the Catholic school, and did not like the consequences of his choice, so he is going to sue.

It's the same with any church, everyone has to repent, no one's sin gets treated any differently. If you don't like it, than leave.

Don't let the door smack your butt on the way out.

	28-10-2003 07:26									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I want that on my tombstone

And so ends another inspiring episode of "Touched by an Atheist!"

	28-10-2003 07:35									#144
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*cough* that school isn't Catholic *cough*

quote: Forty-year-old Jupiter Christian School is a conservative, Bible-based school that is not affiliated with any church. About 630 students attend grades K-12; high-schoolers pay $6,575 a year to attend.

If this school were Catholic, it'd be violating the Church teaching prohibiting discrimination against homosexuals. Nice troll anyway Japher!

	28-10-2003 07:39									#145
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I need to make sure I miss that episode... But I did like the one where the little girl was dying and then she was "touched by an atheist." He read something from Darwin and then the little girl rolled her eyes and died. (It was quite moving). May she rot in peace...

	28-10-2003 08:06									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If you recall my earlier post I never said anything about instability or health. Do gay people have special problems, that would cause you to mention these points? I said that to remain consistent with their religious teachings they ought to offer counselling to anyone who is gay.

I know what your argument is based on, but in the context of that particular flawed argument, I thought you used the concept of "counseling" as a means to convert one's sexual orientation.

1) sexual orientation cannot be changed -- it can only be repressed/denied

2) non-heterosexual orientations are not inherently unhealthy as to require the so-called "counseling" I thought you were implying



But back to those unconstitutional teddy bears, cards, and flowers.

	28-10-2003 08:14									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

You forgot about Mr Lincoln, who said something about atheists offended by teddy bears.

	28-10-2003 08:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln "Our position basically is that we're against it (the memorials)," David Condo, Maryland state director for American Atheists, told CNSNews.com. "We don't think it makes sense from a driver's safety perspective, for one. If you're looking at a memorial or any other thing that's been put on the road, then you're certainly not looking at the road. If it's religious in nature it could also be offensive to anyone who just wants to use the road. So it doesn't make sense from a couple of perspectives."

While we're getting rid of things that are distracting, let's remove billboards. Especially since they could be offensive to just about anyone on the road.

	28-10-2003 09:10									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Verto While we're getting rid of things that are distracting, let's remove billboards. Especially since they could be offensive to just about anyone on the road.

oh excellent... while you are getting rid of those billboard things, could you by chance, please bulldoze any speed signs you come across.

thanks inadvance from an ever humble axe wielding rate payer.