02-11-2003 12:27									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi STYOM: Lighthouse gives unsinkable boats? Can't remember the last time I built that wonder. As for the Marketplace, I did plan to slow the build and work the sea tiles. So the next person will have to keep that in mind.

Yup - unsinkable Triremes would make moving around, easier. SG(2) was reputed to be the master of the Lighthouse/Sun Tzu/Magellan strategy - and LH was very popular in some succession games in the past.

MPE would be more key, IMO, if we didn't have mobility problems that needed to be solved first. If MapMaking comes via trade, then we may be outgunned in the wonder race for LH.

	02-11-2003 12:46									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

STYOM,

Trying to remember what open tech tree implies--it still requires one to have the necessary prerequisites, but makes ALL such techs available each time. Is this correct??

Is there a rule against using the "black arts" for over the horizon intelligence gathering??

Monk

	02-11-2003 12:49									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk STYOM, Trying to remember what open tech tree implies--it still requires one to have the necessary prerequisites, but makes ALL such techs available each time. Is this correct?? Is there a rule against using the "black arts" for over the horizon intelligence gathering?? Monk

Your interpretation of the open tech tree is correct

As far as blackclicking goes... I don't do it, and I prefer others not do it. But it's hard to police, so it's not expressly forbidden. And besides, it's a very big map

	02-11-2003 13:26									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

The Monk said the plain truth: if we stay stuck on this tiny island, we are toast

(hence the high priority to be given to LH)

	02-11-2003 21:35									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK - that's me up in this & Sticky Tricky ... this might be faster,

Stu

	02-11-2003 22:52									#36
	We are sailing (soon) Put an end to popups!

2000BC = Barracks swapped into Colossus - 12 shields lost - we will have the LightHouse!

Thucydides proclaims us the most unenlightened nation -

1800BC = 28 beakers in the box - workers moved out to sea so as to increase beaker revenue to 5/turn - this choice of Currency is going to cost us dear!

1600BC = Currency->Map Making; we remark that our new found skill is blue on the tech list ; Maps will cost us 60 beakers - this is 15 turns @ 4 which allows us some growth and brings the LH to within 25 turns at natural growth and with extreme measures inside 20 turns - this is the best I can manage ...

1400BC = Chinese undertake Pyramids; Carthaginians Colossus;

1050BC = Mongols undertake Colossus;

1000BC = Maps now 3 turns away; Colossus (LH) 13 turns, but in extremis we have over 35 wonder shields in the bank and the arsenal - we should be safe; For my money get thee to Monarchy now and start celebrating for the extra trade - but mayhap Republic is viable - I personally don't think so ...

Attachment: od_b1000.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	02-11-2003 23:45									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good turns Stu Probably LH is the best move, at the moment.

Play list:

1. Oldnslow
2. Ben Kenobi
3. SG[1]
4. Sore Loser (skipped if MGE not installed)
5. Jrabbit
6. La Fayette
7. Straybow
8...

Sore hasn't indicated for sure whether he can play yet, so Jrabbit is next.

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 03-11-2003 at 05:25

	02-11-2003 23:54									#38
	Suffering from ads?

Well and rightly done, Stu!!

And after LH, must get Magellan somewhat soon, for the call of the sea is irresistible. Must go a viking!!

@STYOM

Are you going to sit this one out?? It's true you've seen the map, but after the first few turn cycles, that memory will fade. You could come in at the end of the third cycle.... Just a thought.

Monk

	03-11-2003 00:06									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk @STYOM Are you going to sit this one out?? It's true you've seen the map, but after the first few turn cycles, that memory will fade. You could come in at the end of the third cycle.... Just a thought. Monk

I don't think I should play yet. Once we have done a bit of exploring, I will probably jump in at the end of the playlist. The first turns go pretty fast anyway, so it shouldn't be too much of an effort for the current participants to move things along.

	03-11-2003 01:13									#40
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In the (IMO unlikely) event of Maps coming in white - why do I suspect that our distant enemies in waiting have a substantial tech lead? We might consider keeping the big bronze statue as this is the only way we can concievably increase our tech rate in the immediate future - but that strategy would definitely endanger the LH - a brave man's course perhaps?

Stu

	03-11-2003 01:21									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: SG(2) was reputed to be the master of the Lighthouse/Sun Tzu/Magellan strategy

Near - Ivor loved the LH & Magellan - Sun Tzu doesn't work for ships - LH does that too! So you only need the two to enjoy the Super IronClad

Stu

	03-11-2003 01:23									#42
	Got spare money?

Which reminds me - in the days of triremes a Vet Trireme is virtually unsinkable - so the Power of the LH is even greater than most people think ...

	03-11-2003 01:27									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Sun Tzu doesn't work for ships - LH does that too! So you only need the two to enjoy the Super IronClad

Though I should have my head examined for questioning a master...are you sure of the above? I was quite certain that Sun Tzu's gives veteran ships after a successful battle.

* Sparrowhawk

	03-11-2003 01:41									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah - yes ! I believe that you are right, but after a successful battle - not on build as would happen for land units and as does happen for vessels built under the shadow of the LH

Stu

	03-11-2003 01:56									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits In the (IMO unlikely) event of Maps coming in white - why do I suspect that our distant enemies in waiting have a substantial tech lead? We might consider keeping the big bronze statue as this is the only way we can concievably increase our tech rate in the immediate future - but that strategy would definitely endanger the LH - a brave man's course perhaps? Stu

A dangerous but possibly smashing choice. Losing out on LH would be a disaster but we need more science output. A huge temptation, no doubt.

But I would not gamble on getting both. One or both of the Colossus builders will have map making and switch to LH if we build the Bronze guy first. Or so I believe. Looks like science will have to come from theft and plunder.

