03-11-2003 19:49									#61
	Tired of ads?

Yes, We'll want Map -- if for nothing else, to squeeze out a boat & see if we have a few more specials to work with.

But I'm guessing that the ai will have map so we can "trade" for it via MPE.

Of course we might hit Nav by the time we could complete our second wonder.

	03-11-2003 20:12									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here's the map, post-Jrabbit.

edit: here's why I'm not playing yet - I can remember the general direction of the next landmass.

	03-11-2003 20:13									#63
	20 Boring Turns Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It's 1000 BC and we are Hopeless. In desperation, a new tyrant is decreed -- the Evil Bunny.

Our lone city of Troy is a robust Size 4, boasting 3 warriors and a treasury of 82 GP. Currently at +2 GP/turn, techs at 15 turns. The Evil Bunny decides to save a couple turns in the building of our WoW by moving a worker into the forest. Rate = 20 turns.

Tant pis.

975 AD
950 AD
925 AD
900 AD -- We discover Map Making. Select from the following -- CereBurial (temples, pre-Monarchy), Horses, Masonry, Pottery (HG), Trade, WarCode, Writing (dips, pre-Republic).
Wanting dips and settlers on our boat, we foolishly choose Writing.
875 BC
850 BC
825 BC -- French start Pyramids
800 BC -- Carthaginians complete the Colossus of Carthage. Mongols switch to Lighthouse.
775 BC
750 BC -- Troy reaches Size 5. Elvis hired. Lighthouse purchased for last 24 GP.
--Chinese build Pyramids of Shanghai; French abandon their project.
--Machiavelli declares us to be Hopeless in the scientific arena.
725 BC -- Lighthouse completed. Mongols switch to Marco Polo.
--Trireme started. Tech rate = 18 turns.
--No growth possible with required Elvis. Should have taken CereBury.
700 BC -- Increment purchased. Carths start on Sun Tzu.
675 BC -- Another increment toward boat. Mongols start on Oracle.
650 BC -- Zulus start Hanging Gardens.
625 BC -- Chinese start Hanging Gardens.
600 BC
575 BC -- Trireme completed; explores immediate area. Sorry -- no sea specials. Settler started.
550 BC -- Trireme quasi-randomly decides to head west.
525 BC -- Increment purchased.
500 BC -- Chinese abndon Hanging Gardens project.
--The Evil Bunny retires.

Situation -- We are a couple turns away from Writing. Strongly recommend the next tyrant correct my mistake and grab Cermonial Burial next. We need a Temple!!

My plan was to send the empty trireme north for a turn or two, then head back home to pick up a Settler (1/2 done now) and a diplomat.

Let the robust revisionism begin...

	03-11-2003 20:43									#64
	Support Apolyton

Lots of good issues to address:

If we're size 5, should we Xin? Once the Settler is built, we drop to size 4 and pay support. If we don't find land soon, I suggest we Xin for science... hopefully to get to Monarchy faster.

It would be nice to have some better defenders in case the (non barb) AIs show up.

I agree with Jrabbit's self-RCC - CerBur was probably the better call, techwise.

Since someone else has already started HG, I don't think we can get it. We probably can't get any more wonders for a while, if we're busy building boats and Settlers. (and we definitely need those... hopefully we can send boats out with Settlers on them, then rehome the boats as soon as new cities are founded?)

	03-11-2003 20:54									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Good decision, whoever it was, to ignore the temptation of foresting for a 4-special!
Now things are a lot more interesting...
I forgot about the Roboticky mouse institute... good job I'm not playing, with such a firm grasp of the rules of this game.

	03-11-2003 21:04									#66
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Good decision, whoever it was, to ignore the temptation of foresting for a 4-special! Now things are a lot more interesting... I forgot about the Roboticky mouse institute... good job I'm not playing, with such a firm grasp of the rules of this game.

I suppose the grassland could be a hidden special, assuming the whale is the tail end of a special patten NW of us.... but we probably won't be able to tell for sure.

Just noticed Jrabbit's comment that there's no growth possible with the elvis... so Xinning is probably impossible

Someone get us to Monarchy please... or even Republic

	03-11-2003 21:07									#67
	Put an end to popups!

Correct. I wanted to do some xinning, but the need for an Elvis prevented that -- we are either unhappy at +2 food, or not growing at all with an Elvis. With only 2 food in the box, it just can't be done until we have a temple.

Thus, I went for the Settler as our next build.

No need for better defenders until we have more than one city.

	03-11-2003 21:17									#68
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

One city is safe from barbs, but not from AI civs.

I hope we can find Horseback Riding in a hut - just in case the Zulu battle fleet is bearing down on us.

	03-11-2003 21:28									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

One of my favorite maxims goes, "Pre-plans are best done before beginning." It is so easy to get lost in the moment.

We need a new gov't and we need to send multiple units to explore. That means Monarchy. Writing is a seductive distraction from the main path. (Even if Republic were chosen, a temple would be necessary.) Please, doesn't someone want to be King??

That said, "it" has only cost us a little time but we are going to be lagging a long while, I think. And the "laggingmorph" has performed ample self flagellation. So let's be proud of our diplomats and move on.

From here, I recommend building multiple settlers; changing the search to a spiral to open the map around Troy in all directions, and ICS where possible to get more arrows. Finding the closest landfall around Troy will keep the internal lines of communication shorter. Eventually, we will hit upon a larger landmass to where we can move.

Monk (Noticing there have been many intervening posts. Typing is slow going...sorry)

	03-11-2003 21:45									#70
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Monk (Noticing there have been many intervening posts. Typing is slow going...sorry)

No need to apologize... your suggestion of a spiral search pattern is good advice, and hadn't been suggested yet. I concur about the multiple Settlers. I'm tempted to build on the NW corner of the island, just so we have a place to support units from. At size 4 (which we'll be once the Settler is built), we can support 4 units for free. At that point, we'll have 5 units in place. Building more boats/Settlers will be hard to do... and there is food consumption to consider too. With a second city, deliberately kept fairly small, we could rehome some of the garrison in Troy and thereby support more exploring boats.

Going to Monarchy would reduce free support to 3, but we'd have extra food from the Grass tile and an extra shield from the whale, so it's still worth it, obviously.

I'm glad this game is generating such spirited debate

	03-11-2003 23:01									#71
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Personally, I'd like to see us go Rep for long enough to harvest a few settlers and get Troy to size 8. That, and the lack of support needed for exploring dips, is what swayed me away from CereBury.

Considering the lack of land, the necessity of away units, and the ruleset -- Not the best analysis.

So I guess we need to go CerBur, Monarchy. Then we need to find land and get Trade. Once we get into multi-continent trading, we'll be back in the tech race in fairly short order.

	03-11-2003 23:24									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

?Spiral Search? - good in theory - but once the immediate environs has been mapped - I'm not expecting much here - then I would advocate choosing a direction and sailing there ...

Stu

	03-11-2003 23:39									#73
	Full PM-box? Change here!

@Stu

Agreed. Once 10-15 clicks are opened around Troy. No sense in looking for paradise 100 clicks away before the close-in area is revealed. And hopefully, something will turn up and provide a second boat.

Monk

	04-11-2003 03:37									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Spirited discussion indeed -- I think I missed an entire page when I posted my Monday morning comment (and now it seems sooooo Monday Morning!)

Note that we can push for two extra tiny cities on our huge continent -- and boat (s) can make a set of spiraling actions -- not only for empty land but also for non-barb threats.

	04-11-2003 09:43									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow Note that we can push for two extra tiny cities on our huge continent -- and boat (s) can make a set of spiraling actions -- not only for empty land but also for non-barb threats.

I like the idea of the 2 extra cities a lot - once we have Horse Riding (making them defensible) we should do that. IMO. Right now, the prospect of barb Archers makes extra cities risky.

	04-11-2003 15:37									#76
	Got spare money?

As LF told previously: "If we stay stuck on that tiny island, we are toast". Therefore the one and only decision that is taken is to build triremes, nothing else, until a new island (or continent ) is discovered.

475BC: If our trireme goes on sailing west and discovers land some 10 turns ahead, it won't be much use. We MUST find land closer than that, which means some kind of spiralling. Our trireme now sails north.

450BC:

425BC:

400BC: New trireme completed; sails north.

375BC: LAAAAAND

Actually, it looks like a small island, but ... much better than nothing (we switch immediately production to settler)

350BC: 2 more small islands close to the first one

325BC: MOngols build Marco

300BC: Zulus build Gardens

250BC: Carths build Sun Tzu

175BC: VEII (1 square, 1 whale, 1 fish)

25BC: ANTIUM (3 shielded grassland, 1 fish)

1AD: 3 or 4 turns left to Cer Bur

Attachment: od_a1.sav
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	04-11-2003 15:58									#77
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Good turnset LaFayette - we may be able to start playing Civ by 1500AD or so

	04-11-2003 16:02									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Perhaps the very old man gave Robotics to one of the others civs and we can steal it and start to bribe people.

I don't approve of the spiral searching on a large scale. I've got a feeling we'd end up charting all of the seas and none of the land masses.
How far away are we from either of the two government techs? I've got a feeling that the first one to come along will be the best to pick, at least initially. I'd rather have Monarchy and then research Republic than sit around in Despotism for ages until we get the one we want. My vote is for Monarchy!
Er, I know I'm a dozy bugger, but what have we got on the exploring trireme? And exactly how badly in trouble will we be if barbs show up and sink it?