Our lack of discoveries also cautions against having anything to swap, much less gift for maps, if we go for MPE. Something to consider.

I believe Sun Tzu will give vet status to any unit that wins a combat.

Monk

	03-11-2003 02:06									#46
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmmm... bad guys having a tech lead? That wouldn't be fair, would it?

The Big Bronze Dude is a risk. If we don't get LH, our exploring will be kind of limited. I'm not sure what I'd do if Maps comes in as a white tech. Even if we got Colossus, what's to stop the AIs from switching to, say, Great Wall, and then back to LH when they get Mapmaking?

	03-11-2003 02:26									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

Personally, I think our better chance is to grab the LH first, then go for Colossus. If no Colossus, we grab Marco Polo.

Download complete...

	03-11-2003 02:49									#48
	Put an end to popups!

For what it's worth - I think that Marco is a chimera this game - we will have naught to swap and they will hate us...

	03-11-2003 02:50									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Personally, I think our better chance is to grab the LH first, then go for Colossus. If no Colossus, we grab Marco Polo.

An interesting path and probably the only way to have a shot at Colossus. And having MPE may be useful. But this will have the effect of delaying exploration. We will need a boat and a settler and just getting them will take time. Beginning to see the consequences of not having a second city.

From hard choices a life is built.

Monk

	03-11-2003 02:53									#50
	Tired of ads?

My choices would be LH and one of (in order) Colossus/HG/whatever's left.

	03-11-2003 05:17									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What, no canal site?

Colossus

Ahem, that's Emperor canal/Colossus lover, and sign me up!

	03-11-2003 05:23									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Straybow What, no canal site? Colossus Ahem, that's Emperor canal/Colossus lover, and sign me up!

Emperor, eh?

Consider yourself spam signed up

	03-11-2003 05:49									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Jrabbit

Glad to see that you go for LH

(imagine what kind of hell our life will be if we don't grab it )

	03-11-2003 07:38									#54
	Put an end to popups!

In a normal game, I consider LH a waste of 200 early shields, but this is different.

I really think Colossus is the best 2nd wow (if we can get a 2nd of the ancient wows), but plan to save commodity (not food) camels towards it. Cuz I agree that MPE will be of limited use. (Still, I like to know what the bad guys are doing, even if my diplomacy is blunted.)

I brought the work laptop home and have now emailed to the home iMac. Kon't know if I'll get to it tonight, but will try.

20 turns sounds like enough room to have some fun...

	03-11-2003 13:21									#55
	Tired of ads?

Sorry -Jrabbit -- no camels -- we don't have Trade yet and some kind of Government is getting to be kind of essential ...

	03-11-2003 15:34									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

I've been to my grandmother's funeral for the past few days, I'll see if I can get MGE to work tomorrow.

	03-11-2003 15:45									#57
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Can I share you peanuts please Monk?

Has anyone been tempted to forest the square in the far west of the island? You know, the grassland square that would hold a special if the whale was in the corner of a 4-special pattern. This could turn out to be a waste of lots of turns or it could be a vital boost to your empire's early days. Is anyone brave enough to take this risk?

Turning to other matters, I think you'd be foolish not to go straight for the LH and another government asap, ideally Monarchy. Once you have these then Writing and the ability to bribe opponents cities and amass an army of NONs. Having only one city in the middle of nowhere will mean that NONs are guaranteed!
Once you've got enough....

	03-11-2003 19:35									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

@ Sore - let us know when MGE is working, and I'll then readjust the list to have you next in line. For now Jrabbit is still up, since you were then (and may still be) MGE-incapable.

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Can I share you peanuts please Monk? Has anyone been tempted to forest the square in the far west of the island? You know, the grassland square that would hold a special if the whale was in the corner of a 4-special pattern. This could turn out to be a waste of lots of turns or it could be a vital boost to your empire's early days. Is anyone brave enough to take this risk?

I thought of that too. I honestly and truly don't remember the pattern (no, really! ). But I think that it's a bit of a waste of time now. If we still had the 2nd NON Settler, it could have been worth doing before adding him to Troy - but now we're committed to a Wonder. And as soon as we get MM, I say we should build a Trireme and a Settler ASAP and get off the island.

quote: Turning to other matters, I think you'd be foolish not to go straight for the LH and another government asap, ideally Monarchy. Once you have these then Writing and the ability to bribe opponents cities and amass an army of NONs. Having only one city in the middle of nowhere will mean that NONs are guaranteed! Once you've got enough....

One of the rules is no city bribe until Robotics

But unit bribe is ok. Amassing NONs is certainly OK (although this is a big map - we might have to travel far to be assured of NONs). I agree that LH and Monarchy are keys, at the moment. This isn't like a landbased OCC where we can wander and collect allies and huts (yet, anyway) so I think Republic might be more trouble than it's worth.

	03-11-2003 19:39									#59
	The Save -- 500 BC Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Pretty boring times. We have the Lighthouse and a Trireme a-sailing. Log coming shorthly...

La Fayette is up -- unless Sore Loser has MGE running...

Attachment: od_0500b.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	03-11-2003 19:49									#60
	Re: The Save -- 500 BC Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Pretty boring times. We have the Lighthouse and a Trireme a-sailing. Log coming shorthly... La Fayette is up -- unless Sore Loser has MGE running...

Good work Nothing like ending the debate on Colossus by building LH

Now I have to look at the save to see if the special pattern is revealed

La Fayette is next (Sore Loser follows, contingent on MGE working).

Play list:

1. Oldnslow
2. Ben Kenobi
3. SG[1]
4. Sore Loser (skipped if MGE not installed)
5. Jrabbit
6. La Fayette
7. Straybow
8...