	04-11-2003 18:19									#79
	Put an end to popups!

Due to happiness issues, that trireme is empty.

Nice turns, LaFayette. What happened to our tech rate with 2 extra cities?

	04-11-2003 18:30									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Perhaps ... we can steal it and start to bribe people. I've got a feeling we'd end up charting... How far away are we from either of the two government techs? I'd rather ... we get the one we want. ...what have we got on the exploring trireme? And exactly how badly in trouble will we be if barbs show up and sink it?

We wonder why the duke didn't sign up to play...

quote: 1. Oldnslow 2. Ben Kenobi 3. SG[1] 4. Sore Loser (skipped if MGE not installed) 5. Jrabbit 6. La Fayette 7. Straybow

Sore Loser -- Any news of your MGE status?

	04-11-2003 19:18									#81
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I don't approve of the spiral searching on a large scale.

IMO you are wrong, because it is very important for us to know:
1) whether there are other islands nearby that we may be able to colonize soon;
2) whether there are whales or fish close to the islands already discovered (in order to choose wisely our FEW city sites).

IMO several players have been dreaming of rapid growth since we started this game and that is the reason why we are at 1AD and yet about 15 turns from Monarchy.

There are a few fundamentals in civ2, among which the necessity to:
1) get away from Despotism ASAP;
2) reach a minimal size that allows you to make projects instead of dreams.

	04-11-2003 19:41									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Looks like a great challenge.
I haven't got enough time to participate on this one, but I'll take a casual look to see how the Trojans fare

	04-11-2003 19:45									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit We wonder why the duke didn't sign up to play...

Bloody hell - this robust criticism isn't very constructive.


In order to defend myself against such a low blow then I shall have to put my name forward for inclusion on the list. If you'll have me, I can only play on Sunday mornings and then only for a couple of hours.
Don't expect me to be very reliable though.

	04-11-2003 19:50									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I see I'm the only one who actually looked at the save... well done, La Fayette Except the city names aren't very Odysseian

[evil laugh]Guess we didn't need Lighthouse after all[/evil laugh]

One advantage of the spiral search pattern is that if there is any land fairly close by, and we can build on it, the corruption won't be quite so terrible.

Straybow is up...

Sore Loser, can we get an update on your status?

	04-11-2003 19:59									#85
	Updated play list Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Play list:

1. Oldnslow
2. Ben Kenobi
3. SG[1]
4. Sore Loser (skipped if MGE not installed)
5. Jrabbit
6. La Fayette
7. Straybow
8. duke o' york.
9...

If there are no major objections we'll try to work around the duke's request to have the Sunday AM time slot(Meaning you'll probably be skipped after Straybow, assuming Straybow plays before Saturday, and then would play Sunday AM. Probably not every Sunday, unless we're playing very fast).

Julius, hope you can join in the next game

	04-11-2003 20:04									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Bloody hell - this robust criticism isn't very constructive. In order to defend myself against such a low blow then I shall have to put my name forward for inclusion on the list. If you'll have me, I can only play on Sunday mornings and then only for a couple of hours. Don't expect me to be very reliable though.

Thanks, for joining us, duke.

You are now authorized to use the plural personal pronoun.

	04-11-2003 20:06									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Leave room for yourself on that list once we've uncovered enough of the map. It'd be unfair to have you while we're still exploring, but once we've got far enough and you're confident your knowledge won't spoil the game then jump in!

-JR

	04-11-2003 21:11									#88
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Rest assured, I will be playing. Probably sometime in the 2nd cycle.

I knew where the nearby islands were, so I couldn't have played up to this point. But do a bit more exploring and I'll jump in, probably at a time when the next scheduled player is experiencing a delay.

	04-11-2003 22:22									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man well done, La Fayette Except the city names aren't very Odysseian [evil laugh]Guess we didn't need Lighthouse after all[/evil laugh]

1) Thank you!

2) I give full power to my successor for renaming Veii and Antium!

3) Oh yes, we are going to find LH very useful within a few turns (and Magellan on top of it, if we manage to grab it ).

	04-11-2003 22:39									#90
	Our Sad Technological Achievements Got spare money?

Alphabet - Old n Slow -
Bronze Working - Ben Kenobi -
Ceremonial Burial - LaFayette -
Code of Laws - Old n Slow -
Currency - Ben Kenobi -
Map Making - SG[1] -
Writing - -Jrabbit -

We need to make up our mind and get a government!

Stu

p.s. Note that all 'discoveries' are blue